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Indian Navy Chief over Gwadar

The Sunnis of Afghanistan are the serfs and not warlords? I am not aware that the Tajiks and Uzbeks are in overwhelming of warlords of Afghanistan.

There's Tajik warlords, Uzbek warlords, and Pashtun warloads. Most of the Tajik warlords are in government (and Uzbek), while most of the Pashtun warlords/leaders/elders are not.

Do you have any statistics to indicate the ethnic composition of the Afghan army or is it mere gut feeling and the rumour grapevine. Though, I believe rumours are sometime right!!

Just common sense. Where does Dostum's army come from? From his own tribe (Uzbeki). The warlords, usually have their armies made from their own people. Most of the Afghan government is Tajik/Uzbek, so most of the army is Tajik/Uzbek.

It is PC that is always bandied in a difficult situation that there is no Sunni Shia divide.

It is quite strong, even during peaceable times. Just see when Moharrum comes and how the police has to gear up in all Islamic and non Islamic countries.

I have personally been in such a firefight in Lucknow, without even knowing what's up!

Perhaps in India, not in Pakistan though. There really isn't a Sunni-Shia divide that I have seen at all, except in brainwashed media sheep. Shias and Sunnis have lived with each other for centuries without any problem, I don't see why there's going to be one now.
 
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There's Tajik warlords, Uzbek warlords, and Pashtun warloads. Most of the Tajik warlords are in government (and Uzbek), while most of the Pashtun warlords/leaders/elders are not.

Good to know that the Pashtuns are a peaceful lot and others are the cause of all the problems.

Do check the Afghanistan map and check the areas controlled by various ethnic groups.



Just common sense. Where does Dostum's army come from? From his own tribe (Uzbeki). The warlords, usually have their armies made from their own people. Most of the Afghan government is Tajik/Uzbek, so most of the army is Tajik/Uzbek.


Too much of common sense somehow does not appeal if the reality defies the common sense.


Perhaps in India, not in Pakistan though. There really isn't a Sunni-Shia divide that I have seen at all, except in brainwashed media sheep. Shias and Sunnis have lived with each other for centuries without any problem, I don't see why there's going to be one now
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Please, I am tired of seeing ostriches!
 
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Good to know that the Pashtuns are a peaceful lot and others are the cause of all the problems.

The usual obfuscation as I don't think i ever mentioned who was peaceful or not in Afghanistan. It is a fact that the Tajiks and Uzbeks occupy the majority of government positions, threfore the government troops will be of the same ethnicity. Afghanis will generally be loyal to a tribe, not to other tribes, though there can be some hired hands, but these will never stay in the Afghani army.

Do check the Afghanistan map and check the areas controlled by various ethnic groups.

The South and East, much of the centre is Pashtun, the North, Uzbek and Tajik and so on. So what?

Too much of common sense somehow does not appeal if the reality defies the common sense.

Please, I am tired of seeing ostriches!

A lot of wind.
 
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RR,

Regarding "common interests", even the Mujahideen were not averse to using the "great Satan" to further their cause, and I wonder whether such pragmatism has seeped into the Taliban psyche, or perhaps was always present, but ignored due to the focus on their puritanical version of Islam.

Well, the Taliban are the Mujahideen, so that has always been their psyche. I have read some nonsense on the internet (wiki precisely) that the Mujahideen were NA, which is just big lies to paint them in a good light and to give the impression the West had never sided with the Talibanis. Mullah Omar, all these shady characters in the Taliban, Hekmatyar etc, were all Mujahideen fighters. Ahmed Shah Massood, the Tajik championed as THE mujahideen was just a traitor who let the Soviets in through the Salang and Panjsher Valleys to resupply the Soviet troops massacring the Pashtuns in the East. Soviet Generals have since admitted that Masood and the Red Army used to fake encounters to give the impression he was a Mujahideen, but really was working for the Soviets.

As for the quote, if the US told the Taliban tomorrow, we want to support you in power, and not the NA, they'd probably side with the US.
 
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Look! its common sense that when two people have some sort of differences, the third will always take advantage of it, the same way it was done in iraq, dividing the shia and sunni, targeting each others places and creating a conflict between the two. Anyhow in pakistan, there isnt much divide in both the groups however the fact is there that there are some radicals in both the groups that do all sort of terrorist activities and then there are some (foreign elements) who sure likes to take an advantage over the situation protaying as a conflict between the two groups. As for the protection, yes indeed they are heavily protected specially in Muharam but not because of some sort of religious biased between the two communites but because of the terrorism that is likely to target the key places not only for shias but also for sunnies.

You must see the genesis of the issue.

It was stated that the West is responsible for the Shia Sunni divide.

The point I am making the West or the US is NOT responsible for the Islamic divide. It is a historical divide that the Moslems themselves did for temporal reasons and for supremacy over all Islam. Since it did not work out, Islam split. So, where is the West or the US involved.

Even before this catch all word "terrorism", the were always problems over the Shia Sunni divide, more so during Moharrum.

I would not quite subscribe to the view that the US or the West is exploiting the Sunni Shia divide. The battle for supremacy is so intense amongst the Moslems, that none have to do anything. It is self igniting and self sustaining. Why do I say so? Because I was surprised at the sentiments over the mere difference of the kalam.

