India alone has the potential to defeat China in a war, argues Subramanian Swamy | ThinkEdu 2022

[GamoAccu]

Again, sadly, this does indicate premeditation on one side. To talk of command and structure in a mob riot, rather than a battle that soldiers fight, could evoke ridicule and condescending humour, if it were not for the deaths involved.

Right equipment? We do not send out our soldiers with barbed wire wrapped clubs.

Why do Indian soldiers always run away from PLA?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well you may think it wasn't.

Nope. Indians went into no mans land in middle. China responded and also did the same. Indians attacked a Chinese position that night in June 2020 thinking it was not well defended. Is this event impossible?

I understand that it feels necessary to repeat your point of view again and again. However, that does not alter facts, it merely underwrites your sincerity to your national narrative. If you insist that a colonel led a handful of men to attack a prepared position, and was killed, it merely indicates your loyalty.

 

[serenity]

Again, sadly, this does indicate premeditation on one side. To talk of command and structure in a mob riot, rather than a battle that soldiers fight, could evoke ridicule and condescending humour, if it were not for the deaths involved.

No you want it to be because that means India isn't as pathetic. It's more comforting for you to believe that China attacked India premeditated.

What is premeditated though could be a trap. China set a trap up for Indians. Indians came to the Chinese building construction site. Maybe China set up a trap at worst. Where China let the Indians come in thinking it's defenceless and premeditated a trap attack where they were armed and prepared for the 100+ Indians. At least 20 Indians died from exposure and due to running away from the fight. Dozens upon dozens of Indians were captured and returned with their injuries treated in some cases. Dozens of Indian INSAS rifles were captured, photographed and returned. All this was known to both sides and China showed Indian negotiators more visual evidence than released.

I accept that there could have been a trap played but definitely unlikely that PLA sent soldiers to attack over 100 well armed Indians.

Right equipment? We do not send out our soldiers with barbed wire wrapped clubs.


Could you explain that? As English is not my first language, I was unable to even comprehend this sentence. What tacit agreement are you referring to? And what is the problem with the land claims?

You guys have riot gear and metal sticks armed since March 2020 as your video showing group of Indian beating up a single PLA soldier proves.

 

[Foinikas]

He must be saying that India can defeat China in defense if China decides to attack India..... I too believe this....

If you look at Russia Ukraine war, Ukraine doesn't even have natural barrier like Himalaya to slow down the Russian advance whereas India is blessed with this Barrier.... Ukraine still giving a strong fight to Russians in spite of having very weak and small military in comparison..... still Kiev not yet fallen....

India not only enjoys Himalaya barrier with most of the sites on top in her control but also have a much larger (though outdated compared to China) military compared to Ukraine.... Imagine how bloody will be the all out border war for China if she decides to do Ukraine on India.... China is very powerful no doubt but attacking and defeating something big like India that too in Himalayan terrain is no joke..... both sides will suffer huge losses and most likely the result will be a stalemate with both sides sitting on small small chunks of each others territory....

Chinese have discipline. In their army,in their lives,in their entire culture,be it Imperial,Nationalist or Communist China, they have discipline.

Do Indians have discipline? How many millions of Indians have education?

Does India have enough weapons to arm a significant amount of the population and defend against a Chinese invasion?
I'm talking about small weapons.

If you have enough small weapons to arm millions of people in India,would the government trust these militias to protect their villages and towns or will they become gangs,small warlords or start a civil war against other religious groups?

Truth is you do have a lot of cannon fodder. But what's the point of you can't arm them and send them to the front fast enough while keeping the best units in the reserve?

 

[Joe Shearer]

India to this day is probably still inside no man's land section. Only Galwan bits, Pangong fingers, and some other stretches possibly have become buffers at China's behest.

This is neither my individual understanding, nor that of any official on the Indian side. I acknowledge that you feel compelled to adhere to the official line that the PRC has put out, but those repetitions have no value to anybody but yourselves.

During negotiations the offer from China was disengagement of PLA from no man's land in exchange for India agreeing to buffers along those areas. Some Indian camps are still within the disputed land.

