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India lags behind Pakistan in missiles

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They have been provided - however, those sources and links are not claiming MIRV capability in Pakistan, only pointing out R&D into it. Of course we cannot claim MIRV capability until it is actually tested.

The rest of my post referred to the fact that Pakistan's missile program that resulted in the development of the missiles I mentioned was indigenous - detailed arguments over this, including comparisons with Chinese and North Korean missiles have taken place already in existing threads.

Heck, I even pointed out a discussion on BR on the origins of Shaheen II that came to the same conclusion, that there was no Chinese/NK missile comparable to the Shaheen II when it was tested.

I am not sure why every new Indian who joins this forum has to regurgitate the same old arguments and distortions - it must be a rite of passage for you guys or something...

i personally give a damn about how pakistan got it's missiles...if they work everything else become irrelevant...i'd probably would have not even bothered to look into this thread had it been just about the pakistani missile capabilties...
but when you start a thread that stubbornly states "india LAGS behind pakistan in missile tech"....you need to be more than a motor-mouth.period.
you and i know that discussions on this forum and all the threads and posts dont mean $hit...of they are not backed with credible links
as far as MIRV is concerned...you should know that if pakistan and india start a race to manufacture the first MIRv....india would win hands down due it's current posture....and to porve that i've postd links...
i would worry more about china than pakistan any day...but when you start comparing things with india...you get all the indian attention you need.
peace.
 
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i personally give a damn about how pakistan got it's missiles...if they work everything else become irrelevant...i'd probably would have not even bothered to look into this thread had it been just about the pakistani missile capabilties...
but when you start a thread that stubbornly states "india LAGS behind pakistan in missile tech"....you need to be more than a motor-mouth.period.
you and i know that discussions on this forum and all the threads and posts dont mean ...of they are not backed with credible links
as far as MIRV is concerned...you should know that if pakistan and india start a race to manufacture the first MIRv....india would win hands down due it's current posture....and to porve that i've postd links...
i would worry more about china than pakistan any day...but when you start comparing things with india...you get all the indian attention you need.
peace.

The article is from a rabidly anti-Pakistan source, the Times of India I believe. Don't blame us for having a 'motor mouth' when it is your own countrymen critiquing Indian capabilities.

At this point in term of operational capabilities (In missiles) Pakistan does seem to have the advantage over India. It is possible that India has an advantage in MIRV R&D, but we will only know when the two sides test and induct.
 
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The article is from a rabidly anti-Pakistan source, the Times of India I believe. Don't blame us for having a 'motor mouth' when it is your own countrymen critiquing Indian capabilities.

At this point in term of operational capabilities (In missiles) Pakistan does seem to have the advantage over India. It is possible that India has an advantage in MIRV R&D, but we will only know when the two sides test and induct.

well it seems you'd hold your ground and i'd hold mine...lets call it quits...
 
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posts link bro(non wiki)
it doesnt work like this...

Why cany you see your self?

Shaheen-II 17.4 mtere long,1.4 meter diameter, with Launch Weight of 25000 kg with 2500km range is totally different missile altogether when compared to the Chinese M-18 This designation may have referred to a two-stage solid-propellant missile with a range of 1,000 km and a 400 kg warhead. It is reported that this missile had a length of 12.0 m, a body diameter of 1.1 m, and a launch weight of 7,000 kg. There were two possible trial launches in Iran in 1991, over 700 and 1,000 km ranges, program was terminated in 1992.I mean how def one have to be to conclude that M-18 and shaheen-II are same when there is hell of difference between two. Same is the case for the Hatf 2A Abdali SRBM , Hatf 3 Ghaznavi SRBM , Hatf 4 Shaheen 1 MRBM

These articles are always based on writers’ imaginations lacking basic facts. just for example they can’t tell you how they know the rate of production of Pakistani ballistic missiles. As far as MIRV is concerned India certainly have a good base to build on at this point in time but we never know about the Pakistani capability until they test one and that’s how it always was and likely to remain no matter one likes this approach or not
 
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posts link bro(non wiki)
it doesnt work like this...

the north korean missiles failed just as the indian missiles fail...and they corrected them and now have the capacity to develop ICBMs...it loks as though you were served missiles on a platter...
well here's one thing that can be done to prove that pakistan indeed excels when it comoes to missile development...post links of past launches and state the reason for thelaunches...eg..'this launch was done for trajectory control/testing'...'this launch was done to integrate a new guidance system'...etc
all missiles are tested in a step-by-step way...
you'd like to read this...all of your missiles are derivatives if not ready made ones...this might be an eye opener...and if you refuse to believe this article...read the references...it's fairly accurate.