So let us not blame the US or the West for issues that are internally self igniting and self sustaining.

It is time that this Divide is seen in the correct perspective and a homogeneous Islam is sought, though I am aware that I am no one to suggest so.
 
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Well, the Taliban are the Mujahideen, so that has always been their psyche. I have read some nonsense on the internet (wiki precisely) that the Mujahideen were NA, which is just big lies to paint them in a good light and to give the impression the West had never sided with the Talibanis. Mullah Omar, all these shady characters in the Taliban, Hekmatyar etc, were all Mujahideen fighters. Ahmed Shah Massood, the Tajik championed as THE mujahideen was just a traitor who let the Soviets in through the Salang and Panjsher Valleys to resupply the Soviet troops massacring the Pashtuns in the East. Soviet Generals have since admitted that Masood and the Red Army used to fake encounters to give the impression he was a Mujahideen, but really was working for the Soviets.

As for the quote, if the US told the Taliban tomorrow, we want to support you in power, and not the NA, they'd probably side with the US.

Treachery is a word that depends on the perceiver.

If the Taliban should switch support, then they are but only opportunists and the last one to be trusted!

It is interesting to note that Masood worked for the USSR. Any substantive proof towards this end or is it one of the axiomatic gut feelings?
 
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Treachery is a word that depends on the perceiver.

If the Taliban should switch support, then they are but only opportunists and the last one to be trusted!

It wouldn't be switching support. Their enemy would be the Northern Alliance. The US just comes and goes. It's not like Dostum who switches to the side of the Taliban if they're in power, then goes to Rabbani when the Tajiks are in power. That is opportunism. The Taliban are the weaker power not in government right now, so they're not switching their support afaics

It is interesting to note that Masood worked for the USSR. Any substantive proof towards this end or is it one of the axiomatic gut feelings?

Plenty of proof. Masood too was an opportunist or a double agent. He agreed to a ceasefire with the Soviets in 1983, but made many more deals with the Soviets.

Ex-Soviet commander unveil Masoud's secret pact

The News International, May 17, 2001
BUREAU REPORT

PESHAWAR: General Gramov, commander of ex-soviet invading army in Afghanistan, has revealed that present leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan Ahmad Shah Masoud had inked an agreement with Moscow that ensured safe passage to the former USSR troops through Salang and Panjsher valleys during the Afghan jihad.

Ahmad Shah Massoud, Qasim Fahim and other commanders of Shura-e-Nezar with Parchami (Russian puppets regime) army generals Nabi Azimi, Noor-ul-Haq Ulomi, Asif Delawar and others.
According to an Afghan journalist Sami Yusafzai, General Gramov has exposed many facts about the 10 years-long Soviet involvement and Afghan resistance movement in his took "Soviet Army in Afghanistan".

He reveals that when the first Russian troops left Hairatan on Afghan-Uzbek border for Kabul via land route in 1980, the soviets feared that the passage of the army through Salang valley and high peaks of Panjsher valley which were manned by the mujahideen of Ahmad Shah Masoud was not only difficult but also almost impossible. The army of famed Jihadi commander Ahmad Shah Masoud, Gramov said, could convert the area into graveyard for the Russian troops by only throwing rocks.

Gramov says at that critical time the then Khad chief Dr. Najibullah acted very shrewdly and contacted Ahmad Shah Masoud who demanded direct talks with the Russians. The Soviet General says they immediately met Masoud and signed an agreement with him that ensured safe passage of Russian army through the dangerous Salang and Panjsher valleys and thus onward to the southern, central and eastern Afghanistan.

General Gramov says Ahmad Shah Masoud in return continued to get Russian assistance. He says Masoud sometimes used to stage sham skirmishes with the Russian to put off chances of suspicions about his activities among other mujahideen groups. He says the Soviets feared that Masoud would use the agreement for dishonest gains but he acted on the accord and avoided creating problems for the Russian army till its withdrawal in 1998.

Gramov says differences between Ahmad Shah Masoud and Gulbuddin Hikmatyar dated back to their days at engineering faculty of Kabul University when both were members of an Islamic student organization. He says that besides being a high caliber military commander who never stayed for two days at a place, Masoud had a political mind.

The Persian-speaking Afghans, Gramov says, consider Masoud as their leader and hero. Mining and export of the precious stones at Panjsher, he says, is major source of income for Masoud. He says Masoud had especial links with France where the press has helped him earn world fame. Gramov says Masoud leads his life in accordance with Islamic principles but according to Russians' reports he used to take liquor in the company of his close friends.

Gramov further says that on the one hand Masoud had an agreement with the Russians for safe passage at Salang pass and on the other his military council Shura-i-Nazar, fought with them on many fronts in northern Afghanistan and killed many Russian troops.

General Gramov says that in case of hard times his armies could contact the mujahideen in northern Afghanistan and struck a deal on the based of some give and take. However, he says in the eastern and southern Afghanistan where the Pukhtun were in majority such incidents were rare.

