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Indian Navy Chief over Gwadar

Your opinion about Indian Navy cannot be backed by any facts

By whom you or me?

and i can give you facts for your naval strenght but i shall not on this thread.

Since you don't have anything to contribute about Indian Naval Stenght.

Consider your naval strenght at the moment and not in future please.

In future it will get transformed into a Blue Water Navy.


Indian Navy only has few modified Kilo's at the moment since not all have been modified yet.

I think you don't know anything about extensive refit about Indian Subs in Russia


Support vessels and other Frigates are comparable with type 21 Pakistan has.

This is the wording from Wikipedia about

The Type 21 frigate or Amazon class frigate was a Royal Navy general-purpose escort designed in the late 1960s, built in the 1970s and that served throughout the 1980s into the 1990s

Kindly get aware by yourself regarding the Type 21 and then talk about compare it to Indian Navy Vessels which are already fitted Brahmos and Klub cruise missiles.

ASW capabilities of both nation are on par.

I think you don't know anything about Navy.

At this moment Indian Navy is not a blue water navy by any means.

Still you are giving privliage to Indian Navy of Blue Water Navy.


Give facts if you think otherwise

Otherwise then How does your ignorance about Navies will get corrected.
 
This is the wording from Wikipedia about

The Type 21 frigate or Amazon class frigate was a Royal Navy general-purpose escort designed in the late 1960s, built in the 1970s and that served throughout the 1980s into the 1990s
Kindly get aware by yourself regarding the Type 21 and then talk about compare it to Indian Navy Vessels which are already fitted Brahmos and Klub cruise missiles.



Wikipedia :lol:

sorry dear those who believe in authentic stuff do not trust Wiki
 
Wikipedia :lol:

sorry dear those who believe in authentic stuff do not trust Wiki

The least that can be done is check the sources on Wiki. Just saying wiki is not reliable does not mean its not. Check the sources and then comment.
 
p2bp,

I am not aware why you want to be spoonfed. That is what I gather from your "give me facts" refrain.

It would only mean a bit of googling. I am sure you know how to use the internet.

Notwithstanding, here is a dated article from a non Indian source that is otherwise well respected for defence news.

Indian Navy

The Indian Navy (IN), the world’s fifth largest navy, is a well-balanced three-dimensional force consisting of sophisticated missile-capable warships, aircraft carriers, minesweepers, advanced submarines and the latest aircraft in its inventory. Many of the warships are of indigenous design and have been constructed in Indian shipyards. These ships compare well with the ships of similar capability constructed by advanced countries. The Naval forces are maintained and supported by modern dockyard facilities encompassing state-of-the-art technology. At present the Navy has two major Naval bases at Mumbai and Visakhapatnam.

The navy is relatively well-armed among Indian Ocean navies, operating one aircraft carrier, over 40 surface combatants, and over a dozen submarines. The fleet is aging, and replacement of ships and aircraft has not been adequately funded. India's coast guard is small and is organized along the lines of the U.S. Coast Guard. With India's long coastline and extensive Exclusive Economic Zone, the navy and coast guard work hard to patrol the waters dictated by India's economic and strategic interests.

The Navy consists of ships such as aircraft carrier, cruisers, destroyers, frigates, mine-sweepers, survey ships, store carriers, tankers, submarines etc., and shore establishments, such as training institutions, dockyard, storage deposits and other miscellaneous, technical and administrative establishments. It also has a separate Aviation Wing consisting of Naval Air Stations and a Fleet Requirement Unit. The training establishments cater for the training of new entry Sailors, apprentices and boys as well as for specialised training of officers and men in mechanical and electrical engineering, gunnery, communication, navigation, anti-submarine and naval aviation etc,. There are also schools for training in seamanship, physical culture, supply and secretariat duties, etc.

India entered the 21st Century with a small but formidable regional naval posture. Long considered a "blue water" navy, the Indian Navy faces major challenges as many of its major vessels near the end of their service lives. Indigenous shipbuilding efforts are struggling to achieve acceptable levels of productivity and efficiency.

A “banner year” for bilateral training exercises, 2003 will likely be a model for future exercise planning. As a U.S. partner in the war on terrorism, the IN did little this year other than bilateral training exercises to bolster anti–terrorism efforts.

After several years of meticulous preparation, by 2003 the outlines of a new operational philosophy of the Indian Navy were becoming increasingly perceptible. This is an operational philosophy whose contours are well suited to the current perception of the Indian Navy - that of a competent, confident, operationally viable and regionally visible maritime power. Ships of the Indian Navy are not merely visible in the Indian Ocean Region and its environs - but also further afield.

