Indian Arihant a rip off Russian sub?

[Obambam]

Till a few years back, China was the biggest arms importer in the world. Even today Pakistan imports a considerable amount of arms as percentage of their defense budget, which btw is greater than India's!!!

As China is moving towards indigenizationn and self sufficiency, so is India. The only difference being that we are a few years behind in that process. That is why we are trying, with help of course, to create our own planes, submarines, ships, etc along with TOT so that soon enough we can reduce this dependency on imports.

Of course some people's head are so thick that this concept doesn't seem to enter their heads.

Exactly. That is why people always pointed fingers at China for "oh they are copying", "oh they can only come up with inferior products" or what not.
I guess those thick skulled numb brains really need to have its head examined.

Of course, China has already gone past the stages where we need to mass import any military technology. We have also have the benefits of having major production chains and facilities in place. So assuming that India is going through the same evolutionary phases, then by the time it reaches similar stages of present China, China would be even further away in its developments.

 

[Splurgenxs]

Exactly. That is why people always pointed fingers at China for "oh they are copying", "oh they can only come up with inferior products" or what not.
I guess those thick skulled numb brains really need to have its head examined.

Of course, China has already gone past the stages where we need to mass import any military technology. We have also have the benefits of having major production chains and facilities in place. So assuming that India is going through the same evolutionary phases, then by the time it reaches similar stages of present China, China would be even further away in its developments.

Not entirely
The flaw with this theory is that---
In a scenario when China has already learn what it need to learn from external sources. IT will have no choice but to pioneer Ingenious products ..and the aggregate time India would be behind, it would have greater technological acceleration thanks to phenomenon of Competitive market access + Ideas from China.
The point when both Countries have become Technologically saturated is the time when we actually see who really Innovates with a blank slate.

 

[MilSpec]

What makes me laugh is how sensitive Indians are about their “departments” claim of “indigenous” weapons.

On three different threads, on three different “indigenous” products, I have provided clear cut proofs that all these three products were not indigenous in any sense. No Indian has responded in meaningful way or provided convincing arguments against the evidence produced, despite making personal comments, jibes, snaring, bringing Pakistan in to discussion, political issues etc.

After engaging with Indians for few days, I understand why their scientists and departments play “indigenous” game with Indians.
When the whole population is so blinded with patriotism that it wouldn’t question the clear cut evidence that all these are borrowed technologies and none of the weapons are produced by the Indians, then the department and the scientists are entitle to use this card to hide their deficiencies and failures.

At least someone admitted it may have Charlie II body. We all know designing a weapon is the most important part. If you already had the design available to you including consultancy services from people who actually build the weapon. Then it is dishonesty to call it indigenous.

The actual structure is the main thing fitting in other equipment from different suppliers around the world is quite a common practice in defense industry.

In all three incidents it is proven that the design is not Indian. So the question of “indigenous” does not arrive at all. But if Indians want to insist, then they can go their marry way.

Facts remain, all three product I discussed have taken over 3+ decades to produce despite borrowed designs. Do not fulfil the requirements of the force for which they are produced.

All I have heard are lame excuses and personal remarks, no valid and persuasive arguments to prove their points and prove that these are “indigenous” designs as claimed.

@crankthatskunk :

To remain on topic, I would refrain from going beyond the arihant class SUB. As I figure you have no knowledge of product design or feasablilty analysis.
As being an engineer on SU30MKI team, I very well know the difference between license manufacturing and Indigenous design. Your pre conceived notion of Indian inferiority leads to believe the inability of the Indian establishment of producing Indegenious Subs, A/c's, A/C carriers and other weapon system. Your claim is intended not to bust any myths but to undermine the perseverance and struggle of Indian engineers and scientist who work around the clock to make these systems.

The reason I blatantly repudiate your disingenuous claims is for the simple reason that you have no idea of the Arihants capabilities, functions and appearence. Arihant's information is not declassified for you and me to pass judgement. About the claim of the programs indigenousness, I am convinced you have no idea of design or assembly or product life cycle management, because it is impossible to maintain a complex assembly without understanding a design ground up. Next is the material science, every component in the assembly of a complex system is designed with the material to withstand its design loads/displacement characteristics. it will be impossible to understand all the different alloys and their intended purpose in the design by reverse engineering.

The problem here is not about Indians being overly patriotic about indigenous system. We Indians are as proud of the Mig 29's as we are of the MKI's. The real reason here is the inability of Pakistan to deliver a significant indigenous system and the frustration of the members thereof. That is the real reason for propping up thread questioning the indigenousness of AKASH SAM, Arihant, LCA, LCH, ALH, and so on.

