Indian ‘Home-Grown’ AMCA, An Alternative To FGFA

[sancho]

There are more than 2000 F-35s are planned and you will see flying around the world like how we see now F-16s and Mig-21s in the earlier days. I'm not even calculating Chinese made 5th gen jets.

How do you gonna counter it? with only heavy FGFA? If that logic is correct, then why did we go for Rafale as we could have brought 200+ Su-30s instead.

In coming years, the AFs in the world will be filled with 5th gen jets and we need a medium size one. Let start it as for IN now. Since they need 100+ jets for replacements after 10-20years.

Sorry mate, but that's just paper logic! You look at the figures on paper and conclude things, that doesn't really make sense. Only because the US aims on 2000 x stealth fighters, it doesn't mean that India needs 1000 too, or that India can afford to operate 1000 x stealth fighters. Not even China will have that many stealth fighters in the next 2 x decades, besides that we might not see manned stealth fighters in 2 decades anymore.

And we want to Rafales, because they offer advantages and alternatives in it's performance, that additional MKIs, or Mig 35s didn't. The main advantage of a stealth fighter however is the stealth capability, no matter if it's heavy or medium class and the general performance of AMCA would be far inferior to FGFA anyway, not to mention that both will probably have the same weapon packege too, which leaves no operational benefits. Moreover, with LCAs, Rafales and MKIs remaining in service for decades, there is no role, not even a niche one left behind FGFA, that AMCA would be useful for.
With (imo) 300-400 x FGFAs, AURA UCAVs and other armed drones, next to 600 to 700 x 4.5th fighters, we will have a modern and capable air force for decades, till the replacement of the MKI might come.

 

[ptltejas]

There is simply no need for AMCA as it will not add up any new capability over FGFA.So without wasting the allready limited and over-streched human and financial resources,DRDO should concentrate on developing a turbofan powered HALE UCAV based on Rustam UAV and then move on to the next level aka AURA.As of now,the whole nautanki wrt AMCA seems to be just an waste of time and energy.I mean where is the need of a 2nd kind of stealth fighter,when we are gonna get the FGFA anyway??

Well Sir I dont think so that AMCA is having no value. yes it might be not adding anything or we may delay for experienced enough to built AMCA but its need to develop indigenous platforms. AMCA will be find its own value in the Air Force. I am not going much on technical specifications of the plane or use, but yes if it is question to develop indigenous plane AMCA i M WITH DRDO.

 

[Dash]

Its no if the DRDO do things properly by first finish LCA and then learn from the production of FGFA.

I appreciate your thoughts, but this will yeild nothing..

 

[MST]

I will only tell you one thing, Just wait and watch.

The way things are going for LCA MK1 will actually put the date of FOC to 2017 just to be on the safe side

India agreed to remove its bunkers. So Chinese troops went home. They send 30 troops to tell India that India must dismantle the bunker. And India got the message and complied.



India should consider F-35s just in case AMCA is too difficult to build.

Indian Navy will have F -35 for its second Indigenous Air Craft Carrier - Vishal.

 

[conworldus]

The way things are going for LCA MK1 will actually put the date of FOC to 2017 just to be on the safe side



Indian Navy will have F -35 for its second Indigenous Air Craft Carrier - Vishal.

Source?

And... since the F-35 tech aspect is pretty much off limit to even the closest allies, how do India plan to share the data link between this plane and all the Russian jets? Also your entire aircraft weapon system will not be compatible with the F-35. So you will also need a completely different weapon system. Unless India plans to operate two completely incompatible chains of air command? I mean, seriously...

 

[rockstarIN]

Sorry mate, but that's just paper logic! You look at the figures on paper and conclude things, that doesn't really make sense. Only because the US aims on 2000 x stealth fighters, it doesn't mean that India needs 1000 too, or that India can afford to operate 1000 x stealth fighters. Not even China will have that many stealth fighters in the next 2 x decades, besides that we might not see manned stealth fighters in 2 decades anymore.

And we want to Rafales, because they offer advantages and alternatives in it's performance, that additional MKIs, or Mig 35s didn't. The main advantage of a stealth fighter however is the stealth capability, no matter if it's heavy or medium class and the general performance of AMCA would be far inferior to FGFA anyway, not to mention that both will probably have the same weapon packege too, which leaves no operational benefits. Moreover, with LCAs, Rafales and MKIs remaining in service for decades, there is no role, not even a niche one left behind FGFA, that AMCA would be useful for.
With (imo) 300-400 x FGFAs, AURA UCAVs and other armed drones, next to 600 to 700 x 4.5th fighters, we will have a modern and capable air force for decades, till the replacement of the MKI might come.