Again, sadly, no.

The Chinese offers were made to treat their incursions into what was previously no-man's land as the base line, and to create buffer zones beyond that, extending well into what was considered Indian-held territory until these incidents occurred.

 

[serenity]

I understand that it feels necessary to repeat your point of view again and again. However, that does not alter facts, it merely underwrites your sincerity to your national narrative. If you insist that a colonel led a handful of men to attack a prepared position, and was killed, it merely indicates your loyalty.

Address the content of the conversation rather than sleights of personal attacks.

I think there's every possibility that the Indian colonel led over 100 Indians to attack a Chinese position but they were misled and trapped by the Chinese.

I think there's a possibility that is how it happened. A POSSIBILITY not a fact. The fact though is that China has a host of satellites and drones monitoring the area and could have seen the Indians coming from 30 minutes away (it's difficult terrain). And then sent in huge reinforcements with even more aggressive and protective weapons.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You guys are desperate to angle this as Chinese aggression. Again this is what you believe but not necessarily what is truth.

There is no desperation involved, merely a sad and depressing realisation that there will be constant and undiminished aggression from the Chinese side, at all points, in order to achieve political objectives of the CPC.

You mean from June 2020? I do not think so. You're now switching to other events where scouts get caught and returned. This happens on both sides. I'm talking about June 2020 fight. No Chinese soldiers were captured.

That is not correct.

 

[serenity]

This is neither my individual understanding, nor that of any official on the Indian side. I acknowledge that you feel compelled to adhere to the official line that the PRC has put out, but those repetitions have no value to anybody but yourselves.


Again, sadly, no.

The Chinese offers were made to treat their incursions into what was previously no-man's land as the base line, and to create buffer zones beyond that, extending well into what was considered Indian-held territory until these incidents occurred.

No my opinion is not based on PRC statement (which India officially agree with in 20 Indians killed and no challenge to China stating 5 PLA killed).

My opinion is based on evidence.

China showed you Indian captives in their multi dozens.

No none of that land was considered Indian held before clash.

It is disputed before it and still disputed now.

There is no desperation involved, merely a sad and depressing realisation that there will be constant and undiminished aggression from the Chinese side, at all points, in order to achieve political objectives of the CPC.


That is not correct.

This is indeed how you believe things and how you want things. But not necessarily how things are.

You want to believe India is some saint. It is not. Aggression is from both. Aggression is responded to with aggression. China in 2020 responded to Indian moves on this no man's land. India did not respond further. Each side got one step in and now buffers and some small temporary positions inside held by both.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well where's India's evidence that makes it look good? If it has any it would show. Why? Because it shows the footage of Indian group beating up one PLA and India keeps editing that single video so it seems like it has more lol. Pathetic.

It is, and not for the reasons that you might imagine. It merely shows how one side prepared an event, prepared to take photographic evidence of what suited its narrative, suppressing other parts of it, and executed it. That is really all that emerges from these events and their coverage.

Sorry but Klaxon claims are just claims. You want them to be true because it makes you feel good. Where is even any suggestion or hint of evidence?

I don't want them to be true, I want to know the facts. When I get fresh facts, I listen to it. It does not bother me that you are unwilling to accept anything that does not suit you or the official narrative of your country. Why should it? You are free to come to your conclusions, and I have come to my conclusions.

 

[serenity]

It is, and not for the reasons that you might imagine. It merely shows how one side prepared an event, prepared to take photographic evidence of what suited its narrative, suppressing other parts of it, and executed it. That is really all that emerges from these events and their coverage.

What? lol.

If Indians won the clash in June 2020, they would have been the ones tending to PLA injuries and taking photos. We only have Chinese photos showing Indians surrendered and captured because the Chinese side won. If Indian won we'd see Indian photos. This has nothing to do with preparation but again you go on these one path only understanding of a complex and still not perfectly clear situation.

You only pick the reasons motivations and outcomes that you like and makes India look better. At least if failing competent, make India look like the victim. Well it lost a clash that it was complicit and also at least half responsible for. There is no victim status (except the PLA soldier who exited his vehicle and attacked by a large group of Indians).