In keeping with the 2003 naval slogan, the Indian Navy is indeed "Tacking to the Blue Waters". "Tacking" is a sailing term, indicating a change of direction of a sailing vessel. "Blue Waters" is a common maritime term implying deep seas, far away from one's own shores.

In keeping with this change in thrust and direction, Indian Naval ships are demonstrating the Navy's emergence as a regionally viable stabilising force. For Instance, in April of this year, the active assistance of the Indian Navy was requested by the Republic of Mauritius - 2,500 nautical miles away - to tow their Coast Guard Vessel Vigilante to Mumbai for repairs at the Naval Dockyard. This arduous and professionally challenging task was flawlessly executed by INS Gaj. In recognition of the demonstrated capability of the Indian Navy, the Government of Mauritius additionally requested surveillance of its Exclusive Economic Zone. First, INS Sharda, and now, INS Suvarna, maintained presence in the area, sharing with them information of importance.

Similarly, in June 2003, INS Ranjit and INS Suvarna executed a month-long deployment in and off Maputo, the capital of Mozambique - over 3,500 nautical miles away from India. This was at the specific request of the Government of Mozambique to provide security and training assistance.

Closer home, responding to a call, by the Government of Sri Lanka in mid-May 2003 for Indian assistances in providing succour to the flood-stricken southern and central districts of the country, the swiftness and comprehensiveness of the response by INS Sharda were instrumental in showing that a friend in need is a friend indeed.

Indian Naval ships were visible in or headed for the eastern choke points of the Indian Ocean, building professional partnerships with other navies of South East Asia, IN ships Rajput and Rana renewed contacts with old friends in Singapore, as well INS Mumbai with the Indonesian Navy.

Farther out still, the three masted sail training barque INS Tarangini proudly bore the Indian flag as far away as Canada and the US, carrying through the Great Lakes India's desire and, ability to build bridges of friendship across the seas. After taking part in tall ship races, she will transit the Panama Canal, cross the Pacific and return home.

For the Indian Navy, "Bridges of Friendship Across the Seas" had a particular relevance, for it knows that it is the sea itself that is the bridge - and the Indian Navy is determined to travel upon this bridge, reaching across to its maritime neighbours intimately connected by the sea, no matter where in the world they are.

Following the 28 December 2004 tsunami, rescue and relief operations under taken by Andaman and Nicobar Command included intensive search and rescue for survivers by Marine Commandos of Indian Navy at Indira Point light house and adjoining areas. Indian Naval Ships Brahmaputra with its two chetak helicopters, Sandhayak with one chetak helicopter, Darshak with one chetak helicopter, Jyoti, Trinket, Sharabh and LCU- 38 operated off Great Nicobar Island and Nancowry group of islands. INS Rajput with chetak helicopter on board operated off Car Nicobar whereas Indian Naval Ships Magar, Kumbhir, LCU- 35 and LCU- 36 were deployed off Hut Bay. Helicopters on board INS Brahmaputra carried out aerial recce of Pilomilo, Pilobabi, Pilokunji and Kyang Island along with tribal captain.
Indian Maritime Doctrine

To assist and influence the nation’s thinking, in June 2004 the Navy issued its “Indian Maritime Doctrine” and made it available to the public. It is a glossy booklet of 135 pages as a book of reference, and it includes all the attributes that a doctrine should, to provide for common language and to appreciate the many roles that a responsible Navy should be prepared for, in peace and war. The Chief of Naval Staff in the foreword has stated, “If we are to fulfill our maritime destiny, all of us – the Government, the armed forces, the civil services, the media and the public - must have a maritime vision and a thorough understanding of the maritime concepts outlined in this doctrine”.

The Indian Navy enters the new millennium as a professional focussed and committed force, deeply conscious of its roles and responsibilities. In times of peace and tension, the Indian Navy is a powerful instrument of the nation's foreign policy, while in times of conflict, it is the foremost expression of the nation's maritime power.

In an increasingly complex world, the missions of the Navy are correspondingly more diverse and complex than ever before. This complexity is global as well as regional, and is unlikely to diminish in the 2lst century. It is, as a consequence, essential for the Indian Navy to establish a recognizable set of navigational aids that will guide and chart its development and its conduct through the turbulent waters that lie ahead. At the most fundamental level, these navigational marks, as also the discernible dangers, are charted through the issue of backbone publications, the foremost of which is a clearly articulated doctrine.

