INDIA in Serious troubles!! Kashmir unrest and worsening situation for indian muslims throughout cou

[SarthakGanguly]

In short --- What a beautiful place -- Kashmir and I can surely claim that if there is a heaven on the Earth, than it is here --- What a Mess those misguided and ignorant people have made it, been a pupet of the so called leaders, who is sitting safe in their own heaven.

'Kashmir ek jannat hain,
Aur jannat kabhi kafir ko na mili hain na milegi'

^- Logic.

 

[Joe Shearer]

https://defence.pk/threads/reality-of-kashmir-today-june-2016-truth-is-bitter.434598/

Just for the record, I've been there very recently, and am heading back there, at the invitation of a separatist group, to talk to them about the constitutional status of Kashmir, and the changes made to the constitution of Jammu & Kashmir through back door methods by idiot babus at Delhi.

 

[Arsalan]

Now don't you think that this is double standards -- Your security forces killed terrorists in FATA and Balluchistan, they are saving your nations, and when Indian soldier killing the terrorists, they are not protecting the civilions from the terrorists, rather killing the kids. Janab any one killed is the son/daughter and loveones of someones.

I have always been a beleiver of "One mans terrorist is other man's freedom fighter"
So what is the argument?
A life lost is a life lost sir.

By the way I remember one line of an Indian Army officer -- We killed due to our profession and not by our Choice.

There are threads about this very thing, who soldiers don't hate other soldiers and other things. Frankly, what i have deduced from my friends in military, they do not hate the Indian soldiers but the do hate the TTP goons. Something to do with professionalism i suppose.

When a lie is repeated for 100 times, the person starts believing it and it becomes the truth for him. Why Afghan kid pulls the trigger -- because they are fighting the Holy War, to protect the ISLAM in the Kashmir, to save the Muslim womens who are rapped by Evil Indians Soldiers, thats what's they are feed in their minds, before they come to the valley. 4 young terrorists crosses the border filled with the Snow, and the holy war gave them power to cross the long journey on foot, latter on they ended in having their feets getting dead cells, and ended in the 1st Field Millitary Hospital of 31 Sub Area and their feets had to be removed to save their precious life. I wonder what life, in Jail and without foot, even if they gets released, what a future, what a waste of life.

The first 8 words are the key, for me, this is what is being tried by India. For you it will be other way around. As i said, i wont expect nothing less from a patriotic India but you can deny what is a fact from our perspective. In fact, you may try and deny it but that wont matter to us, i hope you understand.

In short --- What a beautiful place -- Kashmir and I can surely claim that if there is a heaven on the Earth, than it is here --- What a Mess those misguided and ignorant people have made it, been a pupet of the so called leaders, who is sitting safe in their own heaven.

Again sir, who is misguided here will always remain a debate that wont have any winners. For them/us/me, the whole issue is that this beautiful place is under occupation. Again, agree to disagree as this is something we have fought wars on so do not expect that it will resolve itself. With no serious effort to do so, the problem will remain the same for some time whether we chose to accept it or not.

'Kashmir ek jannat hain,
Aur jannat kabhi kafir ko na mili hain na milegi'

^- Logic.

If he is involved in a serious sensible debate, at least do not poke him and bring him to the same level as yourself sir. Just a request.

 

[zebra7]

Just for the record, I've been there very recently, and am heading back there, at the invitation of a separatist group, to talk to them about the constitutional status of Kashmir, and the changes made to the constitution of Jammu & Kashmir through back door methods by idiot babus at Delhi.

Don't you like to share some memoir with us.

I have always been a beleiver of "One mans terrorist is other man's freedom fighter"
So what is the argument?
A life lost is a life lost sir.

You are 100 percentage right, but Hame Apke is Baat se Itifaq nahi Hai.

Any one who uses terror to achieve its objective is a terrorist. There are many ways to get something, Political, and this is the same country which achieve independence through non voilence.

