India Ahead : How will PAF counter IAF - FGFA/PAKFA ?

[Avatar]

Read again retard what I wrote I mentioned Sams not guerrilla.

How will Sams lock onto something they cannot even see ?

Isn't that the whole purpose of 5th Gen Aircraft ?

 

[aks]

Wars CAN be won by 5th gen aircrafts.

Blessed with ignorance and with limited research you are fully convinced that stealth is no "Game changer".

USAF is not stupid to have inducted only 151 F-22 raptors, which is the best aircraft in the world.

You have no clue of how effectively they can be used in a real war scenario. Your nation will be clueless about where the next strike will be until AFTER the strike. Your radars would be useless against a 5th gen fighter which would mean that you have to constantly be ready for all possibilities not only on your borders ..but also inside your territory ..which dramatically escalates the cost of waging a war.

If you can take a bus to school, will you burn your car ? That's how stupid your last statement is.

tell me how many wars USA won by its 5th gen air craft

 

[Aslan]

How will Sams lock onto something they cannot even see ?

Isn't that the whole purpose of 5th Gen Aircraft ?

Dude just forget about it. You know what its our fault you have the mightiest of every thing after all you are the next super power. Happy now move on.

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

hey an answer to possible indian fgfa threat is a new jamming system being built its a very hush hush stuff and since the russians started fgfa projects paf think tanks came up with this idea and its not the one turky is selling its a long range radar like system it does not have to pinpoint its targer and any radar may it be f22 or fgfa ll have its radar jammed only frindly fighters with anti jamming by specific encoding ll be able to fly freely giving both stealth and non stealth AC equal blind conditions ...and for the source well again my close friend and relative have confirmed (he is a lead designer in AWC kamara)it after i accuired of this problem he said we always have a counter no matter wt .pa is actually trying to create a cyber wall in the air to stop any enemy agression yes the system is complicated and ll take time but itll come out as soon as fgfa is inducted and also he said that this system ll act as a less than leathal weapon for pakistan any enemyAC in our zone ll face blindness rather than getting poped on the first sight which is not only economical but ll lessen the threat of a major international incident frm happening like the one after mumbai attacks....

 

[Windjammer]

i still remember the news flashing on BBC how karachi stock exchange crashed down when we just showed a little brinkmanship

It didn't make the slightest different to the Pakistan deployment.

the next news i heard was that how pakistani politicians and miltary were chest thumping over nuking delhi and mumbai to ash and telling how the rugged terrains of baloch will protect the pakistani population from the incoming indian nukes

No doubt they were in a better position to assess the scenario and deal with the situation.
However one also can recall India running helter skelter to camouflage the........ Taj Mahal.
I still haven't worked that one out.

 

[deckingraj]

Well as I said it is not only the AC but a host of other things, may be i was not clear in stating that. But the AC is definitely imp. Also we are arguing about the plane that just recently took its first flight, it is claimed to be a 5+ but whats the guarantee, what makes every one so sure. Wait for it to be completely inducted, and then we will see what the package holds. And as far as transparency its indias call. We dont owe them an explanation neither they do to us. If tom u guys decide to conceal all of your defense procurements and not tell any one about them. Well then again its your money throw it in the trash burn it or buy stuff with it. Why should we care. And the same rule is applicable to us as well.

Are you kidding me?? Look at the bolded part in your reply...You will think about it after we induct a 5 generation plane??? There is a saying about defence "prepare for the worst"...Here you are talking about best case scenario that FGFA might not be a 5 generation plane...

As far as transparency is concerned you missed my point...What i am saying is that being democracy all the major defence deals are out there in public domain..nothing like compulsion...India and Pak are mostly depending upon foreign imports so it is very difficult to keep defence deals under the wraps...

In other words so far we have not heard about any plans to counter FGFA...I can understand if you are suspecting India Tech for Fighter Pilots but suspecting Russian Tech would be an overstatement...Anyways i still don't have any answer apart from an attempt by SABER.. Let me reply to him...

 

[aboutimeee]

Sukhoi PAK FA is under Flight Tests, and as many as 6 Tests have been done so far.

IAF aims induction of PAK-FA by 2018 and seems consistent with the latest assessment by the Primeminister Vladimir Putin and Indian Defence Minister Mr. Antony who claimed recently that Russian and Indian Airforces shall induct the First Fifth Gen Fighters by 2016-2018 respectively.

