Indians who deny Aryan invasion, please explain this

[Maira La]

Whatever that may be it proves there is no racial bias to upper caste/lower caste, no racial bias to be an Arya. Steppe migration might have occured as our DNA shows but that didn't define our definition of Arya, it's a very subcontinent thing to define people with high knowledge/social status, so is vedic society and it's rituals, all native to the subcontinent, nazis usurped this with their racist ideology.

In every state of India outside Punjab and Haryana (where the locals are more West Eurasian than brahmins because of waves of post-Aryan migrations), you will see same trend:

highest Steppe/Aryan in Brahmins
smaller amount in Mid castes
none to tiny amount in Dalits (the tiny amount got into them 'involuntarily')

You can choose to ignore this but that's the reality in more than 30 states of India.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Link?

There is no online text. You will have to download the book (pdf) from here:

Mahabharata e-book -Download complete Mahabharata PDF e-book

Here is the complete Mahabharata translated into English prose directly from the original Sanskrit text by Pratap Chandra Roy. Download the complete PDF e-book here for free.

holybooks.com

This is hard science backed by DNA test results, there is insurmountable evidence of Aryan gene flow into the subcontinent that can no longer be denied.

If you want to look that way, the NE people have vastly different appearance than other Indians. Does this mean they were natives? As I posted the snippet above, Chins, Kiratas (hybrid between Chins & Naras/Indians) existed even during Mahabharatha and lived with others. In fact, the kingdom of Pragjyotishya (Assam) which were filled with mongoloids (Chins & Kiratas) fought in Mahabharatha on the side of Duryodhana, showing how they were part of Indian empire despite racial difference.

However, even during Mahabharatha times, there was extensive contact between Europe and India. People like Yavanas and other Europeans are mentioned regularly. Naturally, people closer to the borders tend to intermarry and carry the genes across. That is why there is a difference of genes across regions. This does not make anyone outsider or insider/native.

Where in Mahabharata says Iranians call themselves Gandharvas? How do you know they are not one of the many competing Indo-Aryan tribes? How do you know it's not referring to Huns? To Kushans? To Hepthalites? To Sakas? To other Scythians? To Sogdians? To Massagetae? To Nuristanis? To a group of Dards?

There was no mention of Iranians anywhere. There were Yavanas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Naras and a few other races. The Huns, Kushans were empires/dynasties of certain kings rather than an entire race. All of them were of a mix of European & Turkic races.

@Smarana Mitra @gulli

With Vahaduo and publicly available data representing genetic composition of different populations (average based on multiple samples), I have modeled UP Brahmin and Chamar below (don't know if they are UP Chamar or Punjabi Chamar).

I have used Paniya (representing adivasi type ancestry), Iranian_jew (representing West Asian like ancestry mediated through IVC and BMAC) and Belarusian (to represent Corded Ware/Sintashta/Aryan ancestry).

The results speak for themselves. Compare the results to what I said in the OP. (I could also model each of you if you took a DNA ancestry test.)


View attachment 742050

Don't you think it is common sense that people's DNA changes according to region? Do you think the DNA of people in Assam is same as that of Bihar? Does it mean that Biharis are not natives? The DNA of population keeps changing over time as there are intermovements.
Let us take an example: Some Chinese came into Assam, became successful and settled there. Because of their success, people became attracted to them and wanted to have more relationship with them and many of them got multiple wives and produced a dozen children, all of whom were able to become adults due to access to family wealth. Hence their offsprings had higher success in breeding and over time the share of Chinese DNA increased in Assam. About 200 years hence, Assam got 15% of the DNA to be Chinese. Does this mean they are outsiders who invaded Assam? In older times, the population of the world was about 10% of what it is today. So, even if 200-300 people of a community became successful and settled in a place, over 100-200 years, their DNA would become widespread in that region. This in no way means anything.

You mean Pakistan.

Pakistan did not exist in the past. Even today, Pakistan has people with vastly different lineage. Baluchistan is mostly Persian Shia, KPK is mostly Afghan. Also, southern Pakistan (Sindh) and Pakistani Punjab was part of Indian empire, not Gandharvas.