There are threads about this very thing, who soldiers don't hate other soldiers and other things. Frankly, what i have deduced from my friends in military, they do not hate the Indian soldiers but the do hate the TTP goons. Something to do with professionalism i suppose.

They are right. I tell you the reality of the border. Pakistani soldiers given order by their comander to fire on indian post, they cried loudly Bhaijan Sar niche kar lo and then fire in air, to show the report that they fired 2000 rounds of fire on the indian post and vice versa. Second indian soldier asking, pakistani soldier on wireless, you have comed back from leave so did he bought the latest Bollywood CD/DVD (Bollywood movie CDs are even available before it is released in India LOLZ), and Pakistani soldier asking for a Bottle of RUM. Both of them though them acroos the border fense.

The first 8 words are the key, for me, this is what is being tried by India. For you it will be other way around. As i said, i wont expect nothing less from a patriotic India but you can deny what is a fact from our perspective. In fact, you may try and deny it but that wont matter to us, i hope you understand.

Here is a difference those 8 keywords are for the unrealistic version of the ground reality of the Kashmir which is portrayed. Many/Most of those young guys are illeterates and when Farooq Abdulla at that time present CM asked one of them, what is the difference between the Pakistani side of kashmir and Indian Kashmir, he said its more developed -- a simple ignorant answer hai na Sir Jee.

Again sir, who is misguided here will always remain a debate that wont have any winners. For them/us/me, the whole issue is that this beautiful place is under occupation. Again, agree to disagree as this is something we have fought wars on so do not expect that it will resolve itself. With no serious effort to do so, the problem will remain the same for some time whether we chose to accept it or not.

I tell you before 90's, each an every bollywood directors packs and directly comes to the Kashmir valley for the shooting, why ?? because there are so many beautiful, untouched beauty of the nature. The Military vehicle at that time though very less, the Kashmiri drivers don't give the Side to overtake them LOLZ unthinkable at present. And now due to the political wrestling between India and Pakistan and now even China, the whole region, which should be the heart of the tourism, and the fields full of apples, peaches, nuts, kesar, where on one side there is Hajratbal Dargah and on the other side on the center of the valley, the Shankracharya Temple looking the whole valley and the Dul Lake showing the Mirror of beauty of Nature.

If he is involved in a serious sensible debate, at least do not poke him and bring him to the same level as yourself sir. Just a request.

I guess he is Kashmiri Pandit.

 

[Arsalan]

You are 100 percentage right, but Hame Apke is Baat se Itifaq nahi Hai.

Any one who uses terror to achieve its objective is a terrorist. There are many ways to get something, Political, and this is the same country which achieve independence through non voilence.

Dear it depends on the definition of "terror"
If someone if merely fighting for his rights (which itself is his right) and have been forced to use offensive means to carry out that fight, many will think that it is a struggle for justice. This issue is a lot more complicated when we can think. By your definition, the 1857 movement was an act of terrorism and the base of both Pakistan and India is on terrorist activities carried our in the British rule. However, we ALL call that "independence movement". So if people name the Kashmir unrest as a movement of independence, they are right according to there perspective.

They are right. I tell you the reality of the border. Pakistani soldiers given order by their comander to fire on indian post, they cried loudly Bhaijan Sar niche kar lo and then fire in air, to show the report that they fired 2000 rounds of fire on the indian post and vice versa. Second indian soldier asking, pakistani soldier on wireless, you have comed back from leave so did he bought the latest Bollywood CD/DVD (Bollywood movie CDs are even available before it is released in India LOLZ), and Pakistani soldier asking for a Bottle of RUM. Both of them though them acroos the border fense.

May common sense prevail on BOTH sides of the border.

Here is a difference those 8 keywords are for the unrealistic version of the ground reality of the Kashmir which is portrayed. Many/Most of those young guys are illeterates and when Farooq Abdulla at that time present CM asked one of them, what is the difference between the Pakistani side of kashmir and Indian Kashmir, he said its more developed -- a simple ignorant answer hai na Sir Jee.