With India already have far far superior Airforce having a superb inventory of :

• 100+ Su 30 MKI
• 50+ Mirages 2000 [ Being Upgraded as well ]
• 60 Mig 29 SMT [ By 2012 ]
• 40+ Mig 29K [ Navy ]

And which will start MMRCA Inductions in 2014-15, shall become a real Force with Fifth Generation Fighters.

Now, What makes the Fifth generation fighters very real threat for Pakistan is the fact that India has a "cold start" doctrine and with undetectable fighters in air "surgical strikes" could become a practical possibility in any future event.

So How will Pakistan Face PAK FA ?

JXX ? .
This is the best hope for Pakistan but not before 2030 which makes PAF behind IAF by atleast a decade.
Russia and US have shown that from the first flight till induction, it would take nearly a decade to mature and induct the Actual Fighter.
This means that even if China tests JXX today, it wont be ready by 2020-25.

Then China has to first equip its own Airforce and Then it will take a decade [ as clearly demonstrated by the J10 MRCA for PAF ] before PAF gets JXX.

F35 ?
This is a very distant possibility.

#1. The Price is too High and PAF simply cant afford it in numbers comparable to India which aims 250 FGFA + 250 AMCA
#2. US suspecious of Chinese Access

So, its vital for Thinkers in Pakistan to get a defence against PAK FA.. which will make IAF, incredibly superior and invincible.

2020 is a long time away... who knows by then both side might have sane leaders who would talk about peace and prosperity for the two nations rather than warmongering

Who knows around 2020 pakistan might test a fusion weapon (A thermonuclear/hydrogen bomb), to deter any misadventure from india for another 20 years.

 

[deckingraj]

hey an answer to possible indian fgfa threat is a new jamming system being built its a very hush hush stuff and since the russians started fgfa projects paf think tanks came up with this idea and its not the one turky is selling its a long range radar like system it does not have to pinpoint its targer and any radar may it be f22 or fgfa ll have its radar jammed only frindly fighters with anti jamming by specific encoding ll be able to fly freely giving both stealth and non stealth AC equal blind conditions ...and for the source well again my close friend and relative have confirmed (he is a lead designer in AWC kamara)it after i accuired of this problem he said we always have a counter no matter wt .pa is actually trying to create a cyber wall in the air to stop any enemy agression yes the system is complicated and ll take time but itll come out as soon as fgfa is inducted and also he said that this system ll act as a less than leathal weapon for pakistan any enemyAC in our zone ll face blindness rather than getting poped on the first sight which is not only economical but ll lessen the threat of a major international incident frm happening like the one after mumbai attacks....

Sir lets not get blinded py patriotism...I know there is lot of potential in South Asia and have high regards for Pakistan scientists...but Sir R&D is a very painful process because
a) You got to invest lot of time and Money
b) Results are not for granted

May be you don't have similar view points for Indian Scientists but coming up with Tejas was a great challenge(both in terms of time and money) even though that technology has been proven and tested by many countries....If you carefully analyze even after putting so much money and time Tejas is just a 4 Generation fighter... In other words Great for India but nothing big as compared to other people around.... here you are talking about Systems that has not seen there light....I would say dangerously optimistic...


Anyways good luck with that super duper hush hush stuff... However i asked the same question to Khalidali...Why you guys are just concentrating on Pakistan Air Space??? Defensive doctorine doesn't mean that you will not pound India Air-Fields, other sensitive targets...An answer to a 5 generation AC can only be another 5 Generation AC...Do you agree???

 

[deckingraj]

2020 is a long time away... who knows by then both side might have sane leaders who would talk about peace and prosperity for the two nations rather than warmongering

Who knows around 2020 pakistan might test a fusion weapon (A thermonuclear/hydrogen bomb), to deter any misadventure from india for another 20 years.

With all due respect it is just a decade....India fielded MKI way back in 1997...it is over a decade yet we have only little more than 100 flankers...You cannot bet on better relations with India...this is not how defence of a country works... As far as nukes are concerned you already have enough to deter full fledge war but that doesn't mean conventional parity can be compromised...

 

[Windjammer]

And what does that mean??? Care to elaborate on bolded part??? if that is the only ultimate way of looking at things then PAF would still be fielding Sabres...They don't so they do not buy into this notion of yours...