NTI: Country Overviews: Pakistan: Missile Overview

First let me say that Indian and NK failures can’t be compared due to the fact that India did corrected them and NK missiles fail one after another and its ICBM capability is based on the estimates not on the actual testing

Secondly Pakistan never provides details about the tests due to secrecy concern this how they always surprised the world and they like that way. Three or four years ago they said about the H-2 and H-4 operational with PAF but even today we don’t have a picture. As I have said before that they are not going to change whether one likes it or not

As far as the they sourly have put together for the purpose of record keeping of what appeared in media but nothing about the things like Terminal guidance for shaheen series etc so they are not more then going to a library with old news papers
 
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First let me say that Indian and NK failures can’t be compared due to the fact that India did corrected them and NK missiles fail one after another and its ICBM capability is based on the estimates not on the actual testing

Secondly Pakistan never provides details about the tests due to secrecy concern this how they always surprised the world and they like that way. Three or four years ago they said about the H-2 and H-4 operational with PAF but even today we don’t have a picture. As I have said before that they are not going to change whether one likes it or not

As far as the they sourly have put together for the purpose of record keeping of what appeared in media but nothing about the things like Terminal guidance for shaheen series etc so they are not more then going to a library with old news papers

well then there isabsolutely no way to say that your missiles are beter than ours...because we have an open testing technique..the results are in the open for all to speculate and appreciate/criticize...while yours is in a veil of secrecy.
i need hard facts in the form of stats of pakistani missile programs and their progress over the years to compare the stats that i have of the indian missiles.
the only way we'd know would be when they are actually put to use...so till then dont be so sure.
 
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dude
you say that the north korean-american differences caused your deals to come in the limelight....and the russians who 'allegedly' sold us their missiles have their relations with the americans been friendly?

Who says Russian sold you the ballistic missiles? Link please? Thats new.

Aside from that, there is no heck of a way that without cooperation you have built your ballistic missiles. There is heck absolutely no way that your scientists didn't go abroad to study in rocket science.

India can't build a helicopter, fighter aircraft or a tank without help, let alone a ballistic program (not nuclear since your still very behind) and space program.

am i confused or aree you?

Sorry, i get confused reading confused material, and people who are confused about what exactly they are arguing.

you talk of MIRV capabiltiy as it's nothing...only the yanks and the ruskies have MIRV capability owing to their mature space programs...the Chinese are working on it and have a decent space program of their own to back them...when the chandrayaan mission was launched there was a concern on the transfer of tacit knowledge on payload integration assistance by the americans through the M3 and Mini-SAR on the Chandrayaan-I...which is a key requirement of a multiple trajectory MIRV launch vehicle.
as far as india is concerned on the MIRV...we indeed have the tech and we have demonstrated that...since this might appear foolish to you..and i dont want to make that sound like a foolish claim...
lets discuss the MIRV tech then...
MIRV requires 3 things lets discuss them in detail..

No one is denying the space program capability that India has shown. No one is denying the ballistic missile program. However, what is in question is the nuclear capability of most of your ballistic missile as this article highlights.

a)launching capabilty: india-has it through the space porgram;pakistan- has it

Right.

b)multiple payload integration: india-has launched a world record 10 satellites at a go(i've provided the link at the end);pakistan-no way near(you'd want me to believe that it's all happening in secret but that counts for nothing)

Not until your prime ballistic missiles are nuclear warhead, you can forget about MIRV capability for a few decades. No one is saying that Pakistan has the capability. Like i said before, "read the article". The article quotes that the work on the MIRV is being done. And all the tests Pakistan does not only does it check the operational status of its programmes (both Shaheen and Ghauri) but also enhances and upgrades its guidance programmes as well. Which the article highlights it very fairly. If you care to read.