I made up this logic by just looking around the production schedules of US and other air forces. It is too early to say that in 2 decades all those manned flights will be obsolete. Two decades isn't enough for the 5th Gen itself for production. Tow decades is a very small time for the F-35s to get obsolete. And the number of air crafts operated by each AFs will be depending upon their economy itself. I'm not saying we should have 1000+ 5th gen fighters down the line, but the replacements should be the same generation at that particular time else we should have happily accepted LCAs in the current format.

 

[MST]

Source?

And... since the F-35 tech aspect is pretty much off limit to even the closest allies, how do India plan to share the data link between this plane and all the Russian jets? Also your entire aircraft weapon system will not be compatible with the F-35. So you will also need a completely different weapon system. Unless India plans to operate two completely incompatible chains of air command? I mean, seriously...

Google it man.

IN had asked for RFI on F 35 and the same was given by LM. The only plane with Catapult launch system relevant for the next 50 years is F 35. And INS Vishal will use Catapult Launch System.

 

[sancho]

Google it man.

IN had asked for RFI on F 35 and the same was given by LM. The only plane with Catapult launch system relevant for the next 50 years is F 35. And INS Vishal will use Catapult Launch System.

That doesn't mean much. IN even send the RFI to the Eurofighter consortium, that only have some basic studies of a naval fighter and later also allowed Saab to participate, than doesn't even have experience in developing a carrier fighter. They basically checked what fighters could be available, for what kind of take off system but that's it. Infact although LM has respondet to the RFI, the US government has never officially allowed an F35 sale to India, while IN already has ruled out the F35.
The most likely candidates are still the Rafale and an upgraded F18SH, if we can't get catapults, we will go for N-LCAs and N-FGFAs for sure!

 

[MST]

That doesn't mean much. IN even send the RFI to the Eurofighter consortium, that only have some basic studies of a naval fighter and later also allowed Saab to participate, than doesn't even have experience in developing a carrier fighter. They basically checked what fighters could be available, for what kind of take off system but that's it. Infact although LM has respondet to the RFI, the US government has never officially allowed an F35 sale to India, while IN already has ruled out the F35.
The most likely candidates are still the Rafale and an upgraded F18SH, if we can't get catapults, we will go for N-LCAs and N-FGFAs for sure!

Few points below:
1. Considering that INS Vishal will be catobar (now its getting more and more clearer) we can easily rule out FGFA or any other russian fighter. For a 65000 tonne carrier built for power projection lets also rule out LCA as the primary fighter. One just can't power project using LCA. Its a point interceptor.

2. Euro fighter Have ruled themselves out. Grippen again is in a similar class of LCA won't be selected.

3. So the contest essentially is between Rafale and American fighters (F18 SH and F 35). Now considering INS Vishal is inducted in 2025 (a very optimistic assessment) it will be in service till atleast 2065. Now Do we really think IN will go F18SH. the world will be moving from 5th GEN to 6th GEN fighter in that period from 2025 to 2065 (starting with US as early as 2030). Do we seriously think that IN will fly a fourth GEN fighter for Power Projection.

4. Rafale is the dark horse. But I have faith in American Business sense that they will not agree to let IN use Rafale on the Catapult launch system they are providing. So as far as I am concerned F 35 is the favorite. And as long as we are not cribbing about TOT the Americans will be more than happy to Give F 35 to India. If we negotiate hard we may get a deal similar to Israel where we can put some of our sub systems.

 

[sancho]

Now Do we really think IN will go F18SH.

If we have to, of course! You are forgetting the limitations that would come with the F35, that makes it operationaly a major mistake for IN. Be it the lack of radar source codes, be it the lack of stand off weapons other than JSOW possibly, be it even the lack of not being able to maintain the fighters in India, which will force IN to send them abroad for every minor issue. All this at high costs and forget about any customisation, even the Israelis get only very minor stuff and we won't get anything, just as any other export customer.
Not to forget that it is likely that the Super Hornet and the Rafale will have weapon pods, improved techs and RCS reductions, which makes them still very capable for several years, however, if IN and ADA/DRDO would have any sense, they would go for a catapult capable AMCA development, which is still the best option for our requirements. But first we need to get the catapults, which is the first problem and then we have to see what the US wants in return.