Dear, again, it is just your word against mine AND all the while we are not even hearing to what those people have to say about it who are the most concerned with this.

I tell you before 90's, each an every bolly wood directors packs and directly comes to the Kashmir valley for the shooting, why ?? because there are so many beautiful, untouched beauty of the nature. The Military vehicle at that time though very less, the Kashmiri drivers don't give the Side to overtake them LOLZ unthinkable at present. And now due to the political wrestling between India and Pakistan and now even China, the whole region, which should be the heart of the tourism, and the fields full of apples, peaches, nuts, kesar, where on one side there is Hajratbal Dargah and on the other side on the center of the valley, the Shankracharya Temple looking the whole valley and the Dul Lake showing the Mirror of beauty of Nature.

If you are trying to point out the beauty of the region, i am not sure any one can doubt or argue with that. The independent Kashmir is also blessed with numerous such sights, truly heaven on earth!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

'Kashmir ek jannat hain,
Aur jannat kabhi kafir ko na mili hain na milegi'

^- Logic.

None.

Dogs, Indians and kaffirs not allowed.

I have always been a beleiver of "One mans terrorist is other man's freedom fighter"
So what is the argument?
A life lost is a life lost sir.


There are threads about this very thing, who soldiers don't hate other soldiers and other things. Frankly, what i have deduced from my friends in military, they do not hate the Indian soldiers but the do hate the TTP goons. Something to do with professionalism i suppose.



The first 8 words are the key, for me, this is what is being tried by India. For you it will be other way around. As i said, i wont expect nothing less from a patriotic India but you can deny what is a fact from our perspective. In fact, you may try and deny it but that wont matter to us, i hope you understand.


Again sir, who is misguided here will always remain a debate that wont have any winners. For them/us/me, the whole issue is that this beautiful place is under occupation. Again, agree to disagree as this is something we have fought wars on so do not expect that it will resolve itself. With no serious effort to do so, the problem will remain the same for some time whether we chose to accept it or not.


If he is involved in a serious sensible debate, at least do not poke him and bring him to the same level as yourself sir. Just a request.

One of the best posts I've read for a long, long time. If you promise not to be offended, this is Niaz Sahib or Oscar level. I'm their fan, and now I'm beginning to wonder about you.

Thanks so very much. Makes up for all the muck and kiddy-cutlets that infest cyber-space.

Thanks to @Arsalan and to @zebra7 for their engaging and engrossing posts.

 

[Arsalan]

I think this part of your post answers your questions itself.

Religion has been a tool and have seldom be used for good cause when it comes to global conflicts.

As I have said, I know no kid who care for who is at government. So the question comes, why are they raising flags and hurling stones?

The answer is religion. They dont know what good governance is. They are not educated and mature enough to understand where their interest lies. They dont know what real life is behind those dark and dusty ghettos. But still they are made to fight. A fight they dont know what benefit it will bring.

But still they are fighting, they are fighting for no tangible outcomes.

When you find these symptoms, the problem lay beneath is always religion. Whether a kid in ISIS or Afghan, the problem is same. I am afraid its coming in Kashmir.

Such fighters are fueled by bigotry and not logic. They are fighting for a religious utopia, an imaginary world of their own shown to them by crooks.

They have never seen Pakistan, but they have been told how is pakistan and islamic kingdom. And beleive me they have been told wrong.

I see no fight by kids worthy of being fought. I see all dirtiest of minds employed behind, nothing less nothing more.

Sir HOW many Muslims are there in India compared to the population in the occupied Kashmir? Compare that! Perhaps you already know what i am going to say but if there is a need to explain, please do tag me. I hope you are not taking any offense from my posts, i like the way discussion is going on over here and will try to keep it that way. You just honestly compare the population for yourself, you will realize why i asked you to do so.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Don't you like to share some memoir with us.

I shall, but let things happen first.