That's what I thought, his "Gandharva" has something to do with Gandhara that we often hear about, I don't know why he keeps associating it with Iran.

That is because in the past Gandharva horses were extremely popular. There are no good varieties of horses in Afghanistan region of Gandhar. The good horses are mainly from Iran & Mesopotamia region. So, even though the Gandharvas existed from today's KPK, they also extended to the West Asia. Ancient Indian texts don't mention the western boundaries of Gandharva lands. Ancient Indian texts only give description of territory within India and not outside it. It only says that Gandharva kingdom existed across the North & Northwest of current day India. But the fact that Gandharvas were known for their horses and also that further west were kings of Yavanas, whom we know to be Greeks whose empire extended till Byzantine. Since no other race is mentioned between Gandharvas & Yavanas, it is only logical to consider that entire populaion of Mesopotamia extending to Central Asia, including Iranians, were Gandharvas. @Maira La this is why there is nothing called Iranian race. Iran is only a political entity, not a race

Also, nowhere in any ancient history before Asura Mahda (Zoroastrianism founder) there was any mention of Iran or Persia. Persia/Iran came to being only because of the cult formed around Asura Mahda. There was no real race of Iranians. Iran is only a political community rather than a race.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Well he is playing about on two things -

1. He is using a Hindu book as source of historical fact which is highly suspect.

2. He is playing that favourite Indian game where they close one eye and try to slip using Pakistan. Gandharva is not Iran. It's North West Pakistan but these Indians are so averse at even mentioning 'Pakistan' they will find other ways to hop around.

For instance it's like saying "that land north west of France and east of Ireland next to the North Sea". Ehh you mean "fcukin England". You get my point?

View attachment 742054

In other words, FALSE historical revisionism. These guys cannot accept reality especially when it doesn't suit their agenda............

There is no online text. You will have to download the book (pdf) from here:

Mahabharata e-book -Download complete Mahabharata PDF e-book

Here is the complete Mahabharata translated into English prose directly from the original Sanskrit text by Pratap Chandra Roy. Download the complete PDF e-book here for free.

holybooks.com

If you want to look that way, the NE people have vastly different appearance than other Indians. Does this mean they were natives? As I posted the snippet above, Chins, Kiratas (hybrid between Chins & Naras/Indians) existed even during Mahabharatha and lived with others. In fact, the kingdom of Pragjyotishya (Assam) which were filled with mongoloids (Chins & Kiratas) fought in Mahabharatha on the side of Duryodhana, showing how they were part of Indian empire despite racial difference.

However, even during Mahabharatha times, there was extensive contact between Europe and India. People like Yavanas and other Europeans are mentioned regularly. Naturally, people closer to the borders tend to intermarry and carry the genes across. That is why there is a difference of genes across regions. This does not make anyone outsider or insider/native.

There was no mention of Iranians anywhere. There were Yavanas, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Naras and a few other races. The Huns, Kushans were empires/dynasties of certain kings rather than an entire race. All of them were of a mix of European & Turkic races.


Don't you think it is common sense that people's DNA changes according to region? Do you think the DNA of people in Assam is same as that of Bihar? Does it mean that Biharis are not natives? The DNA of population keeps changing over time as there are intermovements.
Let us take an example: Some Chinese came into Assam, became successful and settled there. Because of their success, people became attracted to them and wanted to have more relationship with them and many of them got multiple wives and produced a dozen children, all of whom were able to become adults due to access to family wealth. Hence their offsprings had higher success in breeding and over time the share of Chinese DNA increased in Assam. About 200 years hence, Assam got 15% of the DNA to be Chinese. Does this mean they are outsiders who invaded Assam? In older times, the population of the world was about 10% of what it is today. So, even if 200-300 people of a community became successful and settled in a place, over 100-200 years, their DNA would become widespread in that region. This in no way means anything.


Pakistan did not exist in the past. Even today, Pakistan has people with vastly different lineage. Baluchistan is mostly Persian Shia, KPK is mostly Afghan. Also, southern Pakistan (Sindh) and Pakistani Punjab was part of Indian empire, not Gandharvas.