 

[Joe Shearer]

You're arguing this through twisting stuff and attacking words and meaning.

Excuse me, where has there been an agreement that all official documents put out by the PRC, by the CPC and by the PLA have to be accepted? If I believe that an account is distorted, surely I may say so? If I believe that words are being used wrongly, and meanings distorted, why should I not question those?

 

[GamoAccu]

It is, and not for the reasons that you might imagine. It merely shows how one side prepared an event, prepared to take photographic evidence of what suited its narrative, suppressing other parts of it, and executed it. That is really all that emerges from these events and their coverage.


I don't want them to be true, I want to know the facts. When I get fresh facts, I listen to it. It does not bother me that you are unwilling to accept anything that does not suit you or the official narrative of your country. Why should it? You are free to come to your conclusions, and I have come to my conclusions.

Why won't Indians acknowledge their own soldiers?

 

[serenity]

Excuse me, where has there been an agreement that all official documents put out by the PRC, by the CPC and by the PLA have to be accepted? If I believe that an account is distorted, surely I may say so? If I believe that words are being used wrongly, and meanings distorted, why should I not question those?

You don't. It is however official statement which anyone can challenge if they can prove PRC is lying. So far none. Not even a peep from Indian government or any other nation. If you think it's distorted you absolutely can think so and believe in it. Just like some believe in Earth is flat. They can believe whatever.

Again don't twist words. We're talking about the established facts and known photos and videos.

Also that wasn't the entire post from me. You choose to attack one single line and take it out of context.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What? lol.

If Indians won the clash in June 2020, they would have been the ones tending to PLA injuries and taking photos. We only have Chinese photos showing Indians surrendered and captured because the Chinese side won. If Indian won we'd see Indian photos. This has nothing to do with preparation but again you go on these one path only understanding of a complex and still not perfectly clear situation.

You see, here is the essential gulf between our positions. I do not see this as a situation to be won or lost, you do. And the entire matter was a stage-managed one, to give yourselves the comfort of believing that you won, when only you set out with a desire to win.

It has everything to do with preparation.

Even your use of the words 'won' and other battlefield phrases betrays the intentions before the event started.

I explained PLA weren't untouched. Had some out of 5 KIA due to the fighting and many injured. Indian had a few KIA and many injured. This seems realistic doesn't it?

No, not unless it was a deliberate attempt to convert an argument into a fight. The intentions are clear. Even consciously, you are unable to suppress the underlying thoughts.

You're saying PLA killed 20 Indians (at least) and this is impossible without PLA suffering 20 KIA. This is a problem with your logic and your ignoring the fact that PLA didn't kill 20 Indians but Indians ran off and died from drowning and exposure as well as KIA. The balance in numbers we don't know.

No, I am saying that one side was candid and honest, and the other side was not. I have never made the assertion you claim I made. These are what would have occurred to you.

 

[serenity]

You see, here is the essential gulf between our positions. I do not see this as a situation to be won or lost, you do. And the entire matter was a stage-managed one, to give yourselves the comfort of believing that you won, when only you set out with a desire to win.

It has everything to do with preparation.

Even your use of the words 'won' and other battlefield phrases betrays the intentions before the event started.

Actually you do. You just don't want to say that because it makes you seem petty and especially given light of the truths (as much as possible with photos).

You can believe it was all staged etc and prepared and premeditated etc. I even agreed that there is some possibility the PLA trapped Indian when Indians led by the colonel attacked a Chinese construction site they thought was only had a few guys on it. There's a chance PLA saw them coming and didn't prepare anything.

But your logic is that we see PLA photos therefore PLA premeditated. This is faulty logic because PLA has photos after fight because they wanted to document it and because the Chinese side won the fight and had the luxury of documenting it.

If Indians won the fight they would have time to take photos and document it.

I do think in order to counter your suggestion of China losing so many soldiers due to running away, we should make it clear what real evidence shows and who won.

Klaxon is just writing words. Anyone can write anything. Lots of publications wrote that Mig-21 from IAF was PAF F-16. It doesn't make it true and was later shown.