Gramov says the Russian invasion of Afghanistan was a blunder that led to the disintegration of the Soviet Union.
 
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This thread is about Gwadar, lets back to the topic. Or has that discussion ceased?
 
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Do you mind? Ignore the post if you don't like it. I posted it for Salim's benefit, not yours.

I think this is not personal forum where anyone can come and post whatever they want. It is in the interest of the forum that people could stick to the original topic
 
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I think this is not personal forum where anyone can come and post whatever they want. It is in the interest of the forum that people could stick to the original topic

Well, you have already managed to digress the topic by three useless posts, which is more than an informative digression from the topic by me. You too should keep your nose out of things. It was a simple response to an ask by another member. Such digressions are useful. Yours are not. I know you're not smart enough to not respond to this post and continue the uselessness of this current debate, so I think I'll end this bit of trolling right here.
 
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Well, you have already managed to digress the topic by three useless posts,

Were they sound you digress? since they are not in a parallel to what you have anything to contribute. Whatever I had presented were not digress but effort to remove the black shadow of ignorance about India's interest in the region.


which is more than an informative digression from the topic by me.

Might be they are informative, but way away from what is mentioned according to the title of thread.

You too should keep your nose out of things.

As far as I am poking my nose which is according to the title of thread and in your case it is vice-versa.


It was a simple response to an ask by another member.

Was my one any different?

Such digressions are useful.

May be, but as far as they are corresponding to the title of the thread.


Yours are not.

Why? becuase you don't want to admit it.


I know you're not smart enough to not respond to this post

What an amazing Sixth Sense?

Before judging my Atitude, How did you manage to judge my smartness?


and continue the uselessness of this current debate,


It's upto you to decide.

so I think I'll end this bit of trolling right here.

One can expect such wise move.
 
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Thats pure Pakistani perspective devoid of any business sense. The author expects India to pour billions of dollars in a dark hole for some confidence building measures that don't last more than the rain drop bubbles.There is huge money involved from the Indian side & there is no way that government would've put such huge amount of money simply so that Pakistan can have some confidence in India.

What short sighted reply Bushroda all in all you had picked up this lame point who cares for CBM ? do You see only this point dont see India needs energy?
Put aside CBM point as India is not in love with Pakistan that she will do so.
Its obviouse this gasline is also the need of India thats why India was in.


Did he even consider for one moment what would happen to the contract if Iran happens to come under the US blade? Who in his right mind would invest under these circumstances? Next given the stress between US & Iran since 2004 which Insurance company would dare provide Insurance cover to the project?

:) If that is so why Doesn not India come clear and announce officially tht She is out of the project?
Instead there are statements now and then comming from India that India is very much committed to come along with the project.
Just today there is official statement from Indian side that they want to join the project in the wake of signing of IP gasline by Pakistan and Iran in next few days.

Now why you think India is at the same time deseperate to join too ? beacuse she needs it.

Also, for India another factor is that the pipeline would go through the insurgency affected Baluchistan province where insurgents keep blowing up gas pipeline every second day. Who would've ensured the safety of the pipeline in that province? Who would've covered the loss if the supply gets affected? Already Western oil & Gas companies have started wrapping up their operations in Baluchistan & moving to Africa what guarantee does it hold that the pipeline wouldn't be affected.

Now you come to the point dear i had cleared it in the past too.

The Terrorism in Balochistan is carried out by terrorist BLA with backing of India and funding from India.

1. Once IPI runs through Balochistan into India it will also become a matter of Indian intrest and India will have stalk in the pipeline.

Hence
A. India will not be in a position to afford funding BLA for blowing IPI gasline as it would be tantamount to halting the gas supply to India and that india can not afford.
B. It will definatly forces BLA not to carry out sabotage by blowing pipeline which means peace in Balochistan. Which India can also not tolerate.

So simple

India either has to opt for the project running towrds India from Balochistan, and halting its support to BLA or it has to opt for continuing its support to Terrorist BLA and get out of the project.
 
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Any reason to believe otherwise, or is it mere gut feeling?

Haven't seen you given any facts to back your assertions.





I am with you that India is not the master of the Seas.

However, given the strengths and the composition of the Navies, India does have a considerable edge.

In fact, I was myself astonished that the Indian Navy could achieve the attack on Karachi port in 1971. To me, it was not only the strength, but the master use of naval tactics that brought this about.




I would ask you to hone up about Navies and how they operate. Even if a nation acquire a Kitty Hawk, and is without support vessels, it is as good as a derelict for target practice.

India by the way, is buying three such subs from France and is also building its own!





Harriers are obsolete, but its value in certain combat configuration is valueless. The Harriers have one problem - the are very expensive to operate!

As far as India having money, I hope you are following the Davos Conference that is in session.

Your opinion about Indian Navy cannot be backed by any facts and i can give you facts for your naval strenght but i shall not on this thread. Consider your naval strenght at the moment and not in future please. Indian Navy only has few modified Kilo's at the moment since not all have been modified yet. Support vessels and other Frigates are comparable with type 21 Pakistan has. ASW capabilities of both nation are on par. At this moment Indian Navy is not a blue water navy by any means. Give facts if you think otherwise
 
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