The 'Indian Maritime Doctrine' is an unclassified document and will become available to every officer, civil servant, politician, analyst and professional concerned with the maritime affairs of our country. The purpose of a maritime doctrine is to provide the country with a common language and a uniform understanding of maritime concepts. It would provide a common reference point, language, and purpose, uniting the actions of many diverse elements into a team effort. It is intended to evoke the same degree of comprehension in the mind of every person who reads it, irrespective of his profession, experience or association with the sea.

The maritime domain is changing rapidly. India appreciates these changes and shapes strategies and policies to further national interests. India is a maritime nation and we have a bright maritime future, if only we can use the seas to advantage. If India is to fulfill a maritime destiny, the government, the armed forces, the civil services, the media and the public must have a maritime vision and a thorough understanding of the maritime concepts outlined in this doctrine.

The 'Indian Maritime Doctrine' is conceptual in nature and should not be construed as a policy statement. The Indian Navy rocognizes that while any formalized maritime doctrine is authoritative, its application should be embarked upon judiciously and astutely. There should be room for flexibility and innovativeness for responding to political changes, operational scenarios and technical opportunities. Otherwise, maritime doctrine runs the risk of evolving into a rigid dogma that straitjackets the strategic thought and tactical planning that is meant to flow out of it.

Maritime doctrine may be considered as having the following three constituent parts: the enduring tenets of the nature of war; the dynamic application of these tenets to meet today's circumstances and a predictive element designed to prepare us for tomorrow. When taken in totality, these three constituent parts define the scope of maritime doctrine, making it a dynamic combination of history, tradition and experience, born out of an understanding of maritime power and an intimate comprehension of the nature of war in general and maritime warfare in particular.

The 'Indian Maritime Doctrine' has been circulated to senior members of the government, bureaucracy and the armed forces, and has been widely welcomed as an important keystone document for the Indian Navy that was long overdue.
India - Navy
 
We cannot blame IN cheif for telling blunt truth!
Irespective of all Indian concerns and interests, Balauchistan's geography attracts global interets.
Russia invaded Afghanistan for the sole purpose to have access to the Arabian sea.
China invested in Gawadar to ensure an alternate conection to the gulf (right way).
In case of Iran US conflict it can be a deciding factor.

Not to mention newly discovered minerals of Balauchistan it self.
 
Russian overhaul of Indian Navy submarine delayed

St Petersburg (Russia), Jan 16 : The delivery of an Indian Navy diesel submarine, which recently underwent a two-year refit at a Russian Barents Sea shipyard, will be delayed by at least six months, a shipyard spokesman said Wednesday.


The Indian Navy refused last week to take delivery of the Sindhuvijay, a Project 877 EKM diesel submarine, whose overhaul began at the Zvyozdochka shipyard in Severodvinsk in late 2005, saying its Club-S cruise missile system had not met specifications.

"The submarine has passed all its sea trials and was ready in November 2007, but the delivery had to be delayed due to problems with the Club-S system," a Zvyozdochka spokesman said.

The Indian Navy claimed that cruise missiles failed to find their targets in six consecutive test firings in September-November last year.

The Zvyozdochka official said the submarine would remain at the shipyard awaiting further missile tests at a White Sea testing site in July-August.

The much-touted Club-S submarine cruise missile family includes the 3M-54E1 anti-ship missile and the 3M-14E land-attack versions, with a flight range of 275 km. The high-precision missile can be launched from standard torpedo tubes from a depth of 35 to 40 meters (130 feet).

In a contract signed in 2001, India had sent 10 Kilo-class submarines to Russia for refitting to make them capable of firing the Club-class cruise missiles.

The Sindhuvijay is the fourth Indian Navy submarine that has been overhauled at the Zvezdochka shipyard.

Russia earlier announced a delay in the overhaul of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, sold to India under a 2004 contract, citing time and cost overruns.

The delivery of the carrier has been pushed back to 2012-13, according to some sources, while Russia asked for an additional $1.2 billion for the warship, which was originally sold for $1.5 billion.

--- IANS

Link:
Russian overhaul of Indian Navy submarine delayed @ NewKerala.Com News Channel

SO INDIA HAS THREE KILO CLASS SUBS WITH KLUB CRUISE MISSILE! AT THE MOMENT!

STAY IN PRESENT CAPABILITIES OF IN PLEASE ... SALIM!


Now Indian Navy Sub fleet consists of 10 kilo Class subs and 4 HDW U-209s and 2 FOXTROT class , with a total strength of 16 Submarines. Most of which are of 70s and 80s. Only three subs of Kilo class can fire Anti Ship Klub cruise missiles at this time.

This gives your strenght in subs. More is coming!
 
