Ilyushin 400, offers a cost effective Option for PIA

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

PIA could have bought 60 IL-96 ,had they really cared about any finances or knew how to manage funds, with capacity of 300-486 passengers depending on configuration!!
The plane was launched in 1992 ahead of boeing 777 class and is a successful plane

Cost Unit cost US$ 40-50 million, a fraction of 320 Million for Boeing's 777 ER plane
Look at how spacious the Aircraft ceiling room!!
Please note the plane has 0% record of any known major air accidents

IL-96

range: 12,000 km (6,479 nmi)
pax regular: 312
fuel burn: 11.18 l/km
Speed: 900KM/h
price: 50,000,000 (50 Million Dollars)
Freight: 13.235

777-200ER

Range: 10.730-16.870
pax regular: 370
fuel burn: 10.34l/km
Speed: 890 km/h
price: 320,000,000 (320 Million Dollars)
Freight:17.810

PIA could have bought 7, IL-96 for Price of just 1 Boeing 777 ER plane.

PIA has operational fleet of 9 Boeing 777 ER planes lets assume cost

320 Million x 9 = 2.8 Billion Dollars !!!
PIA could have bought 60 IL-96, all paid for !! planes with same amount of money instead of 9 planes that bring only losses

60 Brand new planes vs 6 owned planes and 3 leased Boeing 777 ER

Go figure!!

 

[SHAMK9]

Keep your retarded suggestions to yourself (with all due respect), this aircraft is shit. First 777 was delivered 10 years ago and has been backbone of PIA, glad that they ordered more.

 

[Edevelop]

This thing over 777 ? Are you serious ?

 

[SHAMK9]

60 Brand new planes vs 6 owned planes and 3 leased Boeing 777 ER

All of PK's 777 are now owned by PIA, the one 777-200er that was on lease was bought back in 2011.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

From a cost and ownership ratio if you look at the $ revenue prespective

Owning 60 planes vs 6-9 Boeing , its no brainer as 60 planes would have generated 15-18 Billion profit for PIA


The big question is "OWNERSHIP" of Sixty brand new planes vs just few Boeing to please Boeing etc for diplomatic reasons.


Same money , if it had been invested into Russian plane with Same capacity , the "MONEY" generated by PIA would have been in Billions !!! and Billions in Profit

Boeing is just a "Name brand" and diplomatic pressure.


Sixty Russian planes with 320-486 passenger capacity with range of 13,000 km would have flew to any destination in world , and remind you Sixty !!! Planes brand new with life time of 20-25 years !!!

VS just 6-7 planes that PIA parades around as some sort of achivement


Here is cockpit of Russian plane

People enjoying a trip on Russian plane very comfortable and lot of space !! Big plane

Russian plane was launched in 1992 , Boeing 777 came about later few years.

However , it makes no sense that a country like Pakistan short on cash would invest
2.8 Billion for 7-8 planes where it could have bought 60 (Sixty Russian) planes with comparable
range and quality

60 vs 6-7 planes , just goes to show you the corruption in PIA, PIA's whole fleet is only 28 planes !!

60 Brand new planes with life span 25 years vs 8 planes from Boeing

Just a beautiful plane from cost & quantity perspective

 

[SHAMK9]

From a cost and ownership ratio if you look at the $ revenue prespective

Owning 60 planes vs 6-9 Boeings , its no brainer as 60 planes would have generated 15-18 Billion profit for PIA

Have you taken into consideration how fuel efficient 777 is compared to this crap? Have you taken into consideration how much cargo can a 777 carry? These 400 jets would not be allowed anywhere near Europe or North America (where PK gets most of its revenue from).

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I did look at the fuel

There is "marginal gain for Boeing 777 Class and freight but insignificant", 7 Russian planes to cost of 1 Boeing give you more profit

One Trip/1 Day operation one way for all 60 planes !!!
However 60 planes @ 400 passenger capacity carry 24,000 Passengers = lets assume $500 dollar ticket = 12 Million Dollars generated for company

Worse case scenario you paid for fuel 4 Million .. you still made 8 million profit in 1 day of all your Sixty planes flying

vs 7 planes @ 400 passengers 2800 passengers= lets assume $500 dollar ticket = 1.4 Million dollars in 1 trip. Not to mention PIA now pays fuel cost on this figure !!!

So fuel efficient planes make me 1 million dollar in 1 way trip vs 12 million for Russian planes... hmm I prefer 12 million profit personally with 60 Russian planes, and I am not even considering the cargo profits for moving mail , priority mail etc on 60 planes to world wide destinations

So , what makes more money ... carrying 24,000 vs 2800 passengers capacity and then crying losses each year

With 60 Russian planes in fleet PIA could have been Emirates of South Asia however they choose to own Boeing (Costly option)



Bigger Picture had proper care been taken:

>60 Russian Planes for same money paid for Boeing 777 ER planes
>More Passengers flown
>More routes covered
>No Wet / Dry lease business
>More Pilots hired by PIA for flying planes
>More cabin crew for PIA for flying with planes
>News planes for all Routes of PIA not just few routes
>More customer satisfaction
>The 60 planes collectively would have carried more luggage / mail then 7 planes do now
>The cost to fuel would have been slightly higher but with more flights and passenger
the profits would have been MORE
> With 60 planes PIA would have dominated South Asian routes
> No government bail out would have been needed
>The interior could have added few LCD for passenger entertainment
> 60 planes would have lasted PIA till year 2035


Same 2.8 billion that were put into 7 Boeing 777 PLANES , had they been used to get Russian 60 planes.