c)re-entry and payload delivery: india-launching satellites i.e placing them in precise orbits is though tougher than parying them on land at prices times...but is still not the same.so what did india do...we started working on the 'space vehicles' which have re-entry capabilities(i have the link in the end) these space vehicles have enormous potential both in civilian use and in military use(what pakistan seeks to achieve);pakistan-tall claims and a link which has nothing more than a line dedicated to the pakistani MIRV aspirations.
now it is always my effort that i be as honest as possible when i make claims...i expect you to reciprocate in the same.

here are the links ...
india launches a world record 10 satellites..
Slashdot | India Launches 10 Satellites At Once

us concerned over potential MIRV tech transfer through the chandrayaan program...
http://www.cdi.org/PDFs/IndiaMIRV.pdf

inida tests apace re-entry tech...
India Tests Technology for Space Vehicles

peace.

All of the above says zero about your MIRV capability in the nuclear ballistic missile program. Its going to take decades for both countries to achieve this capability. While Pakistan is not much interested in the area of space advancement. It is very much interested in advancing its military capability, and no doubt it will achieve its desire results.

Also for the sake of discussion, when Pakistan tested its nuclear missiles. It was flat out denied by India that such tests had taken place, and Pakistan didn't have such a capability. The claims were based on the fact that India was unable to pick the tests on its radars. Such highlighted the failure of Indian intelligence and preparedness in the event of an attack.
 
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The only Indo-Russian joint venture has been Brahmos. And we havent shied away from denying it. All others were developed indeginious. India definetly has russian cooperation in defence, but India has always maintained that it would produce missiles indeginiously as a part of Integrated guided missile Development program(IGMDP). All Indian missiles from Prithvi to Surya(ICBM) have been/are being developed by the DRDO INDEGINOUSLY.

Take a look at it yourself.

Integrated Guided Missile Development Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And another unbiased article declaiming the fact the the Ghauri program has nothing to do with North Korea.

Ghauri

The most recent development in Pakistan's ballistic missile program was the flight testing of the Ghauri (Hatf-V) missile in April 1998. The Ghauri is liquid-fueled and is Pakistan's imported version of the North Korean Nodong, itself a fancy Scud. Official Pakistani statements claim the missile has a maximum range of 1500 km carrying a 700 kg payload, but analysis by the U.S. Department of Defense of the Nodong puts the range closer to 1000 km. According to Dr. A. Q. Khan, who is credited with being the father of Pakistan's nuclear and ballistic missile programs, the Ghauri flew 1100 km in its flight-test in April, supporting the Pentagon's analysis. Press reports put the tested range as being between 700 km and 1200 km.

North Korea has been an important missile partner for Pakistan. North Korea admitted publicly in June 1998 that it is developing and exporting ballistic missiles to make money, though it did not specify to whom. The Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States , led by the Honorable Donald Rumsfeld (Rumsfeld Commission), believes that in addition to supplying the Nodong, North Korea supplied production facilities, and the technology for the missile.

Intelligence and satellite images reportedly have revealed the delivery of warhead canisters from North Korea to Pakistan's Kahuta Research Laboratories (KRL) in June 1998 and have disclosed increased activity at KRL's missile facility, suggesting that production of the Ghauri may be in full swing. And U.S. intelligence has reportedly concluded that Pakistan received a shipment of maraging steel from Russia, useful for missile production, via the North Korean Changgwang Sinyong Corporation (aka North Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation). The United States Department of State imposed sanctions against both Changgwang Sinyong Corp. and KRL for this relationship.

In return for its help as a supplier, North Korea is able to receive performance data from Nodong tests by its customers. North Korea itself has only tested the Nodong once, to a 500 km range. But most important, Pyongyang receives hard currency, meaning that its exports will continue to fuel rogue states' missile programs.


For the rest of the article:
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/missiles.html

There are many inaccuracies in the article. Using the word "import" clearly denies its credibility. Ghauri is smaller, accurate, and has more range than the No-dong.. which i believe is very inaccurate. :tup:
 
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when did i say that we have MIRV capability?
well alright forget everything...if pakistan and india decide to get the MIRV capability which of the countries would be quicker in getting one?
your post is in direct contradiction to some of the previous posts by your fellow pakistanis who say that pakistan has beter missiles but we cant post articles cus it's all a secret!
why dont you post some credible links to back your claims?

i dont want to continue arguing...but helicopters...tanks are not required for a ballistic program...lets just stick to discussing missiles here...we have other threads for tanks and helicopters...
india has supercomputing capability light years ahead of paistan....supercomputing augments the missile capability of a country in ways you cant fathom.
india has the capability to develop launch vehicles the kind of which pakistan can only hope it's scientists learn from some foreign country....i mean the GSLV is far greater in tech than any pakistani missile...
we have produced our own cryogenic engine(which is essential in developing a MIRV)...where is pakistan?
we have tested re-entry vehicles...
i mean you read one article that has nothing more than a line about your 'MIRV program' and your ego is sky-high!
i am not saying that we are developing MIRVs...but just that it would be easier for us to develop one.
your goverment is responsible for your being so mis-informed.
i hope you come'p with some good links...post one and i will post three.
 
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when did i say that we have MIRV capability?
well alright forget everything...if pakistan and india decide to get the MIRV capability which of the countries would be quicker in getting one?

With the data provided on the internet i would say India. But it could be totally opposite thinking that India still hasn't made most of its missiles nuclear capable.

your post is in direct contradiction to some of the previous posts by your fellow pakistanis who say that pakistan has beter missiles but we cant post articles cus it's all a secret!
why dont you post some credible links to back your claims?

I dont have to support or contradict anyone. When your going to QUOTE me, you will discuss with me. What kind of links do you want now? Ask RAW will ya. :D

i dont want to continue arguing...but helicopters...tanks are not required for a ballistic program...lets just stick to discussing missiles here...we have other threads for tanks and helicopters...

LOL. I think your missing the whole point. The point of the talking was that nothing can be made without cooperation. Examples are in front of you.

india has supercomputing capability light years ahead of paistan....supercomputing augments the missile capability of a country in ways you cant fathom.

Can you please link something that fairly states that "Indian has supercomputer capability light years of Pakistan". Also please let me know the exact days (24 hours) time of light years. :smokin:

india has the capability to develop launch vehicles the kind of which pakistan can only hope it's scientists learn from some foreign country....i mean the GSLV is far greater in tech than any pakistani missile..

we have produced our own cryogenic engine(which is essential in developing a MIRV)...where is pakistan?
we have tested re-entry vehicles...
i mean you read one article that has nothing more than a line about your 'MIRV program' and your ego is sky-high!
i am not saying that we are developing MIRVs...but just that it would be easier for us to develop one.
your goverment is responsible for your being so mis-informed.
i hope you come'p with some good links...post one and i will post three.

Why are you deviating the topic? Your bringing out the arguments that i care zero about. Your relating your space program with your military nuclear ballistic missile program. Although they share similarities, but they are far away from their purpose, or need for acquiring such a capability.

In the end of all, we will match everything when we want to. We did with nuclear missiles, aircrafts, tanks, subs, now frigates.. with a sheer size of 1/3 of development money. Until then you can keep asking for links and remain quiet for someone to feed you links and capability of Pakistan while the heads up there shock your intelligence agencies with Babur. :agree: Of course, that is not a discussion point, but simply an explanation that we have done better.
 
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Pakistan is far ahead of india, when it comes to ballistic missile technology. indian ballistic missiles don't even have terminal guidance, and yet the best response they could come up with is this,

"DRDO's terminal guidance claim is at times belittled by certain quarters - often anti-DRDO naysayers - who speak in terms of the superior Chinese and North Korean guidance systems and their use by Pakistan. Such comments, usually unsupported by any meaningful evidence cannot be given weight on merit, but it does put renewed emphasis on the need for DRDO to be more forthcoming about the guidance system of the Agni-II. DRDO has nothing to lose and everything to gain by explaining a bit more about the guidance technologies used for Agni-II. At stake is the credibility of the DRDO scientists who have made statements to this effect at earlier dates."