P2bP,

I am sure there would be even greater distressing news of the IN, but then it does very little to the strategic equation!
 
P2bP,

I am sure there would be even greater distressing news of the IN, but then it does very little to the strategic equation!

Salim,

I never compared IN with PN. Check my post.
I mentioned that at Present IN is in no Shape to be a Blue water Navy and to roam around undeterred in Arabian Sea.
 
What short sighted reply Bushroda all in all you had picked up this lame point who cares for CBM ? do You see only this point dont see India needs energy?

Please comprehend carefully.. it is the author who is harping on the CBMs. Check the link you provided me. The very first sentence speaks as

"The Iran-Pakistan-India (IPI) pipeline has been called the ‘peace pipeline’ and ‘mother of all confidence-building Measures’ between India and Pakistan."

Put aside CBM point as India is not in love with Pakistan that she will do so.
Its obviouse this gasline is also the need of India thats why India was in.

Correction, India needs a secure energy route & not a pipeline that passes through minefield. The current situation isn't very favorable for India to go through with the gas pipeline when the source(Iran) & transit host (Pakistan) are both in the red & amongst whole world of uncertainties. Do you know that India signed the gas deal with Iran for over $50 billion? They ofcourse wouldn't want that money to go down the drain.

:) If that is so why Doesn not India come clear and announce officially tht She is out of the project?
Instead there are statements now and then comming from India that India is very much committed to come along with the project.
Just today there is official statement from Indian side that they want to join the project in the wake of signing of IP gasline by Pakistan and Iran in next few days.

Now why you think India is at the same time deseperate to join too ? beacuse she needs it.

Business deals do not run on uncertainties. Just take a look at stock market. Karachi stock market slid by over 10% after BB was shot.. why? Because the investors do not wish to take risk. One only goes through a multi billion dollar deal when the situation is favourable otherwise, they wait & watch. Why do you wish India to come out clear on this? They are doing the same. Observing the situation from the fence. Official statements from Indian side are diplomatic way of saying "We are willing (..but we would wait & observe for a while)".

Now you come to the point dear i had cleared it in the past too.

The Terrorism in Balochistan is carried out by terrorist BLA with backing of India and funding from India.

1. Once IPI runs through Balochistan into India it will also become a matter of Indian intrest and India will have stalk in the pipeline.

Hence
A. India will not be in a position to afford funding BLA for blowing IPI gasline as it would be tantamount to halting the gas supply to India and that india can not afford.
B. It will definatly forces BLA not to carry out sabotage by blowing pipeline which means peace in Balochistan. Which India can also not tolerate.

So simple

India either has to opt for the project running towrds India from Balochistan, and halting its support to BLA or it has to opt for continuing its support to Terrorist BLA and get out of the project.

Yawn!!!!!!!

Speculations, speculations & mere speculations.....

Just the other day on some other thread, there was this guy who was busy floating stories of how Al-Qaeda was an Indian outfit & how the suicide bombing in Pakistan is being carried out by Indian outfit RAW through Al-Qaeda. Imagination doesn't need wings afterall.. Wild thoughts fly on their own.

Even for once if I have to take your words & accept that BLA terrorists are operating on behest of India.. Now, what guarantee does it hold that those BLA terrorists wouldn't sellout to some other party willing to sabotage the pipeline, once India abondons them? America doesn't want the pipeline to go through & they have a lot more resources to fund BLA to carryout attacks on pipeline. Pak government cannot protect each & every inch of pipeline & the gaps would be big enough for anybody to exploit.

So Lady instead of indulging into wild, fanciful & imaginative theories.. concentrate on current ground realities. And they are

1) There would be hardly anyone willing to cover the insurance cost of the project.

2) Future of the deal is uncertain as long as there in uncertainty prevelent in Iran & Pakistan.

If these two factors can be accounted for then I don't see why India wouldn't be willing to participate.
 
Hi guys.... hotel internet very expensive


Just wanted to put something.

I got carried away the other time under irritation, priotism & I was also in a hurry.

Gwadar has 2 objectives:

1. Economic
2. Military

Leaving economic aside the military objectives are:

a. Strategic Deapth in the sea - this is not a strike capability as there is no naval base at Gwadar. The naval base is in Pasni.

b. Deterrent value - as to give India or any other state an Idea that attack on Gwadar will have negative implications on the attacking state as well.


The concept of deterrence means "REACTION" not "Action" which means that Pakistan has no intention of blocking the Indian trade in Hormoz, but an attack on Gwadar will result in unacceptable damage on the aggressor. This will happen automatically as trade & economic activities come to hault in the war torn areas. Which means trade from Hormoz will stop every where else in the world. Such a result would be unacceptable to major power states which will of course only have to pressurize the aggressor state to move away (as Pakistan is already in its waters).