You are 100 percentage right, but Hame Apke is Baat se Itifaq nahi Hai.

Any one who uses terror to achieve its objective is a terrorist. There are many ways to get something, Political, and this is the same country which achieve independence through non voilence.



They are right. I tell you the reality of the border. Pakistani soldiers given order by their comander to fire on indian post, they cried loudly Bhaijan Sar niche kar lo and then fire in air, to show the report that they fired 2000 rounds of fire on the indian post and vice versa. Second indian soldier asking, pakistani soldier on wireless, you have comed back from leave so did he bought the latest Bollywood CD/DVD (Bollywood movie CDs are even available before it is released in India LOLZ), and Pakistani soldier asking for a Bottle of RUM. Both of them though them acroos the border fense.



Here is a difference those 8 keywords are for the unrealistic version of the ground reality of the Kashmir which is portrayed. Many/Most of those young guys are illeterates and when Farooq Abdulla at that time present CM asked one of them, what is the difference between the Pakistani side of kashmir and Indian Kashmir, he said its more developed -- a simple ignorant answer hai na Sir Jee.



I tell you before 90's, each an every bollywood directors packs and directly comes to the Kashmir valley for the shooting, why ?? because there are so many beautiful, untouched beauty of the nature. The Military vehicle at that time though very less, the Kashmiri drivers don't give the Side to overtake them LOLZ unthinkable at present. And now due to the political wrestling between India and Pakistan and now even China, the whole region, which should be the heart of the tourism, and the fields full of apples, peaches, nuts, kesar, where on one side there is Hajratbal Dargah and on the other side on the center of the valley, the Shankracharya Temple looking the whole valley and the Dul Lake showing the Mirror of beauty of Nature.





I guess he is Kashmiri Pandit.

 

[Arsalan]

None.

Dogs, Indians and kaffirs not allowed.



One of the best posts I've read for a long, long time. If you promise not to be offended, this is Niaz Sahib or Oscar level. I'm their fan, and now I'm beginning to wonder about you.

Thanks so very much. Makes up for all the muck and kiddy-cutlets that infest cyber-space.

Thanks to @Arsalan and to @zebra7 for their engaging and engrossing posts.

Well thank you sir for the appreciation. I do feel that if we can all remain flexible about some of our views (i wont include religion in here but will like to quickly mentioned how my own religion respects other religions so that wont become a problem) we could have much more constructive discussion here on PDF and may actually get something useful and productive from all this matter.

As for the comparison, for anyone to have been a member of this forum for long enough and be privileged to have had discussions with @Oscar and @niaz , it will be a complement and a complement only. Thank you.

Plus i will surely thank @zebra7 and @-xXx- for there valuable input. While i may not agree with some of there views, i sure do respect the way they talk about them. Thank you both.

 

[ayesha.a]

Dear it depends on the definition of "terror"
If someone if merely fighting for his rights (which itself is his right) and have been forced to use offensive means to carry out that fight, many will think that it is a struggle for justice. This issue is a lot more complicated when we can think. By your definition, the 1857 movement was an act of terrorism and the base of both Pakistan and India is on terrorist activities carried our in the British rule. However, we ALL call that "independence movement". So if people name the Kashmir unrest as a movement of independence, they are right according to there perspective.

I agree that labelling it "terrorism" is misleading, and is poisoning the well of discourse. There have been acts of terrorism from Kashmiri groups (Kaluchak massacre, Qasim Nagar massacre etc), but attacking military or police forces is not terrorism. It's militancy, or insurgency.

Deliberately targeting civilians is what terrorism refers to, and if we can agree in that definition, that could take the discourse beyond the stalemate you are having with the other member - one person's terrorist being another's freedom fighter.

But to call it a freedom struggle is also misleading and inaccurate, because for one thing, Kashmiris don't lack any freedom that other Indians have. They have the same political rights. Your comparison to the mutiny of 1857 is inaccurate, because Indians did not have the same freedoms and opportunities that the British had. Indians in the Indian army could not be officers, only sepoys. (Later they allowed officers, but only upto a certain rank.) Indians had no political rights whatsoever, and certainly did not vote the British into power. Kashmiris have been exercising their franchise, in fact a lot more than their counterparts in Pakistan have been able to.

The number of points on which your comparison to 1857, or characterization as a freedom struggle, are inaccurate are many. IMO, neither you nor the other poster are fully right, it s best to stop calling it either terrorism or freedom struggle.

(To repeat, there have been real acts of terrorism many times.)

 

[livingdead]

I agree that labelling it "terrorism" is misleading, and is poisoning the well of discourse. There have been acts of terrorism from Kashmiri groups (Kaluchak massacre, Qasim Nagar massacre etc), but attacking military or police forces is not terrorism. It's militancy, or insurgency.

Deliberately targeting civilians is what terrorism refers to, and if we can agree in that definition, that could take the discourse beyond the stalemate you are having with the other member - one person's terrorist being another's freedom fighter.

But to call it a freedom struggle is also misleading and inaccurate, because for one thing, Kashmiris don't lack any freedom that other Indians have. They have the same political rights. Your comparison to the mutiny of 1857 is inaccurate, because Indians did not have the same freedoms and opportunities that the British had. Indians in the Indian army could not be officers, only sepoys. (Later they allowed officers, but only upto a certain rank.) Indians had no political rights whatsoever, and certainly did not vote the British into power. Kashmiris have been exercising their franchise, in fact a lot more than their counterparts in Pakistan have been able to.

The number of points on which your comparison to 1857, or characterization as a freedom struggle, are inaccurate are many. IMO, neither you nor the other poster are fully right, it s best to stop calling it either terrorism or freedom struggle.

(To repeat, there have been real acts of terrorism many times.)

kashmiris were called militants for most of the time.. now a days even maoists are called terrorists...

 

[zebra7]

Dear it depends on the definition of "terror"
If someone if merely fighting for his rights (which itself is his right) and have been forced to use offensive means to carry out that fight, many will think that it is a struggle for justice. This issue is a lot more complicated when we can think. By your definition, the 1857 movement was an act of terrorism and the base of both Pakistan and India is on terrorist activities carried our in the British rule. However, we ALL call that "independence movement". So if people name the Kashmir unrest as a movement of independence, they are right according to there perspective.

Sir, I cannot justify the acts such as burning of Schools, Cinema halls, public places, hospitals, telephone exchanges, TV towers, Which was done in the start so that the people remain illeterate, ignorant, and placing RDX time bombs in the middle of the crowded market as the act of the struggle for Justice or the Independence struggle.

Now you might have realized till now, that I know the real groung reality, because I have been there and spend my good share of life there, the freedom fighting is no where close to what you are predicting.

The real Freedom fighters are long laid their weapons, and now they are playing their political power game, and what is left is just the jest of making some instance, which is termed as terrorism, yes according to most of the world, and then that small instance is shown with high contrast to create an impression that Kashmir is burning.

The ground reality is that only few people is needed to raise the Pakistani or ISIS flag in the Lal Chock and hide behind the public group to show that people wants to join the Pakistan, because they knew even if they are apprehended, they will be held with the judicial procedure, and not the military way. Heck I can assure you there are several times more death in the states like U.P and Bihar than the Kashmir.

Dear, again, it is just your word against mine AND all the while we are not even hearing to what those people have to say about it who are the most concerned with this.

Here is a wake up call for you. The Kashmiri people wants independence, and not the Pakistan, but they are already Independent, getting the previlage of 370, and their own government and hell lot of budget approved from the center. What you fail to understand is that India is the country with so many languages, culture, religion, that if it starts giving independence to everyone than there would be no India left, and Unity in Diversity is our culture and Power.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree that labelling it "terrorism" is misleading, and is poisoning the well of discourse. There have been acts of terrorism from Kashmiri groups (Kaluchak massacre, Qasim Nagar massacre etc), but attacking military or police forces is not terrorism. It's militancy, or insurgency.