PS: Why would Europe not allow these Jets in their airspace?

> These are brand new Russian planes
> Russia flies these , Eastern European nation fly these
> Russia's cargo service also uses the planes on routes to France, UAE, Germany , Greece , Turkey etc

Most importantly they have 0 Accidents or loss since operation

Generally there is never an issue with "Brand new planes" its normally planes that are 20-25 years old European airspace has issues with

Aviation Accidents involving Boeing 777
Boeing 777 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As of 2013, the 777 has been in eight aviation accidents and incidents,

Number 1 Reason why PIA had been banned in Europe was :

a) No timely arrival or departures
b) Old planes breaking down needing repairs new Russian planes would not have caused
issue
c) Cabin crew issues , pilots refusing to fly or other issues, lack of cabin entertainment


Summary:
> So from financial stand point , Russian 60 planes were better investment
> From safety standard , point Russian planes also turned out more superior
> Collective Passenger Carriage 60 Russian planes > Boeing 7 planes we got
> Collective Freight capacity of Russian planes > Boeing 7 planes we got
> Russian 60 planes would have also solved our Fleet Age issue & needing to lease items

 

[khail007]

The Russian planes are not shit. They are respectable machines. It depends upon how we use and maintain them. In case of Pakistan we already proved that whatever asset we got in the past, we were unable to maintain them properly; either it was railway, public transport buses or planes. First we have to learn, how to plan a cost effective and efficient system. For a recent example just refer to below link:

Metrobus: mobility and sensibility - DAWN.COM

 

[TOPGUN]

Thread starter, in all due respect bro there is nothing to compare here simply appreciate your concern and ideas however, its just not a compare body thanks.

 

[khanboy007]

If you can notice......

there is no hand baggage storage case for the middle row passengers..it does provide more head room (for a giraffe)....but where will the people having seats in the middle row store their hand baggage ???? (in their A$$) ????

there is no point of having enormous space when you dont have any space to store your hand baggage (which in todays world is pretty much basic in term's of space/storage capacity)

here is a spec list i picked up from your post

IL-96

range: 12,000 km (6,479 nmi)
pax regular: 312
fuel burn: 11.18 l/km
Speed: 900KM/h
price: 50,000,000 (50 Million Dollars)
Freight: 13.235

777-200ER

Range: 10.730-16.870
pax regular: 370
fuel burn: 10.34l/km
Speed: 890 km/h
price: 320,000,000 (320 Million Dollars)
Freight:17.810
It burns more fuel than the 777 !!!!!!!!

this would have been the worthless choice compared to the 777....

no doubt ilyushin is a great manufacturer of Russia....but sadly its not worth the buck here

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well the issue is not simply comparing the Russian alternative to what we get Boeing 777
Provided we have the Money to buy 60 Boeing 777 sure we can argue that these planes were better purchase.

The issue is considering the Limited resources we do have we could have got MORE for the money than we did get in end.

The middle row baggage question is wonderful however, its also worth noting that when you travel in a larger areas you feel more comfort , and more closeness to a room environment. The baggage areas on sides are well sufficient to store small bags

Plus other point to note is the "Leg" room available to passengers you can bring your chair back a bit relax stretch your arms up

Also in modern travel , where passengers are encouraged to carry "minimum" with them planes the storage cabins above
are not a complete necessity.

I personally have never traveled long flights with more then small bag that can be put under the front seat, this has fast become a international norm fro traveling

60 Ilyushin 96 , Planes offer a great Buck for return on investment and Profits


Our 777 (7 Planes earn us mere 1.4 Million per 1 way trip) minus fuel cost less then million. The fuel efficiency does not comes into factor because we only have few planes and these face trouble in reaching destination in time. When a plane goes under repair no replacement comes for 2 days

60 Ilyushin 96 could have earned us 12.5 Million per 1 way trip) minus fuel cost may be 8-9 Million per trip even with more slightly more fuel burn

12 Million Dollars > 1.4 Million dollars
8 Million Dollar > 0.5 Million dollar (Minus fuel cost)

In end you are carrying more passengers, More cargo , more mail , more business packages in 60 planes then you would in 7 planes (no matter how fuel efficient these 7 planes may be)


Russian plan is a serious content from Financial Stand point of view and for a company like PIA which is strapped fro cash its the ideal solution

 

[khanboy007]

The middle row baggage question is wonderful however, its also worth noting that when you travel in a larger areas you feel more comfort , and more closeness to a room environment. The baggage areas on sides are well sufficient to store small bags

Plus other point to note is the "Leg" room available to passengers you can bring your chair back a bit relax stretch your arms up

Also in modern travel , where passengers are encouraged to carry "minimum" with them planes the storage cabins above
are not a complete necessity.