 

[MST]

If we have to, of course! You are forgetting the limitations that would come with the F35, that makes it operationaly a major mistake for IN. Be it the lack of radar source codes, be it the lack of stand off weapons other than JSOW possibly, be it even the lack of not being able to maintain the fighters in India, which will force IN to send them abroad for every minor issue. All this at high costs and forget about any customisation, even the Israelis get only very minor stuff and we won't get anything, just as any other export customer.
Not to forget that it is likely that the Super Hornet and the Rafale will have weapon pods, improved techs and RCS reductions, which makes them still very capable for several years, however, if IN and ADA/DRDO would have any sense, they would go for a catapult capable AMCA development, which is still the best option for our requirements. But first we need to get the catapults, which is the first problem and then we have to see what the US wants in return.

Won't the same issue apply to F18 SH as well. I don't think US will give any source code for F 18 either. The same set of weapons will apply to both the aircrafts. So between these aircrafts I just don't see how come F18 is better than F 35 for India.

Rafale defintely is different but it is again dependent of the nod from US which I personally don't think will come.

Also US did allow us to put sub components on P8-I. Which again is cutting edge platform. So I think they will allow us to put such systems on F 35. Considering Israel is making changes we can even opt for that version.

Overall its still too early to say anything concrete but I personally think that if IN goes for CATOBAR for INS Vishal then F 35 has the best chances.

 

[surya kiran]

If we have to, of course! You are forgetting the limitations that would come with the F35, that makes it operationaly a major mistake for IN. Be it the lack of radar source codes, be it the lack of stand off weapons other than JSOW possibly, be it even the lack of not being able to maintain the fighters in India, which will force IN to send them abroad for every minor issue. All this at high costs and forget about any customisation, even the Israelis get only very minor stuff and we won't get anything, just as any other export customer.
Not to forget that it is likely that the Super Hornet and the Rafale will have weapon pods, improved techs and RCS reductions, which makes them still very capable for several years, however, if IN and ADA/DRDO would have any sense, they would go for a catapult capable AMCA development, which is still the best option for our requirements. But first we need to get the catapults, which is the first problem and then we have to see what the US wants in return.

what if the IN partners with Mig to come up with a Mig 29KC version for catobar operations? Will that not make more sense? Part commonality can be maintained and everything said and done, we have spent quite a lot of time on the Mig 29. Over the next 10 years work towards a catobar Mig29Kc and incorporate possible avionics advancements into the Mig29K also?

 

[sancho]

Won't the same issue apply to F18 SH as well. I don't think US will give any source code for F 18 either. The same set of weapons will apply to both the aircrafts. So between these aircrafts I just don't see how come F18 is better than F 35 for India.

Partially only, because that is not their latest tech anymore. From MMRCA we know that the radar source codes won't be shared, but logistics and maintenance are easier and not as restricted like they are for the F35. The weapon package also can be increased with other available options, be it Israeli, or European, which is not possible with the F35 either, where the internal weapon bays are aimed on US weapons mainly. So the F18SH is the better compromise between operational restrictions and costs, in case we have to take a US fighter to get catapults, while the F35 is too restricted and costly for us.

Also US did allow us to put sub components on P8-I. Which again is cutting edge platform. So I think they will allow us to put such systems on F 35.

Subcomponents, mainly for communications, but nothing important. We can't add any weapon, all main sensors are sourced from them and it has no stealth or NG avionics in it like the F35 has and that makes a big difference. Not even F35 partners are allowed to customize their fighters, which is why our FGFA deal is so much better than what they get.

 

[sancho]

what if the IN partners with Mig to come up with a Mig 29KC version for catobar operations? Will that not make more sense? Part commonality can be maintained and everything said and done, we have spent quite a lot of time on the Mig 29. Over the next 10 years work towards a catobar Mig29Kc and incorporate possible avionics advancements into the Mig29K also?

Navalising a fighter for catapult launch is much more difficult than for ski-jump take off, since not only the front gear needs more modifications, but the whole airframe has to be able to take higher forces. That's why a catobar version of the EF was ruled out pretty fast and why it won't be effective to try to do it with the Mig, especially if you have 3 of the self options, that also are more capable than the Mig. If we go for a development, it should be a naval AMCA with Dassault as a consulting partner for the navalisation.