I understand the rationale, And i will keep answering you queries.

thanks

 

[crankthatskunk]

@kingkobra

It was reported back in Feb 2010 the arihant is doing sea trials.

First nuke-sub undergoes trial

New Delhi, Feb 23, DHNS

India’s first nuclear submarine, ‘INS Arihant’, has gone to the high-seas for an extended trial, indicating that the boomer is on course to be inducted by the Navy by 2011.

One of India’s top secret defence projects for over three decades, ‘INS Arihant’ with a 80 Mwe nuclear reactor at its core, was launched in the water in last July. The sea trial, which began a few months ago, will be carried out for more than a year in different conditions to test the endurance and performance of the nuclear submarine, which is capable of staying under water for months, sources told Deccan Herald.
First nuke-sub undergoes trial

But in December 2010

We read this news in Indian press;

While no one would elaborate whether it would be K-4 or K-15 missile, sources at the Chandipur base said preparations were on for the test. The missile has been planned to be launched from a Pontoon (replica of a submarine) which is being readied.

Both the missiles are submarine launched and ready for a trial. While K-15 has a strike range of about 700 km, K-4 will hit the target 3,500 km away. Land version of the missile has been renamed as Shaurya which has already been tested once at Chandipur in 2008.

The Pontoon is, however, used to test the K missiles because India does not have an operational submarine capable to undertake firing of such missiles.
Though India has developed the advanced technology vehicle (ATV) INS Arihant, it is yet to begin sea trials or even fire up nuclear reactor.
Missile tests will follow after the submarine completes the sea trials. So far, K-15 missile has been tested successfully six times. The K-4, though, has been tested only once in January this year and it was a secret mission.

http://expressbuzz.com/nation/drdo-readies-underwater-missile-test-fire/234790.html

The moral of the story so far is,

Even though it is reported back in Feb 2010 Arihant is doing sea trials. But until end of 2010 it did not have either the missile launching facilities or the nuclear engine.

Proven the floating hull had been doing the sea trial.

My question to Indians, when did Arihant got its nuclear reactor fitted? And when did it have achieved weapon capabilities?

Provide proofs or admit, the floating hull is doing the sea trial.

 

[Splurgenxs]

The moral of the story so far is,

Even though it is reported back in Feb 2010 Arihant is doing sea trials. But until end of 2010 it did not have either the missile launching facilities or the nuclear engine.

Proven the floating hull had been doing the sea trial.

My question to Indians, when did Arihant got its nuclear reactor fitted? And when did it have achieved weapon capabilities?

Provide proofs or admit, the floating hull is doing the sea trial.

We admit the floating hull is doing the trials ...there, u good?.

If u think an under test missile should be launched directly form an untested platform , Good for u.
No sane Individual will whip up a nuke sub just to test a sub-Missle when a cheaper , Feasible and more objective oriented platform is available at quick disposal.

Every thing takes its due processes and clearance.

 

[lepziboy]

everything will be clear when arihant is commissioned so please just wait

 

[DOSattack]

everything will be clear when arihant is commissioned so please just wait

Hey buddy i want to know how to start my own topic, how do i do it? or start a new forum, i cant seem to find the option to start a thread

 

[crankthatskunk]

@Sandy_3126

To remain on topic, I would refrain from going beyond the arihant class SUB. As I figure you have no knowledge of product design or feasablilty analysis.
As being an engineer on SU30MKI team, I very well know the difference between license manufacturing and Indigenous design. Your pre conceived notion of Indian inferiority leads to believe the inability of the Indian establishment of producing Indegenious Subs, A/c's, A/C carriers and other weapon system. Your claim is intended not to bust any myths but to undermine the perseverance and struggle of Indian engineers and scientist who work around the clock to make these systems.

I wouldn’t make tall claims, but I am very very prudent and methodical person. Joking apart, look at my posts, until now I have systematically taken care of every things thrown at me in 3 different threads of “Indigenous” projects by the Indians.

You are more than welcome to provide proofs that it is indigenous design, until now, every thing I have read proves very clearly it is based on Charlie II, decommissioned 70’s technology by the Russians.

This was proven from the fact that Indian hired a Charlie II for three years to gain experience.

As you mentioned you had been an Engineer on SU30MKI, please tell me if you have to train a pilot on a SU30MKI, would you send him to a Mirage 2000 or F16, or to a twin turbo jet? General training is done on usual general trainers. But for actual product training on specific aircraft, two seat trainer versions of the specified aircraft are used for pilot’s training.