That is because in the past Gandharva horses were extremely popular. There are no good varieties of horses in Afghanistan region of Gandhar. The good horses are mainly from Iran & Mesopotamia region. So, even though the Gandharvas existed from today's KPK, they also extended to the West Asia. Ancient Indian texts don't mention the western boundaries of Gandharva lands. Ancient Indian texts only give description of territory within India and not outside it. It only says that Gandharva kingdom existed across the North & Northwest of current day India. But the fact that Gandharvas were known for their horses and also that further west were kings of Yavanas, whom we know to be Greeks whose empire extended till Byzantine. Since no other race is mentioned between Gandharvas & Yavanas, it isonly logical to consider that entire epopulaion of Mesopotamia extending to Central Asia, including Iranians, were Gandharvas.

Also, nowhere in any ancient history before Asura Mahda (Zoroastrianism founder) there was any mention of Iran or Persia. Persia/Iran came to being only because of the cult formed around Asura Mahda. There was no real race of Iranians. Iran is only a political community rather than a race.

The above source is NOT FACTUAL but conjectural/opinions...........

 

[Smarana Mitra]

In other words, FALSE historical revisionism. These guys cannot accept reality especially when it doesn't suit their agenda............





The above source is NOT FACTUAL but conjectural/opinions...........

What is factual? Is there anyone who has seen what happened even 1000 year back? Mahabharatha is a book written 5000 years ago. It has mention of the races and their approximate locations with respect to India. That is much more authentic than any other source

 

[gulli]

Jats and Ror are tagged 'avarna' and don't fit into the traditional Brahmin created caste hierarchy. They don't consider themselves low caste and Jats actually seem themselves as superior. Brahmins are genetically more native shifted compared to other Biradaris of Punjab and Haryana.

As a Jat my self I can tell you we have a surname which goes by the name Dhaka
N jat dont consider themselves as superior...
We love people who are free spirit n refuse to be slave..

 

[Maira La]

As a Jat my self I can tell you we have a surname which goes by the name Dhaka
N jat dont consider themselves as superior...
We love people who are free spirit n refuse to be slave..

Just said what I heard from some friendly Jats.

Let us take an example: Some Chinese came into Assam, became successful and settled there. Because of their success, people became attracted to them and wanted to have more relationship with them and many of them got multiple wives and produced a dozen children, all of whom were able to become adults due to access to family wealth. Hence their offsprings had higher success in breeding and over time the share of Chinese DNA increased in Assam. About 200 years hence, Assam got 15% of the DNA to be Chinese. Does this mean they are outsiders who invaded Assam? In older times, the population of the world was about 10% of what it is today. So, even if 200-300 people of a community became successful and settled in a place, over 100-200 years, their DNA would become widespread in that region. This in no way means anything.

Take the Assamese example and suppose those with lower or no Chinese ancestry are lower caste and untouchable. Suppose the division is not based on wealth but on Chinese ancestry. Suppose a wealthy person with low Chinese ancestry is still low caste. Then you would have a caste hierarchy based on Chinese ancestry in Assam, right?
That's exactly what happened in rest of India. Instead of Chinese ancestry what you have is Corded Ware / Sintashta in upper caste.

Baluchistan is mostly Persian Shia

 

[gulli]

Just said what I heard from some friendly Jats.

OK.. Its not a new thing with internet revolution everyone out there consider themselves superior to other. Most jat dont care for superiority, if you behave good we are best friend n once you are friend you will know what jats are you wont think of behaving bad..

 

[kris]

North Indian upper castes have about ~15-25% of dna that is similar to ancient DNA from Corded Ware people of Europe.

Lower castes and Dalits either don't have it or have very tiny amount (~1-3%).

Even the Rakhigarhi woman didn't have it (0%). Her aDNA had been analyzed by both Indian and foreign academics.

How do you explain this without some sort of Aryan invasion theory?

Links will be helpful
Source of this info also...
Ccmb Hyderabad conducted genetic studies of a good sample of population which concluded not much of genetic variation among Indians in sub continent

 

[Maira La]

Links will be helpful
Source of this info also...
Ccmb Hyderabad conducted genetic studies of a good sample of population which concluded not much of genetic variation among Indians in sub continent

That's laughable, India is a continent and probably has more variation than Europe and Middle East combined. You have people like Monipuris, Tamils and Khatri/Jats living in same continent.

