India's Missile Defenses Can Now Take On Decoys. That's a Really Big Deal

[LeGenD]

How this is something which even americans can't do

Refer to you my post in page 5 of this thread: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...a-really-big-deal.572683/page-5#post-10715429

Normally what is the counter to such a system? i have read a bit about it ... no particular counter to this kinda technology is available so far.... other than the opposite side should also have the similar system to balance it

Special forces raid.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Refer to you my post in page 5 of this thread: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...a-really-big-deal.572683/page-5#post-10715429

Sir my question was can Americans distinguish between a decoy and a warhead using interceptor born iir sensor (in time)

Sir I'll love to known the name of such system if any No pun intended.

 

[amardeep mishra]

how can an iir sensor data determine the beta coefficient of all the targets in space.

Hi!
You sure can! Just read up some physics texts and you'll understand. I really find the level of STEM education among a lot of Pakistani folks really apalling. I am not saying all of the Pakistani folks suck at STEM education-- but majority certainly lacks the proper STEM education.
In case you do not know the ballistic coeff of a RV is defined as beta=W/(CD*A), so if a body has higher drag or lower weight, it will result in lower beta coeff. This will result in higher deceleration as can be seen in the picture below-

So if a RV and decoy has different beta(kindly note: beta here refers to ballistic coeff and not side slip angle and henceforth all usage refers to ballistic coeff only!), then it means they will have different decelerations. This different deceleration is enough for an IIR senor to pick. The one with higher beta will appear to be growing in pixel size much faster than the one with lower beta value. Image correlation is what will tell if one target is growing faster than the other in pixel size. This is almost always followed by centroid tracking.
Let me reiterate once again that two objects with same beta and same shape and size will be indistinguishable by IIR or even ground based radars.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi @GumNaam
I am afraid you're talking about MaRV- maneuvering RVs. I'd like to point out that MaRV is very different from MIRVs. MaRV does have capability to change course however realizing such a system is very complex. Only a hand full of countries have actually demonstrated a MaRV capability as against MIRV capability. In Indo-Pak scenario this is non starter because neither India nor Pakistan has demonstrated MaRV.
Also a MaRV is indeed a rocket science- a very complex indeed. The reason for that are manifolds, for instance in order to initiate even a slightest of turns at lets say mach 10(to avoid the interceptor) would put enormous pressure on the warhead structure. Since we are talking about MaRVs, it implies there will be some sort of terminal guidance strategy. This in turn implies that lateral acceleration based PN guidance suite will be used. The commanded lateral acceleration to meet the requirement of LoS should be within the structural limits. Now imagine making even a slight yaw of lets say 5degrees at mach 10 or higher.
In the case of India and Pakistan, we are concerned with either unitary warheads or MIRVs. And with every passing time, the interception capability of India is only getting better. For instance in this launch test there were a lot of new things-
1) There were fins on the nose
2) The interceptor was launched from a cannister.
3) The interceptor could for the first time discriminate between actual target and decoy.
Now the reason why interceptors can discriminate between target and decoy is because of "beta coefficient" of actual warhead and decoy. A decoy generally has beta coefficient different from the actual warhead. In order to make a decoy with beta coeff same as that of actual warhead one would need to fabricate the decoy in such a manner that it resembles the warhead in not only in shape and size but also "weight". The last criteria will restrict how many RVs a bus can carry and thus nullify the very purpose of MIRV.
I am actively working in nonlinear and intelligent control, GNC etc.

And finally, the huffpost article you quoted is not written by an "expert" but rather by someone who is from humanities and I take anything written by social activists with a pinch of salt. Here is that guy's linked in profile-
https://www.linkedin.com/in/asiainstituteculturetech/
As a final note, kindly learn to proof cite your comments.

And an marv does not evade interceptor like fighter does it just makes a few changes to its trajectories within its envelope to make trajectory calculations that much difficult.

