What's new

Indian Navy News & Discussions

You are confusing modular construction techniques with the use of modules aboard ships to allow role swapping.

Not really, since the Brave concept specifically says, that the sections will not only be constructed in a modular way, but that they are also aimed on variable roles, depending on customer demands! That's what you still deny, since you want to say that a design concept is fixed, or that only a vessel with a dock could be used for amphibious operations, which both is not the case as discussed earlier.

A dock would require an entirely new aft zone

Why?

n8zeoesy.jpg


pu5pts8v.jpg

bjmdwrod.jpg

feggisrm.jpg


1) The helicopter hangar, or landing spots are available in both cases
2) The vehicle deck is already available, or conceptualized by DCNS for the Brave as well
3) The only change needed, is the addition of the well deck with ballast tanks, like in the Mistral, so diverting the available techs and systems into the Brave aft section only (IF a customer would require it!)
 
.
Not really, since the Brave concept specifically says, that the sections will not only be constructed in a modular way, but that they are also aimed on variable roles, depending on customer demands! That's what you still deny, since you want to say that a design concept is fixed, or that only a vessel with a dock could be used for amphibious operations, which both is not the case as discussed earlier.

1) The helicopter hangar, or landing spots are available in both cases
2) The vehicle deck is already available, or conceptualized by DCNS for the Brave as well
3) The only change needed, is the addition of the well deck with ballast tanks, like in the Mistral, so diverting the available techs and systems into the Brave aft section only (IF a customer would require it!)

At no point have I said only a vessel with a dock can be used for amphibious operations. That would be silly. See LST's. I did say that a ship like the Doorman JSS is not intended for (i.e. "its purpose is not") amphibious assault. It is your claim that JSS Doorman can easily be fitted with a dock. My point remains that that is a gross underestimation of the differences between an Enforcer LPD (which is designed as such) and a purpose designed JSS that is not part of the Enforcer family of dock landing ships, which come with greater or lesser aviation capabilities.

As regards Brave, its length can be varied by insertion of an extra chunk of a hull in the middle part, which is were the fuel bunkers are in this as well as most other modern AORs. This modularity is no different than that which you see in the Sigma class ships by Damen. Further there is space in the rear for vehicle parking, or other purposes. This is essentially an reconfigurable area where mission modules can be put. Please see how that is done in modern warships e.g. Stanflex Absalon, F-125, LCS.

You point 1 is irrelevant to the discussion. You point 2 was never disputed but your point 3 is. Note that in the pic that you drew in, you completely ignored the different propulsion types of Mistral BCS (podded, electric) and Brave (traditional prop and shaft). Also ignored are the locations of stacks/exhausts, which are indicative of the location of the main engine compartments. If you stick a dock in the rear section of Brave, where exactly do its 2 engine rooms go? Note that the compartments housing the marine diesels in Cantabria AOR run up to waterline level.
Further, as you can see, the main vehicle deck in Mistral BPC runs about halfway that ship (not just the stern section), in order to accommodate a ramp from the main vehicle deck down to the loading area one deck lower, forward of the well deck, whose floor yet another deck lower. This you've not taken into account for your Brave drawing: how would vehicles move from the vehicle deck to the craft in the dock? And if the dock is there merely to transport landing craft, how will vehicles be loaded onto them? From the ramp in the hull side shown on some of the concept pics? And if that is unfeasible, what good is having a transport dock?
Also, do you think lowering the stern would be safe on this type of ship, considering e.g. the midship fuel bunkerage? As the Cantabria cross section shows, such bunkers run almost up to the main deck, which is a rather different situation than that inside the Mistral BPC, whose 'ballast et reservoirs' pretty much do not reach higher than waterline level. You are suggesting 0 impact on stability, which I find unlikely. Plus, do you really want to risk your resupply ship, on which your taskforce depends, doing that close to hostile shore?

I would like to see a direct source quote supporting the claim "the Brave concept specifically says, that the sections will not only be constructed in a modular way, but that they are also aimed on variable roles, depending on customer demands"

1001682f.jpg


mistral-02i.jpg

Mistral - Nouveaux Transports de Chalands de Débarquement (NTCD) - Pictures

detailbpc.jpg


mistral-line3.gif


Mistral.jpg


Similar for Spanish Navantia BPE, illustrating engine room location
IZAR_LHD_4.jpg


Libye-Les-helicopteres-francais-envoyes-au-combat_article_landscape_pm_v8.jpg

transfert-de-l-etat-major-de-la-tf-473-du-bpc-mistral-au-bpc-tonnerre-1.jpg


Bright_Archer_LPD01.jpg


SHIP_LPD_Rotterdam_and_LCVP_lg.jpg
 
Last edited:
.
DCNS presents new-generation support vessels
2010/12/15
Speaking to international experts gathered in London on 9 and 10 December for the Afloat Support and Naval Logistics conference*, DCNS gave a presentation on its new-generation BRAVE (Bâtiment RAVitailleur d’Escadre) underway replenishment tanker and support vessel under development for both the French Navy and international customers. By increasing export sales, the Group hopes to increase revenues by 50 to 100% over the next ten years.

The BRAVE support vessel is the latest addition to DCNS’s product portfolio. The concept was unveiled at the Euronaval 2010 show in Paris in late October, where it attracted considerable attention, presumably for the simple reason that underway replenishment is the key to naval logistic support.

The multi-purpose BRAVE concept covers caters for missions currently performed by up to three types of French Navy ships. These include the underway replenishment of dry goods, munitions and fuels along with at-sea maintenance and repairs. According to DCNS studies, four BRAVE vessels would enable the French Navy to reduce its support fleet and crews by 50% while increasing total payload by 30% and cutting operating costs.