Deliberately targeting civilians is what terrorism refers to, and if we can agree in that definition, that could take the discourse beyond the stalemate you are having with the other member - one person's terrorist being another's freedom fighter.

But to call it a freedom struggle is also misleading and inaccurate, because for one thing, Kashmiris don't lack any freedom that other Indians have. They have the same political rights. Your comparison to the mutiny of 1857 is inaccurate, because Indians did not have the same freedoms and opportunities that the British had. Indians in the Indian army could not be officers, only sepoys. (Later they allowed officers, but only upto a certain rank.) Indians had no political rights whatsoever, and certainly did not vote the British into power. Kashmiris have been exercising their franchise, in fact a lot more than their counterparts in Pakistan have been able to.

The number of points on which your comparison to 1857, or characterization as a freedom struggle, are inaccurate are many. IMO, neither you nor the other poster are fully right, it s best to stop calling it either terrorism or freedom struggle.

(To repeat, there have been real acts of terrorism many times.)

I'm travelling from tomorrow, and don't want to get involved, but there is much I agree with, much I disagree with in your post. Sadly, I am back only on Saturday, after an urgent family conference, where my presence was demanded.

Sir, I cannot justify the acts such as burning of Schools, Cinema halls, public places, hospitals, telephone exchanges, TV towers, Which was done in the start so that the people remain illeterate, ignorant, and placing RDX time bombs in the middle of the crowded market as the act of the struggle for Justice or the Independence struggle.

Now you might have realized till now, that I know the real groung reality, because I have been there and spend my good share of life there, the freedom fighting is no where close to what you are predicting.

The real Freedom fighters are long laid their weapons, and now they are playing their political power game, and what is left is just the jest of making some instance, which is termed as terrorism, yes according to most of the world, and then that small instance is shown with high contrast to create an impression that Kashmir is burning.

The ground reality is that only few people is needed to raise the Pakistani or ISIS flag in the Lal Chock and hide behind the public group to show that people wants to join the Pakistan, because they knew even if they are apprehended, they will be held with the judicial procedure, and not the military way. Heck I can assure you there are several times more death in the states like U.P and Bihar than the Kashmir.



Here is a wake up call for you. The Kashmiri people wants independence, and not the Pakistan, but they are already Independent, getting the previlage of 372, and their own government and hell lot of budget approved from the center. What you fail to understand is that India is the country with so many languages, culture, religion, that if it starts giving independence to everyone than there would be no India left, and Unity in Diversity is our culture and Power.

I believe you mean Article 370.

 

[zebra7]

I'm travelling from tomorrow, and don't want to get involved, but there is much I agree with, much I disagree with in your post. Sadly, I am back only on Saturday, after an urgent family conference, where my presence was demanded.



I believe you mean Article 370.

That was typo, thanx for correcting it.

Looking forward to you. You know very well I am not a good intellectual like you, just trying to copy you

 

[-xXx-]

Sir HOW many Muslims are there in India compared to the population in the occupied Kashmir? Compare that! Perhaps you already know what i am going to say but if there is a need to explain, please do tag me. I hope you are not taking any offense from my posts, i like the way discussion is going on over here and will try to keep it that way. You just honestly compare the population for yourself, you will realize why i asked you to do so.

There is a difference in nature of these populations. One part because of magic number 370 and other you may not like but external. There are factors which drive nature and few sections, geographies and histories are more susceptible to extremism than others. Off course in Kashmir, they find enough material to burn. The semblance can be seen when ghetto-isation happens even in deep of India and people are cut from main stream.

I belong to Aligarh and I have seen the difference from close quarters.

We have too many muslims in world, not everyone feels like ISIS or associate with them. We need no generalization.

PS: No offence taken, none expected either.