Hi!
You sure can! Just read up some physics texts and you'll understand. I really find the level of STEM education among a lot of Pakistani folks really apalling. I am not saying all of the Pakistani folks suck at STEM education-- but majority certainly lacks the proper STEM education.
In case you do not know the ballistic coeff of a RV is defined as beta=W/(CD*A), so if a body has higher drag or lower weight, it will result in lower beta coeff. This will result in higher deceleration as can be seen in the picture below-
View attachment 492272
So if a RV and decoy has different beta(kindly note: beta here refers to ballistic coeff and not side slip angle and henceforth all usage refers to ballistic coeff only!), then it means they will have different decelerations. This different deceleration is enough for an IIR senor to pick. The one with higher beta will appear to be growing in pixel size much faster than the one with lower beta value. Image correlation is what will tell if one target is growing faster than the other in pixel size. This is almost always followed by centroid tracking.

ha ha ha drag means it already in atmosphere it will have to differentiate between decoy and warhead then achieve a weapons grade lock on the warhead its nearly impossible to achieve in time. Therefore no abm system uses it

 

[amardeep mishra]

And an marv does not evade interceptor like fighter does it just makes a few changes to its trajectories within its envelope to make trajectory calculations that much difficult.

Do you even know what you are talking? Kindly refer to good literature before engaging someone with some decent knowledge. MaRV can do terminal maneuvering provided it has got some sort of seeker attached to it.

ha ha ha drag means it already in atmosphere it will have to differentiate between decoy and warhead then achieve a weapons grade lock on the warhead its nearly impossible to achieve in time. Therefore no abm system uses it

Have you read the works on interception? I mean like really? I was specifically talking about indo-atmospheric interception. The test that India carried out was with respect to an indo-atmospheric interceptor-- hence it could differentiate between actual warhead and the decoy.

 

[LeGenD]

Sir my question was can Americans distinguish between a decoy and a warhead using interceptor born iir sensor (in time)

Sir I'll love to known the name of such system if any No pun intended.

American interceptors and/or EKV feature electro-optical sensors for target acquisition and discrimination. They also take cues from external assets across land, sea and space for target discrimination. Communications between these systems are instantaneous and seamless - billions of instructions per second.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi!
You sure can! Just read up some physics texts and you'll understand. I really find the level of STEM education among a lot of Pakistani folks really apalling. I am not saying all of the Pakistani folks suck at STEM education-- but majority certainly lacks the proper STEM education.
In case you do not know the ballistic coeff of a RV is defined as beta=W/(CD*A), so if a body has higher drag or lower weight, it will result in lower beta coeff. This will result in higher deceleration as can be seen in the picture below-
View attachment 492272
So if a RV and decoy has different beta(kindly note: beta here refers to ballistic coeff and not side slip angle and henceforth all usage refers to ballistic coeff only!), then it means they will have different decelerations. This different deceleration is enough for an IIR senor to pick. The one with higher beta will appear to be growing in pixel size much faster than the one with lower beta value. Image correlation is what will tell if one target is growing faster than the other in pixel size. This is almost always followed by centroid tracking.
Let me reiterate once again that two objects with same beta and same shape and size will be indistinguishable by IIR or even ground based radars.

The number of pixels on an iir sensor is function of the thermal properties of a decoy or a warhead which can be tweaked especially in case of decoys and Einstein you must have a base line do you know the rcs and thermal properties of our decoys and our warheads and do you know how many decoys can a shaheen ii rv dispense

American interceptors and/or EKV feature electro-optical sensors for target acquisition and discrimination. They also take cues from external assets across land, sea and space for target discrimination. Communications between these systems are instantaneous and seamless - billions of instructions per second.

The on board electro-optical sensor is primarily used to home on target in a layman's terms to keep the target locked. Till it hits it physically

 

[amardeep mishra]

The number of pixels on an iir sensor is function of the thermal properties of a decoy

@Fawadqasim1
No matter what you do, you simply can not reduce the heat signature of a RV travelling at mach 10. Did you even go through the graphs that I uploaded in my comments above? I see that you have no regards for the research literature?
I advise that you go through the last subplot in the graph that I have uploaded above, notice the energy variation in RVs with different beta. This energy variation appears as "heat".
Also lets not delve into the fancy realm, whenever you "make a claim"-- back it up with solid literature! Thanks in advance!

The number of pixels on an iir sensor is function of the thermal properties of a decoy

Sorry but the number of pixels is contingent upon the relative distance between the target and interceptor.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

@Fawadqasim1
No matter what you do, you simply can not reduce the heat signature of a RV travelling at mach 10. Did you even go through the graphs that I uploaded in my comments above? I see that you have no regards for the research literature?
I advise that you go through the last subplot in the graph that I have uploaded above, notice the energy variation in RVs with different beta. This energy variation appears as "heat".
Also lets not delve into the fancy realm, whenever you "make a claim"-- back it up with solid literature! Thanks in advance!

why doesn't the nozzle of a cryogenic rocket engine melt. Einstein

 

[hussain0216]

Ya but before that, our brahos will reach your missiles with flowers. If any of your missiles survive, it will be shoot down by India's multi layer BMD and then holocaust will happen exactly opposite to what it was intended

Nope

We have and are building multiple warheads, delivery vehicles and pushing for vital tech like MIRV and Cruise missiles for a reason

We are also incorporating BMD evading features within our ballistic missiles

We are confident of punching through any BMD you have.
Very confident!

what good comes from thinking about how to create a 'holocaust' of hindus/pakistanis?? war has no winners and you are just continuing cycle of hatred...

70 years ago we partitioned india because we did not trust hindus,
We were right not to

Nevertheless South Asia could have healed and moved on if it was not for india's greed in occupying a muslim majority kashmir. Pakistan freed a big portion of it but the remaining Kashmir is disputed territory and a direct consequence of what you see today

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Sorry but the number of pixels is contingent upon the relative distance between the target and interceptor.
Yes thats another factor but the hotest target even if it is a bit farther will turn on more pixels Einstein

 

[amardeep mishra]

why doesn't the nozzle of a cryogenic rocket engine melt. Einstein

That is because the nozzle is cooled by circulating the fuel along the contours of the nozzle-- This is a fact. However there is no such arrangement in RV-- to cool the surface of RV. Now either back your claim with evidence or stop making fancy remarks that are not rooted in facts.

 

[Chanakyaa]

why doesn't the nozzle of a cryogenic rocket engine melt. Einstein

"Nozzle" ?
My Goodness..... I guess you are unaware that in Space Launch, the Heat Sheild gets Separated much before the Last Stage Ignition.

Its beyond my imagination that how can you compare a rocket ( climbing upwards in a friction free space ) to an RV entering the Dense atmosphere ?

 

[wali87]

Very Elite of You... And a damn poor attempt. no one here cares about what Sanghi Idiots has to say except the Cinese and Pakistanis... and 5 decades back there was no Tejas to shoot Stealth even if it was there.... and even if there's a Mythical Stealth why Would Indians shoot down Indian made stealth Jets ....

Oh stop being humble sir. Jo hai woh toh hai. India did have spaceship and nuclear weapons thousands of years back. It’s all In your ramayan. Sharmaa kyun rahe ho maante huay.

 

[randomradio]

how can an iir sensor data determine the beta coefficient of all the targets in space.

The article is simply speculating wrong things.

The AAD has an RF seeker.

how can an iir sensor data determine the beta coefficient of all the targets in space.

Hi!
You sure can! Just read up some physics texts and you'll understand. I really find the level of STEM education among a lot of Pakistani folks really apalling. I am not saying all of the Pakistani folks suck at STEM education-- but majority certainly lacks the proper STEM education.
In case you do not know the ballistic coeff of a RV is defined as beta=W/(CD*A), so if a body has higher drag or lower weight, it will result in lower beta coeff. This will result in higher deceleration as can be seen in the picture below-
View attachment 492272
So if a RV and decoy has different beta(kindly note: beta here refers to ballistic coeff and not side slip angle and henceforth all usage refers to ballistic coeff only!), then it means they will have different decelerations. This different deceleration is enough for an IIR senor to pick. The one with higher beta will appear to be growing in pixel size much faster than the one with lower beta value. Image correlation is what will tell if one target is growing faster than the other in pixel size. This is almost always followed by centroid tracking.
Let me reiterate once again that two objects with same beta and same shape and size will be indistinguishable by IIR or even ground based radars.

In this test, the ground based sensor picked out the warhead from the decoys. The missile simply homed in on the warhead, so the seeker itself has little relevance here.

ha ha ha drag means it already in atmosphere it will have to differentiate between decoy and warhead then achieve a weapons grade lock on the warhead its nearly impossible to achieve in time. Therefore no abm system uses it

Was successfully demonstrated in the test.