There's ample resources out there to do your studies. Also refer to my post #24, there's some links there, I can provide more links later based on what you're looking for, I've had enough today, Peace.

 

[Jobless Jack]

Sanghi Chads powered by chaddis invaded Aryan land , beat the !@#$ out of the Aryans and then brought the Aryan beauties' back to Sanghindia !

Suck on that , you liberal !

 

[kongn]

Some hindu nationalists deny it because they are apprehensive of the british having used it for imperial justification and because dravidian nationalists sometimes use it .
Its very clear aryan migration happened.But there was no aryan invasion.There is no evidence of any destruction or war in indus valley cities.The ikshvaku suryavansh solar dynasty of rama and buddha was mixed as attested in the vedas.The father of ikshvaku was king of dravida.
Pauraravas,the originator of the chandravansh was also mixed.There is absolutely no mention of any aryan invasion in ancient tamil sangam literature,if aryans pushed dravidians south then this mass refugee migration should have had some mention in earliest tamil literature.On the contrary sage agastya - an aryan migrant is one of the fathers of tamil language.So there is nothing to bother about aryan migrations,many more recent migrations have happened - turks into anatolia,anglo saxons into britain -they are not bothered by it.Indians today are a mixed people not aryans,though some may have higher aryan ancestry.All hindu religious books were written in india,as are al religious places.Central asia has no mention.

As for caste - a three fold division into priests,warriors and commoners is found in most early indo european socisties.This was found among the persians and the sakas as well.The colours of the iranian flag are derived from the 3 castes - green for peasant,red for warrior,white for priest whether they realize it or not.
In india the aryans didn't create the sudra caste.They already came with with own commoners caste.Royal clans of the existing naga and other peoples assimilated into the kshatriyas ,whereas the vaishya caste was created in india.Possibly due to contact with traders in sindh or out of initial livestock traders who became more sophisticated,specialized and created guilds over time.Dalits are a later corruption from the late gupta period.Caste became corrupted and remains a problem.It remians a problem not because of some 3000 year old aryan thing but because it serves entrenched interests.Otherwise you wouldnt see caste being such a big issue in tamil nadu which is largely not 'aryan' and has zero brahmanic influence due to dravidian political domination.

 

[Hiptullha]

there is no racial bias to this high caste low caste, you can still be backward caste.

Backwards caste is a modern political term. Low caste isn't. You're in denial. Seek help.

 

[kongn]

i am a kirata ?? "degraded kshatriya" WTF ??

Depends on which timeframe they are writing it,by mauryan times kiratas become kshatriyas as they were serving as elite infantry bodyguards for mauryan emperor and mercenary units in his army.These designations shift from time to time and are meaningless.Magadha was earlier during kuru times called land of vraatya aryas or fallen aryans.But later when magadha became centre of classical brahmanical power under guptas western punjab which was then periphery became land of vraatya aryas.

 

[Hiptullha]

There is no evidence of any destruction or war in indus valley cities.

The Indus Valley is believed to have declined before the arrival of Indo-Europeans so of course there's little evidence of destruction or war in those cities.
The fact is that these "migrations" comprised mainly of roving groups of men from pastoral communities. The p*j**t claim that this is a peaceful migration is laughable. No other community in the world would argue this.

,if aryans pushed dravidians south then this mass refugee migration should have had some mention in earliest tamil literature.

No one argued this. Poor and pathetic attempt at misdirection.

In india the aryans didn't create the sudra caste.

No one said this either.

Dalits are a later corruption from the late gupta period.

I think this is true, but this doesn't disprove the fact that those lower castes have less steppe DNA.

 

[Indos]

One of the example of huge invasion of foreign people to some region also happen in Vietnam. Champa people which is believed to be originated in Indonesia/Malaysia of Kalimantan island become ruler in Vietnam for so long before native Viet can win the war and slaughter them and many are also running away to China or go back to Indonesian/Malaysia and large majority will likely spread in other SEA region