No doubt that better pilots on planes having similar specs(or atleast comparable) will win but is there a way to beat F-22 with a 4 generation plane??? Even a rookie pilot can bring down MKI being flown by the best pilot IAF can come up with...Now if PAF is going to field a F-22 can IAF sit back saying "Well a plane is as good as Pilot" so relax???? Don't you think you got to see the plane before one can use his/her pilot skills???? And you were saying people to be realistic????

Tell me what strategy, what plane, what measures you have to counter FGFA??? Atleast we have a programme in place to field a 5 generation plane in a decade from now...What do you have to counter it??? Only pilots will not do the job...You got to give them means to apply their skills to come up as winner...Secondly last time tow Air-Forces met was in 1971 and there are lot of controvertial theories about IAF and PAF performance...However just for the sake of it lets say PAF pilots were better trained than IAF but do you think same concept can be applied even now???

It don't need a genious to find out that PAF has lost a decade against their counterparts IAF...If we go by latest induction then we inducted first squadron of MKI(a 4.5 generation plane) in late 90's as compared to 0 squadron of JF17....With indian economy booming and India's new found morale to revive her depleting Armed Forces(IAF, IN, IA) there is hell lot of problems that you guys needs to overcome...

To conclude just relying on Pilots skills won't work...This is a war that you guys can never win unless and until you change the tide in geo-politics and revive your economy...

Here is a reality check, the IAF has been flying the original and best MIG-21 for almost 50 years, more induction, more flying hours alas man and machine harmony, on the other hand Pakistan inducted the so called cheap Chinese copy of the Russian fighter just over two decades earlier. The F-7 is supposedly equipped with an inferior Chinese made engine, however it doesn't go for me to say which service has earned the aircraft the banter of the flying coffin. The IAF has lost close to 40 Jaguars since induction without once firing in anger, similarly the IN has managed to crash over half of it's entire Harrier fleet. What's more lately, the IAF doesn't even risk flying the Mirage-2000 over the republic day parade venues, let alone any other single engine machines. Even the SU-30s have been grounded a couple of times. And in the words of then Wing Commander W*********, an IAF SU-30 Commander, that if he ever went to war, he would prefer his old stead, the Mirage-2000.
Anyways, as they say sky is the limit, good luck for the future.

 

[Parashuram1]

Sukhoi PAK FA is under Flight Tests, and as many as 6 Tests have been done so far.

IAF aims induction of PAK-FA by 2018 and seems consistent with the latest assessment by the Primeminister Vladimir Putin and Indian Defence Minister Mr. Antony who claimed recently that Russian and Indian Airforces shall induct the First Fifth Gen Fighters by 2016-2018 respectively.

With India already have far far superior Airforce having a superb inventory of :

• 100+ Su 30 MKI
• 50+ Mirages 2000 [ Being Upgraded as well ]
• 60 Mig 29 SMT [ By 2012 ]
• 40+ Mig 29K [ Navy ]

And which will start MMRCA Inductions in 2014-15, shall become a real Force with Fifth Generation Fighters.

Now, What makes the Fifth generation fighters very real threat for Pakistan is the fact that India has a "cold start" doctrine and with undetectable fighters in air "surgical strikes" could become a practical possibility in any future event.

So How will Pakistan Face PAK FA ?

JXX ? .
This is the best hope for Pakistan but not before 2030 which makes PAF behind IAF by atleast a decade.
Russia and US have shown that from the first flight till induction, it would take nearly a decade to mature and induct the Actual Fighter.
This means that even if China tests JXX today, it wont be ready by 2020-25.

Then China has to first equip its own Airforce and Then it will take a decade [ as clearly demonstrated by the J10 MRCA for PAF ] before PAF gets JXX.

F35 ?
This is a very distant possibility.

#1. The Price is too High and PAF simply cant afford it in numbers comparable to India which aims 250 FGFA + 250 AMCA
#2. US suspecious of Chinese Access

So, its vital for Thinkers in Pakistan to get a defence against PAK FA.. which will make IAF, incredibly superior and invincible.

Friend, it seems that most of you must be placing bets with each other as to how often you can try to repeat the same thread in different words and set some kind of a record. I mean seriously, hasn't this been like debated a dozen times? Such comparison threads are made only to lure flame bait and engage in word wars that destroy the sensibility of any thread in the forum.

The world is aware that there is a conventional power dis-balance between India and Pakistan as the former is a much larger economy with more landmass, more people and a greater pool of educated people with respect to population ratios. Then why parade the same thread in differently themed words?