The reason I blatantly repudiate your disingenuous claims is for the simple reason that you have no idea of the Arihants capabilities, functions and appearence. Arihant's information is not declassified for you and me to pass judgement. About the claim of the programs indigenousness, I am convinced you have no idea of design or assembly or product life cycle management, because it is impossible to maintain a complex assembly without understanding a design ground up. Next is the material science, every component in the assembly of a complex system is designed with the material to withstand its design loads/displacement characteristics. it will be impossible to understand all the different alloys and their intended purpose in the design by reverse engineering.

With due respect to you, until now what I have heard are tall claims of indigenous products but those claims failed to meet the required proofs. I can repeat your own words, your claim is disingenuous, you are not providing me any facts or proofs, what you are saying, look it is classified so we don’t know. Doesn’t it means what you saying could only be at best described as pure speculations?
Do you want me to believe in pure speculations? Or do you want me to believe in tall claims like your scientists, trust us; we say it is indigenous, so it is. Even though the proofs shows otherwise. But what are few physical proofs compare to tall claims of Indian? They said it, so world better believe it. Proofs? Nah we don’t work on that prudent method acceptable in the world. We say, you believe.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but you are saying nothing better than what your other fellow Indians had been saying post after post.

I will ignore your other comments, I am not going to boost either, but I am sufficiently educated. I leave it to that.

Fact remains, until now, the design is nothing more than a discontinued 70’s Russian technology Charlie II. We know for testing other components Russian help was obtained from the start by the Indians.

Until anyone of you provide conclusive proofs of what other components are and if they are indigenous, what you have are speculations and your insistence.
I don’t work on that principle, show me the colour of the money or hold your peace, is my Moto.

 

[lepziboy]

Hey buddy i want to know how to start my own topic, how do i do it? or start a new forum, i cant seem to find the option to start a thread

you can see where it says post a new thread above the sticky threads.

 

[crankthatskunk]

We admit the floating hull is doing the trials ...there, u good?.

If u think an under test missile should be launched directly form an untested platform , Good for u.
No sane Individual will whip up a nuke sub just to test a sub-Missle when a cheaper , Feasible and more objective oriented platform is available at quick disposal.

Every thing takes its due processes and clearance.

If I say, I am disappointed from your responses, it would be an understatement. let's see, the quote again.

The Pontoon is, however, used to test the K missiles because India does not have an operational submarine capable to undertake firing of such missiles.
Though India has developed the advanced technology vehicle (ATV) INS Arihant, it is yet to begin sea trials or even fire up nuclear reactor.
Missile tests will follow after the submarine completes the sea trials. So far, K-15 missile has been tested successfully six times. The K-4, though, has been tested only once in January this year and it was a secret mission.

1- There is no operational submarine, fine, I noted it from the start.

2- But do you fail to notice it says in Dec 2010, Arihant is yet to begin sea trials? But Indian say in Feb 2010 Arihant is doing sea trials. Both your news contradicting each other.

3- When did the Arihant begin the sea trials?

4- When will it have the nuclear reactor fitted?

5- It says that K-4 had been tested once in January 2010, it was a secret mission. Mission of what? Was it tested on an operational submarine? In that case the first part of the paragraph is incorrect. Or if there is no operational submarine available and no weapons capabilities are installed on Arihant, where was this mission conducted and how? Was it done on Pontoon, then it can not be a mission.

My advice, read the post where it mentioned how long it will require to rip the submarine open to install the nuclear reactor.

man I am tired, I wasn't expecting this, no wonder Indians projects take 3 to 4 decades and they still don't get desired results and specifications.

 

[Obambam]

Not entirely
The flaw with this theory is that---
In a scenario when China has already learn what it need to learn from external sources. IT will have no choice but to pioneer Ingenious products ..and the aggregate time India would be behind, it would have greater technological acceleration thanks to phenomenon of Competitive market access + Ideas from China.
The point when both Countries have become Technologically saturated is the time when we actually see who really Innovates with a blank slate.

The flaw to your theory is China has been doing things by ourselves for quite sometime already, it is not that we have acquired what we need to acquire from external resources (developments are on going) but rather it was a self made decision to start being ingenious.
China could pursue the path of India and mass import Russian technologies, but there is no reason to anymore when things can be done by ourselves without relying solely upon others. On certain aspects we are already on par if not better than the west. Moreover we have the resources and economy to further our developments. I can't say the same about the west though (especially in Europe).

India does have the benefits of competitive market access, but it lacks the developed infrastructures, ready resources and economy which China has.
China has opened our door to the world market since 30 years ago and already we are now the second largest economy and already coming out with technologies that rivals the west. So as you put it when 'technologies becomes saturated' it will be the ones with the most money to spend, education, facilities, infrastructures and human resources who will come out as champions. As of now, both are still developing and is behind the west especially America. India will have a lot of catching up to do if she wants to get to where China is today and by the time she does, China would already be on another whole new level (developments are on going).