The BRAVE concept has been designed from the outset with international customers in mind. The basic design can be adapted to yield versions with a length overall ranging from 165 to 195 metres. Shipboard volumes and areas can also be readily tailored to increase tank capacities or accommodate a naval force command team, troops and equipment or additional hospital beds for humanitarian missions.

All navies need to get heavier payloads to distant locations more quickly while reducing the risks associated with underway replenishment. This is precisely the reason the BRAVE design features two mixed rigs, each designed to handle both fuels and dry cargo.

In recent decades, DCNS has designed and built a dozen support vessels for the French Navy as well as the Navy of the Argentine Republic, the Royal Australian Navy and the Royal Saudi Naval Forces. Most of these vessels are still in service.

* Afloat Support and Naval Logistics 2010 (www.afloatsupportconf.com/)
DCNS presents new-generation support vessels | DCNS

The BRAVE support vessel is DCNS’s response to emerging logistic support needs identified by many navies. The ship is ideal for the underway replenishment of all types of products (dry cargo, fuel & other liquids and munitions), to provide logistic support for naval forces and to store and deliver all types of payloads, including dangerous substances.
DCNS at Pacific Exhibition, Australia | DCNS
and
DCNS at IMDS Exhibition, Saint Petersbourg, Russia 3 July – 7 July 2013 / Hall 7 | DCNS
as well as
DCNS to showcase wide range expertise at Defexpo India 2014 | DCNS

The BRAVE is a supply ship capable of replenishment and support for all types of ships and submarines.
Brave® | DCNS
 
Last edited:
.
From Press Kit DCNS 2012 (page 24)
Press Kit DCNS 2012

Brave, a versatile replenishment and support vessel

A versatile support vessel for coalition missions

The BRAVE support vessel is DCNS’s response to emerging logistic support needs identified by many navies. The design concept divides the ship into three zones:
• forward zone for platform management, living space and passenger accommodation
• midships zone for fuel tanks and replenishment rigs
• aft zone with storage space for dry cargo and munitions as well as workshops and, depending on the customer’s requirements, a vehicle storage area.

BRAVE support vessels are ideal for the underway replenishment of all types of products (dry cargo, fuel & other liquids and munitions), to provide logistic support for naval forces and to store and deliver all types of payloads, including dangerous substances.

The BRAVE design complies with the latest standards and regulations applicable to tankers, most importantly MARPOL. The fuel tank zone is of a double-hull design.

The deck architecture is optimised to facilitate cargo handling during both loading and underway replenishment (UNREP) whether via the rigs when connected to a receiving ship (CONREP) or using helicopters (VERTREP). To ensure that the basic design can be readily tailored to a range of payload and replenishment needs, the midship zone can be ‘jumboised’ by adding one or two hull sections. The aft zone can also accommodate various additional and optional modules (hospital extensions, shelters, etc.) for specific missions.

Many navies seek the capability to transfer bigger payloads more quickly. BRAVE ships can be equipped with one or two rigs, each handling both fuel and dry cargo. A BRAVE vessel with two rigs and two helicopter spots can thus transfer four dry cargo loads at a time.

Technical data
Length overall: 180 - 195 m
Beam: 28 m
Displacement (approx.): 30,000 t
Payload (liquids): up to 16,000 m3
Propulsion: various options
Speed: 20 knots
Accommodation: > 200
Flight deck: 2 spots, 1 for a heavy-lift helo
Hangar: 2 bays, each for a 10-t class helo
 
. . .
Wish him a speedy recovery. Sounds like a good guy!
How? Under HIS command (Western) the series of accidents happened, he refused to resign and take the blame meaning his boss (Adm Joshi) showed him what honour was.
 
.
How? Under HIS command (Western) the series of accidents happened, he refused to resign and take the blame meaning his boss (Adm Joshi) showed him what honour was.
Well you know better, still wish him a speedy recovery!
 
. . . . .
I think in our missile arsenal we lack anti ship missiles like harpoon,exocet.
all of our subs,medium helos,medium ships, fighters (LCAs and Jaguars can carry two of those). why aren't we going for this ?

thoughts @Omega007 @Dillinger @sancho
 
.
I think in our missile arsenal we lack anti ship missiles like harpoon,exocet.
all of our subs,medium helos,medium ships, fighters (LCAs and Jaguars can carry two of those). why aren't we going for this ?

thoughts @Omega007 @Dillinger @sancho

We already been using Mach .8 Kh 35 Uran (aka SS-N-25 Switchblade) anti-ship missiles for a long time now.
And Harpoon block 2 missiles have been bought by Indian Navy for its P 8I Poseidons and Jaguar IM maritime strike aircrafts.
 
.
I think in our missile arsenal we lack anti ship missiles like harpoon,exocet.
all of our subs,medium helos,medium ships, fighters (LCAs and Jaguars can carry two of those). why aren't we going for this ?

thoughts @Omega007 @Dillinger @sancho

What are trying to say? You sound awfully confused.
The IN already has AShMs and has them for a long time, esp if you mean ship-launched versions.

Air-launched versions have been around too, for just a little bit less longer. The SHARs carry them as do the Seaking Helos. As well as the Il-38s and the Tu-142s which can launch them. Just as the MiG-29Ks and KUBs can.

Submarine launched AShM capability was added to the Kilos during the upgrade refits. So what do you have in mind?

If your post was regarding Harpoons and Exocets specifically, then the the Harpoons are already on the P-8Is and retrofitted to the Jaguars. The Exocets will certainly equip the Scorpenes and there is a move to put them on the Type-209s. But remember that the Brahmos and Kh-35 Urans are more capable AShMs.
 
.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom