India lags behind Pakistan in missiles

[paritosh]

The "indigenous" topic is discussed to death many times. There is no conclusive proof that any of the Pakistani missiles except M-11 are imported ballistic missiles from either China or North Korea. According to the CIA intelligence, there were extensive cooperation by Abdul Qadir to help North Korea make its ballistic missiles No-dong series nuclear capable. In return North Korea helped Pakistan with the ballistic missile technology of the No-dong series which was used in the Ghauri Missiles series. In 2007/08, Pakistan further upgraded (exact natures are unknown) its Ghauri III nuclear capable missile. The nuclear series of Ghauri missile by Pakistan, can no where be matched by any ballistic missile program of North Korea. As far as the Shaheen series is concerned FAS has no evidence other than make assumption based on the graphical data (Pictures) provided.

For more info read this article by Usman Ansari at DefenseNews.

the article also mentions the Nodong program of the koreans..you forgot to mention that.this very article that you posted shows how indigenous your program is.as a matter of fact...the agni series is already solid-fuel based and so is prithvis' second stage...it has been since the 90s....and you are changing 'gradually' to solid fuel capability!
you are talking of oxidizers and combustors when we are developing the cryogenic engine..your missile program is not as advanced as you think and ours is not as obsolete.
check this out

India successfully tests own cryogenic rocket engine - AOL India News

tall and funny claims you people make.

 

[EagleEyes]

the article also mentions the Nodong program of the koreans..you forgot to mention that.this very article that you posted shows how indigenous your program is.as a matter of fact...the agni series is already solid-fuel based and so is prithvis' second stage...it has been since the 90s....and you are changing 'gradually' to solid fuel capability!
you are talking of oxidizers and combustors when we are developing the cryogenic engine..your missile program is not as advanced as you think and ours is not as obsolete.
check this out

India successfully tests own cryogenic rocket engine - AOL India News

tall and funny claims you people make.

Either you cant read properly, or you haven't read it.

There isn't just one program in Pakistan. There are two main programs in Pakistan. One is Shaheen Missile Program which is Solid-fueled, and the other is Ghauri Missile Program which is Liquid-fueled. Both programs are indigenous with only little cooperation with North Korea in the Ghauri program. The cooperation only received hue and cry because of political differences over North Korea and United States crises. Otherwise it wouldn't even make it international just like your cooperation with the Russians.

Both missile programs have their advantages and disadvantages, which serves us well as we can exploit the advantages well.

As far as your comment regarding cryogenic engines are concerned, they are for your space program, and far away from being integrated into your Solid-fuel based missile program. While your at it dont confuse yourself in thinking that our scientists aren't doing anything.. Read the article it will enhance your knowledge about Pakistan missile programs, MIRV, etc..

And "the tall and funny claims" there aren't any, while you seem to be very confused looking at your post.

 

[paritosh]

Either you cant read properly, or you haven't read it.

There isn't just one program in Pakistan. There are two main programs in Pakistan. One is Shaheen Missile Program which is Solid-fueled, and the other is Ghauri Missile Program which is Liquid-fueled. Both programs are indigenous with only little cooperation with North Korea in the Ghauri program. The cooperation only received hue and cry because of political differences over North Korea and United States crises. Otherwise it wouldn't even make it international just like your cooperation with the Russians.

Both missile programs have their advantages and disadvantages, which serves us well as we can exploit the advantages well.

As far as your comment regarding cryogenic engines are concerned, they are for your space program, and far away from being integrated into your Solid-fuel based missile program. While your at it dont confuse yourself in thinking that our scientists aren't doing anything.. Read the article it will enhance your knowledge about Pakistan missile programs, MIRV, etc..

And "the tall and funny claims" there aren't any, while you seem to be very confused looking at your post.

dude
you say that the north korean-american differences caused your deals to come in the limelight....and the russians who 'allegedly' sold us their missiles have their relations with the americans been friendly?
am i confused or aree you?
you talk of MIRV capabiltiy as it's nothing...only the yanks and the ruskies have MIRV capability owing to their mature space programs...the Chinese are working on it and have a decent space program of their own to back them...when the chandrayaan mission was launched there was a concern on the transfer of tacit knowledge on payload integration assistance by the americans through the M3 and Mini-SAR on the Chandrayaan-I...which is a key requirement of a multiple trajectory MIRV launch vehicle.
as far as india is concerned on the MIRV...we indeed have the tech and we have demonstrated that...since this might appear foolish to you..and i dont want to make that sound like a foolish claim...
lets discuss the MIRV tech then...
MIRV requires 3 things lets discuss them in detail..

a)launching capabilty: india-has it through the space porgram;pakistan- has it

b)multiple payload integration: india-has launched a world record 10 satellites at a go(i've provided the link at the end);pakistan-no way near(you'd want me to believe that it's all happening in secret but that counts for nothing)

c)re-entry and payload delivery: india-launching satellites i.e placing them in precise orbits is though tougher than parying them on land at prices times...but is still not the same.so what did india do...we started working on the 'space vehicles' which have re-entry capabilities(i have the link in the end) these space vehicles have enormous potential both in civilian use and in military use(what pakistan seeks to achieve);pakistan-tall claims and a link which has nothing more than a line dedicated to the pakistani MIRV aspirations.
now it is always my effort that i be as honest as possible when i make claims...i expect you to reciprocate in the same.

here are the links ...
india launches a world record 10 satellites..
Slashdot | India Launches 10 Satellites At Once

us concerned over potential MIRV tech transfer through the chandrayaan program...
http://www.cdi.org/PDFs/IndiaMIRV.pdf

inida tests apace re-entry tech...
India Tests Technology for Space Vehicles

peace.

 

[paritosh]

and dont take personal digs...
i can read and write.

 

[Rafael]

i knew someone would post something like yours...
yeah...now my reply would be...omg cut the crap...the whole world knows how bogus your missiles are...they are fake chinese missiles..i mean fake chinese!...i dont understand why you guys are making it an issue..isnt it tooo obvious how china and north korea are helping the paksitanis.
the bottom line is pakistan has a clear edge over chile...and that is evident since chile doesnt even manufacture it's own fire-crackers...when a firecracker from chile would hit you(if they ever manage to make one)..you'd get a burn rash!and would curse the chilians not knownig that it just might have been smuggled from argentina under the guise of the chilian independence day celebrations.
so :chill :chil
there goes my most sensible post on defence.pk...
on a serious note...the earlier guy was making sense...i'd expect him to reply.

some people do have nightmares....!!!! its normal....and so are u....

something is cooking....

 

[Khajur]

I dont understand why are u guys making it an issue......the world knows how russia is helping india develop its missiles...so cut the crap.....

The bottom line is that Pakistan has a clear edge over india....and that is evident...and besides when a nuclear bomb will hit u......what difference would it make if it is indeginous pakistani project or assisted by chinese/koreans....

If Russia was helping india in Ballistic misslie program, then we didnt have to test our missiles dozens of times and still continued to have problems, to operationalize them.
Also Indias moon mission proved its advancement in rocket science beyond moronic doubts.

Now coming to pakistan,tell me why each pakistani missle tested not more than couple of times and they are declared as opertional??

No other nations can claim such level technological mastery on any evloving science where they a declare missile is ready for induaction just in couple of tests.

You ppl can repudiate indian misslie prpjects because we dont hide our failures.There are too much transparency where our media picks up slightest of lacuna in our strategic weapons.Our missle programs are almost bare naked and the whole world supposedly knows where they stand.

On there hand in case of Pakistan, i see speaking out about any deficiency in millitary matters in general is considered taboo.

Here too the original article on which the thread is based first appeared in Times of India.Most pakistani news paper quated TOI,but gleefully forgot to quote the first line that TOI column which says "With active help from China and North Korea, Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena".

Pakistan has more nos of different kinds of misslies which are operational than India.There is nothing more there to read.period.

 

[bushwhacker91]

The only Indo-Russian joint venture has been Brahmos. And we havent shied away from denying it. All others were developed indeginious. India definetly has russian cooperation in defence, but India has always maintained that it would produce missiles indeginiously as a part of Integrated guided missile Development program(IGMDP). All Indian missiles from Prithvi to Surya(ICBM) have been/are being developed by the DRDO INDEGINOUSLY.

Take a look at it yourself.

Integrated Guided Missile Development Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And another unbiased article declaiming the fact the the Ghauri program has nothing to do with North Korea.

Ghauri

The most recent development in Pakistan's ballistic missile program was the flight testing of the Ghauri (Hatf-V) missile in April 1998. The Ghauri is liquid-fueled and is Pakistan's imported version of the North Korean Nodong, itself a fancy Scud. Official Pakistani statements claim the missile has a maximum range of 1500 km carrying a 700 kg payload, but analysis by the U.S. Department of Defense of the Nodong puts the range closer to 1000 km. According to Dr. A. Q. Khan, who is credited with being the father of Pakistan's nuclear and ballistic missile programs, the Ghauri flew 1100 km in its flight-test in April, supporting the Pentagon's analysis. Press reports put the tested range as being between 700 km and 1200 km.

North Korea has been an important missile partner for Pakistan. North Korea admitted publicly in June 1998 that it is developing and exporting ballistic missiles to make money, though it did not specify to whom. The Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States , led by the Honorable Donald Rumsfeld (Rumsfeld Commission), believes that in addition to supplying the Nodong, North Korea supplied production facilities, and the technology for the missile.

Intelligence and satellite images reportedly have revealed the delivery of warhead canisters from North Korea to Pakistan's Kahuta Research Laboratories (KRL) in June 1998 and have disclosed increased activity at KRL's missile facility, suggesting that production of the Ghauri may be in full swing. And U.S. intelligence has reportedly concluded that Pakistan received a shipment of maraging steel from Russia, useful for missile production, via the North Korean Changgwang Sinyong Corporation (aka North Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation). The United States Department of State imposed sanctions against both Changgwang Sinyong Corp. and KRL for this relationship.

In return for its help as a supplier, North Korea is able to receive performance data from Nodong tests by its customers. North Korea itself has only tested the Nodong once, to a 500 km range. But most important, Pyongyang receives hard currency, meaning that its exports will continue to fuel rogue states' missile programs.


For the rest of the article:
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/missiles.html

 

[kenchabhai]

Pakistan's clandestine missile program (whether with foreign support or not) has managed to field (whether successfully or not) SRBM,IRBM, MRBM, LACM, ALCM etc. some of which are not as the article mentions operational with the armed forces of India.

Indian Armed Forces historically due to a variety of reasons have had to make do with relatively inferior tech and equipment as compared to the Pakistani Armed Forces.

Such definitely will not be the case in the future. Indian armed forces have been on the path of modernisation albeit in true desi style.

IAF is already fielding some of the most modern weapons and equipment such as Su30mki, to bolstered with addition of cbu-105wcmd, mmrca etc.
IN will be inducting P8i, aircraft carriers, Nuclear subs, SLCMs, SLBMs, Barak SAM etc.
IA is operating t-90s, tungsuka's, smerch and will be adding a lot more firepower in the coming years.

Indian Missiles are being improved and in the future will only get better. Indian armed forces operate almost all missile types whether they be indigenous development, joint collaboration or foreign purchases.

To the members that argue that Indian missiles have Russian tech print all over them should realise that if India was rebadging Russian missiles as its own, like some countries do, they wouldn't be inoperational even after so many decades of development.

 

[jawadqamar]

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Hmm, interesting...well take a look a this.

HERE IS THE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT INDIAN CLAIM
This is from fas.org..feel free to look it up.

Pakistan
1. The strategic competition with India has spurred Pakistani efforts to acquire ballistic missiles, which it claims to have done without assistance. Pakistan's missile industry includes a large solid rocket motor production complex and a ballistic missile test facility. Chinese and more recently North Korea assistance has sustained these efforts. Pakistan's missile effort evidently consists of three components:

a) The short range Hatf-1 and Hatf-2, which are apparently of Pakistani design and construction, were developed by the Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO). These missiles seem to have proven a disappointment, due probably in no small measure to their modest range, and do not appear to have entered operational service.

b) The Shaheen series of solid-propellant missiles are imports from China by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC), which is also responsible for Pakistan's plutonium bomb program. The Chinese M-11 missile was obtained from China in the early 1990s, and tested with considerable publicity in mid-1999. The longer range Shaheen-I and Shaheen-II appear to correspond to the Chinese M-9 and DF-15, respectively, and there is presently solid evidence that Pakistan has obtained either missile from Chinese.

c) More recently, the A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, which is also responsible for Pakistan's uranium bomb program, has imported and tested the North Korean Nodong missile under the name Ghauri. Imports of the longer range Taepodong missiles may also be under consideration.

Designation ------------------------------------ Foreign derivation
Hatf-1
Hatf-2 Shadoz
Shaheen Hatf-3 ? ------------------------------------ PRC M-11
Shaheen-I Hatf-4 ?------------------------------------ PRC M-9
Shaheen-II Hatf-6 ------------------------------------ PRC M-18
Ghauri Hatf-5 ------------------------------------ DPRK ND-1
Ghauri-III Abdali ------------------------------------ DPRK TD-1
Tipu ------------------------------------ DPRK TD-2
Ghaznavi ?,000

Feel free to look up the foreign derivation on google. You wouldnt be surprised to find all this missiles are Chinese.

just stop posting the links from websites that were updated light years ago that can’t even put the names right let alone any stats about capabilities and start using something called mind.I mean how hard it is to understand that Shaheen-II 17.4 mtere long,1.4 meter diameter, with Launch Weight of 25000 kg with 2500km range is totally different missile altogether when compared to the Chinese M-18 This designation may have referred to a two-stage solid-propellant missile with a range of 1,000 km and a 400 kg warhead. It is reported that this missile had a length of 12.0 m, a body diameter of 1.1 m, and a launch weight of 7,000 kg. There were two possible trial launches in Iran in 1991, over 700 and 1,000 km ranges, program was terminated in 1992.I mean how def one have to be to conclude that M-18 and shaheen-II are same when there is hell of difference between two. Same is the case for the Hatf 2A Abdali SRBM , Hatf 3 Ghaznavi SRBM , Hatf 4 Shaheen 1 MRBM

Not even a single solid fuel missile is a copy or licensed production from Chinese missiles. Pakistani ballistic missiles uses a far more advance reentry vehicle that is designed from start to deal with the antiballistic missiles through maneuvering its reentry vehicles and carry a terminal guidance system in mid 1990 on the other hand Chinese system were abe to show such system only after a complete decade in mid 2000.

Please provide a single picture of M-11 in Pakistan. You can’t provide as there exists non, do how would you think that even after 15 year plus in Pakistan no one was able to take a picture?? Simple answer is you cannot take the pictures of ghosts that only exists in dreams


Only ballistic missile that was that was manufactured by the Pakistan with active support from the foreign government was Ghauri Hatf-5 to counter Indian Agni series that was made through USA’s help when they transferred the designs of US scout space vehicle to india and provided active training to the Indian scientists and Indians copied this design to act as medium range ballistic missiles

Even in that case can you explain why each and every test of Ghauri Hatf-5 was success while that of NK and Iran were failing out in sky? Reason is simple Pakistani were more then just mere buyer to Ghauri Hatf-5 program and because of lack of comparative advance technology in NK and IRAN meant that their missiles fail regularly while same is not the case for Pakistan.

 

[paritosh]

Not even a single solid fuel missile is a copy or licensed production from Chinese missiles. Pakistani ballistic missiles uses a far more advance reentry vehicle that is designed from start to deal with the antiballistic missiles through maneuvering its reentry vehicles and carry a terminal guidance system in mid 1990 on the other hand Chinese system were abe to show such system only after a complete decade in mid 2000.

posts link bro(non wiki)
it doesnt work like this...

Even in that case can you explain why each and every test of Ghauri Hatf-5 was success while that of NK and Iran were failing out in sky? Reason is simple Pakistani were more then just mere buyer to Ghauri Hatf-5 program and because of lack of comparative advance technology in NK and IRAN meant that their missiles fail regularly while same is not the case for Pakistan.

the north korean missiles failed just as the indian missiles fail...and they corrected them and now have the capacity to develop ICBMs...it loks as though you were served missiles on a platter...
well here's one thing that can be done to prove that pakistan indeed excels when it comoes to missile development...post links of past launches and state the reason for thelaunches...eg..'this launch was done for trajectory control/testing'...'this launch was done to integrate a new guidance system'...etc
all missiles are tested in a step-by-step way...
you'd like to read this...all of your missiles are derivatives if not ready made ones...this might be an eye opener...and if you refuse to believe this article...read the references...it's fairly accurate.

NTI: Country Overviews: Pakistan: Missile Overview

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Links have been posted regarding Pakistan's work on an MIRV, and from a very highly respected source. No missiles were ''served on a platter' - it has already been pointed out to you that there were multiple organizations working on multiple series of missiles - liquid fueled at AQ Khan Labs, and solid fueled at NESCOM.

On the issue of the Shaheen II, Babur I, II and Raad, the fact remains that when they were tested, no Chinese or NK missile systems existed that were comparable to them, so the issue of 'non-indigenous' is a compete bogey.

The continued insistence of some Indians to harp on this illustrates a mindset that is so full of hate for Pakistan that it just cannot accept her superiority in a particular field.

Continuing on this lame tangent of 'imported tech' that has been thoroughly discredited and refuted will start earning people infractions and be considered flaming. Please read through the existing threads for these very arguments on Pakistan's missile program - no need to regurgitate them.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P.S: The same for discussions on India's missile program - no need to point out Russian Israeli influences - just focus on capabilities.

 

[paritosh]

Links have been posted regarding Pakistan's work on an MIRV, and from a very highly respected source. No missiles were ''served on a platter' - it has already been pointed out to you that there were multiple organizations working on multiple series of missiles - liquid fueled at AQ Khan Labs, and solid fueled at NESCOM.

On the issue of the Shaheen II, Babur I, II and Raad, the fact remains that when they were tested, no Chinese or NK missile systems existed that were comparable to them, so the issue of 'non-indigenous' is a compete bogey.

The continued insistence of some Indians to harp on this illustrates a mindset that is so full of hate for Pakistan that it just cannot accept her superiority in a particular field.

Continuing on this lame tangent of 'imported tech' that has been thoroughly discredited and refuted will start earning people infractions and be considered flaming. Please read through the existing threads for these very arguments on Pakistan's missile program - no need to regurgitate them.

MIRV requires 3 things lets discuss them in detail..

a)launching capabilty: india-has it through the space porgram;pakistan- has it

b)multiple payload integration: india-has launched a world record 10 satellites at a go(i've provided the link at the end);pakistan-no way near(you'd want me to believe that it's all happening in secret but that counts for nothing)

c)re-entry and payload delivery: india-launching satellites i.e placing them in precise orbits is though tougher than parying them on land at prices times...but is still not the same.so what did india do...we started working on the 'space vehicles' which have re-entry capabilities(i have the link in the end) these space vehicles have enormous potential both in civilian use and in military use(what pakistan seeks to achieve);pakistan-tall claims and a link which has nothing more than a line dedicated to the pakistani MIRV aspirations.
now it is always my effort that i be as honest as possible when i make claims...i expect you to reciprocate in the same.

here are the links ...
india launches a world record 10 satellites..
Slashdot | India Launches 10 Satellites At Once

us concerned over potential MIRV tech transfer through the chandrayaan program...
http://www.cdi.org/PDFs/IndiaMIRV.pdf

inida tests apace re-entry tech...
India Tests Technology for Space Vehicles

the 'respectable souces' and 'multiple links' have to be provided....or whatever you claim is just a claim.MIRV and pakistan have like a decade or two in between them.

 

[paritosh]

P.S: The same for discussions on India's missile program - no need to point out Russian Israeli influences - just focus on capabilities.

...umm...ok.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

the 'respectable souces' and 'multiple links' have to be provided....or whatever you claim is just a claim.MIRV and pakistan have like a decade or two in between them.

They have been provided - however, those sources and links are not claiming MIRV capability in Pakistan, only pointing out R&D into it. Of course we cannot claim MIRV capability until it is actually tested.

The rest of my post referred to the fact that Pakistan's missile program that resulted in the development of the missiles I mentioned was indigenous - detailed arguments over this, including comparisons with Chinese and North Korean missiles have taken place already in existing threads.

Heck, I even pointed out a discussion on BR on the origins of Shaheen II that came to the same conclusion, that there was no Chinese/NK missile comparable to the Shaheen II when it was tested.

I am not sure why every new Indian who joins this forum has to regurgitate the same old arguments and distortions - it must be a rite of passage for you guys or something...