 

[shrivatsa]

If I say, I am disappointed from your responses, it would be an understatement. let's see, the quote again.



1- There is no operational submarine, fine, I noted it from the start.

2- But do you fail to notice it says in Dec 2010, Arihant is yet to begin sea trials? But Indian say in Feb 2010 Arihant is doing sea trials. Both your news contradicting each other.

3- When did the Arihant begin the sea trials?

4- When will it have the nuclear reactor fitted?

5- It says that K-4 had been tested once in January 2010, it was a secret mission. Mission of what? Was it tested on an operational submarine? In that case the first part of the paragraph is incorrect. Or if there is no operational submarine available and no weapons capabilities are installed on Arihant, where was this mission conducted and how? Was it done on Pontoon, then it can not be a mission.

My advice, read the post where it mentioned how long it will require to rip the submarine open to install the nuclear reactor.

man I am tired, I wasn't expecting this, no wonder Indians projects take 3 to 4 decades and they still don't get desired results and specifications.

Why should India disclose all these info to public,so that we can show it as a proof to a random Pakistani. Get a life dude

 

[faithfulguy]

The flaw to your theory is China has been doing things by ourselves for quite sometime already, it is not that we have acquired what we need to acquire from external resources (developments are on going) but rather it was a self made decision to start being ingenious.
China could pursue the path of India and mass import Russian technologies, but there is no reason to anymore when things can be done by ourselves without relying solely upon others. On certain aspects we are already on par if not better than the west. Moreover we have the resources and economy to further our developments. I can't say the same about the west though (especially in Europe).

India does have the benefits of competitive market access, but it lacks the developed infrastructures, ready resources and economy which China has.
China has opened our door to the world market since 30 years ago and already we are now the second largest economy and already coming out with technologies that rivals the west. So as you put it when 'technologies becomes saturated' it will be the ones with the most money to spend, education, facilities, infrastructures and human resources who will come out as champions. As of now, both are still developing and is behind the west especially America. India will have a lot of catching up to do if she wants to get to where China is today and by the time she does, China would already be on another whole new level (developments are on going).

Actually, both countries are still way behind the west, especially America, when it comes to over all technology. China still has a long way to go before it catch up to Russia and Europe before it can think about matching the US. However, with its capital, infrastructure and the single minded authoritarian government, I can see it catching up to the Europeans and Russians soon and maybe America in 50+ years.

As for India, it need to focus on industrial and infrastructure development. Until this is done, India will never have the basis of a manufacturing industry to support the military industrial complex. It should forget about relying only on service and IT and try to grow like any country in history did.

 

[lepziboy]

^^its classified government stuff.like the article that came out about the K family missiles they said that India was gonna test them again on january or feb 2011 but we didnt get any news but most likely they already tested it and they will release that next year maybe

 

[Splurgenxs]

The flaw to your theory is China has been doing things by ourselves for quite sometime already, it is not that we have acquired what we need to acquire from external resources (developments are on going) but rather it was a self made decision to start being ingenious.
China could pursue the path of India and mass import Russian technologies, but there is no reason to anymore when things can be done by ourselves without relying solely upon others. On certain aspects we are already on par if not better than the west. Moreover we have the resources and economy to further our developments. I can't say the same about the west though (especially in Europe).

India does have the benefits of competitive market access, but it lacks the developed infrastructures, ready resources and economy which China has.
China has opened our door to the world market since 30 years ago and already we are now the second largest economy and already coming out with technologies that rivals the west. So as you put it when 'technologies becomes saturated' it will be the ones with the most money to spend, education, facilities, infrastructures and human resources who will come out as champions. As of now, both are still developing and is behind the west especially America. India will have a lot of catching up to do if she wants to get to where China is today and by the time she does, China would already be on another whole new level (developments are on going).

are u saying that ur Catching up to the West is not possible? UR whole statement contradicts ur thesis.
Or are u saying that India cant become Into a manufacturing hub? OR did Chinas manufacturing was gifted by aliens?

India is already half way there and will get closer. As economies grow there economies go through another "phenomenon"*sigh* called Economic saturation where Countries to grow at 9 to 10% tend to overheat when there economic base value Increases and cant sustain it. All developed economies tend to go through that phase.

So ur theory that China will keep growing more than its competitor toward Infinity is baseless. Theres a reason why countries on the behind tend to grow faster. It may take India 30 more years to match china but well get there