Indians who deny Aryan invasion, please explain this

[HAIDER]

North Indian upper castes have about ~15-25% of dna that is similar to ancient DNA from Corded Ware people of Europe.

Lower castes and Dalits either don't have it or have very tiny amount (~1-3%).

Even the Rakhigarhi woman didn't have it (0%). Her aDNA had been analyzed by both Indian and foreign academics.

How do you explain this without some sort of Aryan invasion theory?

Centuries-old white skin obsession .. I doubt. German ever visit India ..

 

[Sine Nomine]

@Talwar e Pakistan Kudos to you man,you just destroyed poor chap with knowledge.
@Indus Pakistan
You would always see Bharatis trying to run away from anything related to Gandhara,due to the fact that they can't claim it in any way and this region is strictly modern Pakistani heartland and is one hell of a civilisation,we always see them trying to steal Indus Valley badge from Pakistan but when it comes to Gandhara they became uneasy and try to go back to IVC.
P.S:-I am great fan of state of Gandhara which was adobe of our ancestors,they just made their IVC ancestors proud.
I even think that name of Pakistan should have been Gandhara.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Talwar e Pakistan Kudos to you man,you just destroyed poor chap with knowledge.
@Indus Pakistan
You would always see Bharatis trying to run away from anything related to Gandhara,due to the fact that they can't claim it in any way and this region is strictly modern Pakistani heartland and is one hell of a civilisation,we always see them trying to steal Indus Valley badge from Pakistan but when it comes to Gandhara they became uneasy and try to go back to IVC.
P.S:-I am great fan of state of Gandhara which was adobe of our ancestors,they just made their IVC ancestors proud.
I even think that name of Pakistan should have been Gandhara.

It indeed is. I am fascinated by Gandhara. It really is a proto-Pakistan crucible. The amazing thing is Taxila which was crucial in Gandhara is today just on the outskirts of the capital of Pakistan - Islamabad. And your right much respect to @Talwar e Pakistan who is without doubt master on the subject and I love reasing his posts.

 

[Sine Nomine]

It indeed is. I am fascinated by Gandhara. It really is a proto-Pakistan crucible. The amazing thing is Taxila which was crucial in Gandhara is today just on the outskirts of the capital of Pakistan - Islamabad.

As always Pakistanis have habit of missing mark from few inches.We built a new city in outskirts of epicentre of a huge civilisation instead of creating a link with our own civilisation we couldn't stop ourselves from dragging Islam into it and result is Islamabad.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

And your right much respect to @Talwar e Pakistan who is without doubt master on the subject and I love reasing his posts.

Glad to hear. I am currently working on a project that utilizes cutting-edge AI to generate photorealistic faces from Gandharan sculptures. Stay tuned.

 

[Anubis]

Arguing over aryan migration is laughable in this day and age really. The steppe people never stopped themselves from mixing with the natives, and here people are arguing about genetics with political agenda trying to create divisions in society. Who cares who has more or less steppe ancestry? People didn't even know such stuff existed before the British. I bet even the migrating steppe people didn't know that they are steppe people by the time they arrived here What's next really? Dravidian invasion theory about how they replaced the native south asian hunter gatherers? African invasion theory about the first humans in south asia, hence proving we are all just africans? Your identity is Indian, Pakistani, etc, not a or b% of xyz.

So does the caste system have any basis on genetics or is it completely artificial?

 

[Varunastra]

So does the caste system have any basis on genetics or is it completely artificial?

Ofcourse not, caste system was basically people's occupations, our ancient scriptures record incidents of people moving between castes due to their deeds. Later on it got rigid sadly due to myriad reasons including high class wanting to stay affluent . Nothing racist or genetics based about this.

Glad to hear. I am currently working on a project that utilizes cutting-edge AI to generate photorealistic faces from Gandharan sculptures. Stay tuned.


View attachment 742238

Awesome would like to know more about this, would hope the same research can be used for other south asian civs?.
Bydway Thank God no blue eyed, blonde haired steppe nordic many europeans will be dissapointed.

 

[Anubis]

Ofcourse not, caste system was basically people's occupations, our ancient scriptures record incidents of people moving between castes due to their deeds. Later on it got rigid sadly due to myriad reasons including high class wanting to stay affluent . Nothing racist or genetics based about this.

Awesome would like to know more about this, would hope the same research can be used for other south asian civs?.
Bydway Thank God no blue eyed, blonde haired steppe nordic many europeans will be dissapointed.

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations - PMC

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is an interesting read. They suggest probable genetic basis.
@Maira La don't know if you have already cited this.

 

[Varunastra]

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations - PMC

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is an interesting read. They suggest probable genetic basis.
@Maira La don't know if you have already cited this.

This trend of brahmins closest to europeans doesn't hold in all cases, like they mentioned their sample size is very small. There are many instances of castes lower than Brahmins having more steppe ancestry , some discussed previously like Rors.

 

[Maira La]

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations - PMC

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is an interesting read. They suggest probable genetic basis.
@Maira La don't know if you have already cited this.

Good find, but 2001 is like stone age in this field. There's been a lot more advances and research in this field proving this genetic basis.

Here's one of the most comprehensive recent study on South Asian genetics: https://scholar.harvard.edu/vagheesh/publications/genomic-formation-south-and-central-asia

You will see that caste, Steppe ancestry and AASI ancestry are super strongly correlated.

@kris

This trend of brahmins closest to europeans doesn't hold in all cases, like they mentioned their sample size is very small. There are many instances of castes lower than Brahmins having more steppe ancestry , some discussed previously like Rors.