The only major problem for India from Gwadar would be when China percieves India as a threat to its trade & interests in the Arabian sea & PLAAN starts to escort its ships. The movement from South China Sea to Chittagong & to Gwadar can virtually block Indian ocean.

But since the port has "deterrent value" it means conflict near by is in favor of no country, in the region especially. This will of course include Pakistan. Since -ve effects apply to Pakistan as well & it is following deterrent strategy it will not take any Action but would wait to make a Reaction (as stated above) & naval reaction will come from Karachi & Pasni not the Gwadar it self. I would also not underestimate the Pakistani forces working for UAE. In case of conflict they would have utter lack of concern about the ownership of the equipment they are using. Plus the UAE, KSA & Turkey also end up lending their weapons to Pakistan during the war. But that is another issue.


The Economic importance of Gwadar can be viewd as Pakistan V/S Iran, where Pakistan enjoys better relations in the region than Iran. The West, Central Asia & the Middle Eastern states have huge resentments against Iran which means they would be having minimum trade relations on the basis of port usage with Iran. Hormoz is also enclosed gulf where many western ships find it difficult to maneouver & avoide Iran (few weeks back American ships failed to avoid Iran & were harrassed by Iranian coast guards). Since Gwadar is at open sea it provides the stated regions better access.

The Central Asia oil & gas pipeline is an issue since it would have to pass through Afghanistan (not necessarily but it is the most economical & feasible rout). However other trade is being diverted to ancient silk rout (between Pakistan, china & Central Asia). The rout has now been connected with Gwadar highway going north. Similar rout has been provided to Karachi.

The oil & gas supply from Qatar & Oman & even UAE & Bahrain is on the board - this has been brought up by these states themselves, not by Pakistan.



I do not see any naval conflict in Arabian sea due to Pakistan's deterrent value but I would also like to ask my Indian friends not to underestimate PN either, not now not ever. You cannot expect to come & attack & in reaction recieve no highly damaging resistance. PN has advantage of being closer to its home & air force nearer in the Arabian sea. Plus do not have utter lack of concern for International Law, when it comes to play it gives heavy blows & than starts face saving. & finally there is no use of technology without strategy (read Clausewitz's ON WAR, & if you haven't & don't want to than dont discuss war & strategy ... no matter which country you belong to). Vietnamese defeated Americans & Afghans defeated to Soviet with very limited & little technology, on their behalf it was the strategy & tactics.

Now my latop battery is running out & I have to go get something to eat from the dinning hall before the close the darn thing until dinner.
 
Salim,

I never compared IN with PN. Check my post.
let us just see your post.
Indian Navy only has few modified Kilo's at the moment since not all have been modified yet. Support vessels and other Frigates are comparable with type 21 Pakistan has. ASW capabilities of both nation are on par.

If the above statements are not comparisions, then bush is the most clever person on the face of earth.
 
IN lacks the capabilities of a Blue water Navy by Far.

Just check what others are telling, NO ONE said IN IS a blue water navy.

Do you want to know what is the strongest navy in arabian ocean? USN and the strongest base is Dieo garcia. not IN or any other navy and that is by far far.

So what jack sh*t are you talking about?
 
IN is a true blue water Navy, But we are limited in Amphibous deployments. USN is a different League all together. Heck you can combine Russia, Britain and France, and Yet USN would win. They are that powerful.

No, not right now, forget about USN for a moment, can it do offensive missions or defend indian interests, say in south america, except for friendlies, it is not in a position to do so.

It has good capacity from malacca straits to the south africa, but beyond that, it does not cut the ice, we have a single ageing AC, which will not be able to handle if it has to go in an offensive mission with utmost priority that far, let us accept what we are- but no hype or anything about it.

We do not have that level of logistical capability. and note that amphibious capability is a VERY important part of being a blue water navy, we have just got trenton. We should be able to learn the tactics on it in 2-4 years time and then it will be our time to start building the amphibious ships, along with ACs we will have at that time. Expect the IN to be a low to decent blue water navy in about 10 years, anyday before that - we are and will be only "converting to(similar to our developing country tag from the past 50 years)" blue water navy.
 
let us just see your post.


If the above statements are not comparisions, then bush is the most clever person on the face of earth.

ASW capabilities are on Par!

Quote some valid reference if otherwise.

If you want to do IN vs PN then, start!

We know what IN capabilities are AT PRESENT!
 

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