(Agni [Strategic Ballistic Missile] )

Pakistani ballistic missiles are not copies of failed north korean ballistic missiles, and allegedly chinese ballistic missiles. Pakistani ballistic missiles have nothing to do with chinese missiles, and there is no concrete evidence to suggest otherwise. in some aspects, our ballistic missiles are just as good, if not better than current chinese ballistic missiles. our cruise missiles are superior, I can say that with confidence.

let's face it, indians just can't swallow the fact that Pakistan is ahead in these things.

  • brahmos is an anti-shipping missile, basically the yakhont after it was offered for export.
  • it has limited land-attack capability, that too only comes through the help of GPS guidance.
  • india is not getting its hands on the ramjet technology, because of russia.
 
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sir the only problem that i encounter is the number of tests, if pakistan is regularly upgrading its missile programs there needs to be a lot of tests,even the ones which are inducted there should be operational tests, iam not saying that there are no tests at all but the overall number of tests of ballistic and cruise missiles by pakistan is very low, if the argument needs to be proven true.

at this point of time its difficult to compare the missiles capabilities of 2 countries just because of the number of tests,every world power tests the missiles they already posses from time to time incase of pakistan its very low in number,a missile previously successfully tested might falter in later tests so its very important.for pakistan to claim complete superiority over indian missiles they should be viewed in level grounds.

ust an example:-india successfully conducted 20 tests of the brahmos but the 21st test failed and many members here statred dubing the indian missile as a failure fine but if india had not done the 21 st test it was very successfull and there were no complaints.so there should be enough data available to compare the two ,at present i think the vaailable data is too less.

thanks.
 
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Can you please link something that fairly states that "Indian has supercomputer capability light years of Pakistan". Also please let me know the exact days (24 hours) time of light years. :smokin:
light years is to measure distance nd not tme or days...it is the amount of distance covered by light in a year i.e (3*100000000*60*60*24*365) metres.

and as far ar india's supercomputing is concerned...

1)world's fourth fastes computer by india..
EKA Indian Supercomputer by Tata Ranked Fourth Fastest Computer in the World

Boeing to certify Indian supercomputer - India PRwire

2)8 indian supercomputer's in the global top 500 list...
8 Indian supercomputers enter global top 500 list

3)distribution of supercomputers by country...
File:Puissance de calcul des 500 meilleurs supercalculateurs mondiaux en novembre 2008 par pays .png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

feel free to search on the indian supercomputing capabilities...on your own too.
 
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Why are you deviating the topic? Your bringing out the arguments that i care zero about. Your relating your space program with your military nuclear ballistic missile program. Although they share similarities, but they are far away from their purpose, or need for acquiring such a capability.
do you even know what MIRV is????
the technologies i have mentioned have direct implication on the MIRV...you cant have a MIRV(which is a vehicle) without the technologies mentioned by me in my post quoted by thee.
read my earlier posts i ahve explained how the MIRV is developed
i am a telecommunicatinos engineer and have studied related subjects...MIRV is an integrated aspect of
a)multi-trajectory launching
b)re-entry of the MIRV(vehicle)
c)multi-orbit projectile planting
now read the same post again and everything would fit.
in short your lack of exposure in civilian space capabilites would cost you dear in developing MIRV...i know yo'd say that paksitan would develop the program by hook or by crook...that would be the end of discussion cus....logically you are decades behind developing a MIRV
(i think i know what your post would sound like)
 
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In the end of all, we will match everything when we want to. We did with nuclear missiles, aircrafts, tanks, subs, now frigates.. with a sheer size of 1/3 of development money. Until then you can keep asking for links and remain quiet for someone to feed you links and capability of Pakistan while the heads up there shock your intelligence agencies with Babur. :agree: Of course, that is not a discussion point, but simply an explanation that we have done better.

BABUR?
hmmm...see i dont know about pakistan but here in India..we have a snack called Cheetos by Frito-Lay...now Cheetos comes with a free gift..that has a card from which you can pull cardboard pieces out which can be fitted one-into-the-other through grooves present in the individual pieces...there is a picture of the finished toy and you refer to it to join the pieces.An average guy with an average Iq takes roughly about 2-3 minutes to assemble the toy.
this is called reverse engineering...and it's nothing to be proud of.
 
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