I have already explained the case of Jats and Rors before. They are Avarna but do not accept Dalit tags. They are product of waves of post-Aryan migrations to Punjab. Thus the traditional Brahmin caste domination does not work in Punjab, as most other Biradaris are more West Eurasian shifted than Brahmins.

 

[Maira La]

But this is not the case. Dalits are children of muslims with hindu women. When muslims invaded some area, they killed the men and took the women as slaves. Children were born to these women who were muslims. But later, after a few years, hindus attacked this land, killed the muslims and freed the women. But these women already had children from muslims and hence these children were not accepted into the society by Hindus. They became Dalits. Being dalits has nothing to do with being non European. Even in the DNA results, it was for the tribals, who were not untouchables. Tribals just happened to live in forests and hence became backwards. There was no discrimination against them. If someone wants to live in the forest, what can anyone else do? You are taking DNA of tribals and then comparing dalits which makes no sense.

Until now I thought you are struggling to understand the genetics based theories but now I can see that you are clearly being dishonest.

Dalit DNA has been extensively studied and found to be very close to original hunter-gatherers of South Asia compared to DNA of mid and upper castes. This genetic difference is completely in tune with their social status assigned by upper castes.

This is the first time I am seeing this theory of Dalits being products of Muslim men and Hindu women. It may look like a good Chanakya approach to the problems faced by upper castes: on one hand upper caste can finally justify historically oppressing Dalits, and otoh potential converts to Muslim are dissuaded from conversion.

But your problem is you are up against Science. Once their was linguistic evidence, followed by archeological evidence and now in recent times there is overwhelming genetic evidence about Aryan invasion/migration and caste based genetic divide, and everything is coming out in the open.

Indian public is dumb, but still it is only a matter of time before people learn the truth and come to terms with it.

 

[Drizzt]

Glad to hear. I am currently working on a project that utilizes cutting-edge AI to generate photorealistic faces from Gandharan sculptures. Stay tuned.


View attachment 742238

This AI isn't magic man, all it does is make a composite of the images you give it initially. I assume you are doing something similar to this https://www.historynet.com/roman-emperors.htm

Gandarans were Greco-Bactrians, so try using Kalash, pure Pashtun and central asian faces to get the correct representation. The sculpture and generated image don't look similar, its the nose, curve of eyebrows, shape of eyes, forehead, shape of ear, eyes color should be lighter. The generated face doesn't have that Greek mixed with central asia look.

Kingdom of Ghandara [Gandhara] was established in eastern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. It lasted until the 11th Century under the rulership of various Buddhist Kings. In Gandhara region at Swat and Kabul there are some monasteries in stone
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/history-gandhara.htm

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Until now I thought you are struggling to understand the genetics based theories but now I can see that you are clearly being dishonest.

Dalit DNA has been extensively studied and found to be very close to original hunter-gatherers of South Asia compared to DNA of mid and upper castes. This genetic difference is completely in tune with their social status assigned by upper castes.

This is the first time I am seeing this theory of Dalits being products of Muslim men and Hindu women. It may look like a good Chanakya approach to the problems faced by upper castes: on one hand upper caste can finally justify historically oppressing Dalits, and otoh potential converts to Muslim are dissuaded from conversion.

But your problem is you are up against Science. Once their was linguistic evidence, followed by archeological evidence and now in recent times there is overwhelming genetic evidence about Aryan invasion/migration and caste based genetic divide, and everything is coming out in the open.

Indian public is dumb, but still it is only a matter of time before people learn the truth and come to terms with it.

What science are you talking about? You are comparing genes of tribals and calling them dalits. Look at the DNA of dalits across India by excluding tribals and then it will be obvious that there is no difference. Tribals di have difference in DNA due to semi isolation but that is not relevant to anything. You are simply being dishonest and telling nonsense

 

[Maira La]

What science are you talking about? You are comparing genes of tribals and calling them dalits. Look at the DNA of dalits across India by excluding tribals and then it will be obvious that there is no difference. Tribals di have difference in DNA due to semi isolation but that is not relevant to anything. You are simply being dishonest and telling nonsense

You deny dalits are genetically close to tribals and hunter-gatherers? We can put an end to this argument with Science.

Let's compare three populations from TN: TN Brahmin (upper caste), Piramalai (mid/low caste) and Sakilli (Tamil Dalit, Untouchable).

Also using same populations for modelling as in post #24: Paniya (representing adivasi), Iranian Jew (representing West Asian mediated through IVC) and Belarusian (representing Indo-European).

See result below.

Notice only the Brahmins score Belarusian. Which means they have significant Indo-Aryan ancestry.

The Tamil Dalit/Untouchable (Sakilli) group scores the highest % Paniya, showing they are closest to adivasi.

It's clear the social hierarchy is reflected in their genetics.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

This AI isn't magic man

Never said it was magic.

I assume you are doing something similar to this https://www.historynet.com/roman-emperors.htm

You are correct. Except my versions have no post-processing.

Gandarans were Greco-Bactrians, so try using Kalash, pure Pashtun and central asian faces to get the correct representation.

Gandhara far predates Greco-Bactrians who were a separate people that invaded the Indus region (including Gandhara) and were eventually assimilated by the local inhabitants.

We have genetic samples of the Gandharans and as I said earlier, they fall within the Pakistani genetic cluster.

Kingdom of Ghandara [Gandhara] was established in eastern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan.

Gandhara was established in the Peshawar Valley and later came to encompass much of Northern Punjab, KPK and parts of East Afghanistan with Taxila and Peshawar as it's two main cities. Its cultural sphere encompassed the near entirety of Pakistan, East Afghanistan and South-West China. Neither the source nor the map you linked are accurate.