Apparently if you were to notice, barely any Chinese members or American members here make such immature threads. There is a famous saying in English "One doesn't need to show his power if one truly has it". The world military think tanks place India rank 4 in terms of firepower, manpower and warfighting capability behind United States, Russia and China and I think that should be sufficient enough to satisfy your inner desire to be recognized.

What's more, the latter two combat jets are not even in your arsenal at the moment in their full strengths apart from the older Soviet MiG-29s and the French Mirage 2000s. I think a better and more justifiable comparison would be possible once all these 280 of your frontline Su-30 fighters, your domestic LCA fighter, your famous MMRCA contest winner and your future stealth fighter(s) programmes are successfully completed and the same has been done to Pakistani air force.

As another member of this thread, I humble request you to stop this thread where it is as it will not do any good between the already cold relations between you and Pakistani citizens. This repeated chest thumping is extremely immature, especially when the plus points and advantages of Indian military as only second to the Chinese have been accepted by world's leading think tanks.

I am only trying to cool your two sides here. Please.

 

[gambit]

tell me how many wars USA won by its 5th gen air craft

Am speechless......at the utter lack of intelligence in this 'question'.

 

[deckingraj]

Here is a reality check, the IAF has been flying the original and best MIG-21 for almost 50 years, more induction, more flying hours alas man and machine harmony, on the other hand Pakistan inducted the so called cheap Chinese copy of the Russian fighter just over two decades earlier. The F-7 is supposedly equipped with an inferior Chinese made engine, however it doesn't go for me to say which service has earned the aircraft the banter of the flying coffin. The IAF has lost close to 40 Jaguars since induction without once firing in anger, similarly the IN has managed to crash over half of it's entire Harrier fleet. What's more lately, the IAF doesn't even risk flying the Mirage-2000 over the republic day parade venues, let alone any other single engine machines. Even the SU-30s have been grounded a couple of times. And in the words of then Wing Commander W*********, an IAF SU-30 Commander, that if he ever went to war, he would prefer his old stead, the Mirage-2000.
Anyways, as they say sky is the limit, good luck for the future.

I am totally bought by post # 139 so will refrain from saying much apart from this

- Ignorance and denying won't help... Times are tough for PAF and if you are suggesting Indian Fighter Pilots are rookies then may god help your wisdom...

Anyways i am done with this thread...

 

[TechLahore]

We should then agree to disagree.

Not a huge surprise! We come to this conclusion on almost every issue of consequence! God forbid someone starts a thread on the value of Pi or something like that... we will be forced to agree!

On a serious note, I think what matters is that 2002 is living proof of the fact that India mobilized. India cranked up the volume on impending military action, we stood eye ball to eye ball for almost a year and India then had to withdraw without doing anything. Occam's razor suggests that even at that time, India had good enough reasons to believe they couldn't create the outcome they wanted and therefore were forced to back down. The conventional disparity between India and Pakistan was greater in 2002 than it is now and therefore, coming to the subject of this thread, FGFA or no FGFA there is no question that Pakistan retains the ability to counter India.

 

[TechLahore]

but how does it explain the counter PAF have/will have against India's planned future induction in the name of FGFA?? I am sure you would agree that Pakistan cannot just rely on nukes right???

Here is how:

1) In a limited conventional scenario the FGFA or any planned IAF induction cannot impact the PAF sufficiently for the PAF to be unable to do its job. This would only happen if the PAF were reduced to the point of being incapable of carrying out its operations, and that situation would not be consistent with a limited conventional scenario. You would basically be talking about FGFA/IAF aircraft destroying the PAF in the sky or on the ground... this, under no definition of the term, would be a "limited" scenario. Therefore, in case 1, the FGFA does not lead to a different outcome of the Indo-Pak engagement.

2) In a total war scenario, much before the PAF is eliminated the nuclear threshold would have been crossed. In that case, to more directly answer your question, yes, Pakistan's first use policy would come into play and the Sub-continent would be reduced to ash. FGFA or Mig-21, they would all end up as the same radioactive lumps of disfigured metal.

3) In a very limited Kargil or Siachen like scenario, air power will have such a limited role that the capabilities of the FGFA will not really come into play. So no real value here either.

The only scenario in which you can build a strong case for the FGFA having a bearing on the war in a material way would be an extended conventional conflict in which both sides never cross the nuclear threshold. However, given the doctrines in place, this will not happen. Pakistan has developed its nuclear weapons to destroy its enemies if it is threatened seriously. Not to sit idly by in case the outcome of a large scale future war is going against it.