I personally have never traveled long flights with more then small bag that can be put under the front seat, this has fast become a international norm fro traveling

60 Ilyushin 96 , Planes offer a great Buck for return on investment and Profits


Our 777 (7 Planes earn us mere 1.4 Million per 1 way trip) minus fuel cost less then million.

60 Ilyushin 96 could have earned us 12.5 Million per 1 way trip) minus fuel cost may be 8-9 Million per trip even with more slightly more fuel burn

why pay less and be in distress rather than wait,collect money and get a good one ?????

you really are quite frankly IGNORING the hand baggage bit to support the ilyushin....you deemed the upper storage area unnecessary !!!!! ....I never came across an aircraft with a baggage area on the side !!!!

who says to carry a minimum....you are allowed to carry 7kgs apart from the laptop and keep duty free stuff aside !!!!!!

imagine if some one bought 3 pillows weighing less than 3 kgs and keeps them in the passage (apparently the only empty area on the side)....and the aircraft is completely filled with smoke (you cant see anything) !!!!!!!! you will end up in a disaster clotting people up as you will inevitably trip over them

the leg room in a 777 is immense and more compared to this ilyushin (i can tell you from experience), my comments on the ilyushin are just on the pics.....the space is surely less than a 777

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Note: International Norm is allow minimum baggage in cabins only stuff that can fit under the seat, normally days of bringing a bit suit case into cabin are gone

Below is the calculation of fuel cost putting fuel efficiency and plane numbers in to account
Caculation of Fuel Cost / Profits on Fictional Route

Calculation of Fuel Economy on a fictional route Karachi - Boston - 11397.37 km

fuel burn: 11.18 l/km (Russian Ilyusin 96)
fuel burn: 10.34l/km (Boeing 777 ER)

How much fuel both planes would consume ?
Russian plane: 1,27,442 liters ---- >33666.6147 Gallons (US unit)
Boring 777 Er : 1,17,860 litres ---->31135.3181 Gallons (US unit)

Jet fuel price Per gallon $2.92/Gallon in USA
Reference: Jet Fuel - Daily Price - Commodity Prices - Price Charts, Data, and News - IndexMundi (Real cost)


Cost of Fuel for 1 Russian Plane = $9,803 Dollars
Cost of Fuel for 1 Boeing 777 plane = $9,217 Dollars , Boeing 777 ER saved you $586 Dollars good stuff PIA wow PIA ... YOU DID IT


HOWEVER !!!!


THE REAL DEAL !!!

Now lets Look at Profits , Minus the so called "FUEL EFFICIENCY FACTOR which PIA representatives pat their backs and boast happily about with Proud sense of accomplishment"

RUSSIAN PLANES
60 Russian Planes operating on this route would make you Money = 12,000,000. (12 Million) (Assume $500 fictional ticket)
Cost of Fuel for 60 plane = $588,180

Total Money Russian Planes could have made for PIA = $12,000,000 - $588,180 = $11,411,820 (11.5 Millions profits 1 Trip 60 planes per trip)


BOEING 777 ER (Fuel Efficient Plane Purchase)

7 planes make you profit = 1.4 Million Dollars (Note assume a $500 fictional price ticket)
Cost of fuel for 7 planes = $64,519 Dollars (1 trip )

Total Profits = 1.4 Million- $63,518= 1.33 Million Profit only

lol fuel efficiency my foot no wonder this company always makes losses !!!!

So due to incompetence if choosing a right plane instead of making 11.5 Millions per trip , PIA makes just mere 1.33 million per trip of all planes in inventory

Is that fuel efficiency really that IMPORTANT Now? or that saved $586 dollar
That decision to choose Boeing costs PIA 11.5 Million dollars per Trip

With same money Invested in Russian planes 2.8 Billion we could have got 60 planes
PIA could have earned 11.5 million per trip if they had those 60 Russian planes in inventory


Decisions like this prove there is something 'SERIOUSLY' wrong with PIA and its time to privatize the organization, so educated class can come and manage this entity



Yearly Projection of Profits 1 Year:

52 Weeks in Year

Assumption each plane makes exactly 1 Trip in week

60 Russian Planes in PIA fleet would earn you = 11.5 MILLION x 52 = $598,000,000 USD
7 Fuel Efficient Boeing 777 ER fleet would earn you = 1.4 MILLION x 52 = $52,000,000 USD

Some Cost 2.8 Billion with which PIA bought Boeing 777 ER
60 Russian Planes $598 Million Profits vs 7 Boeing 777 $52 Million Profit
(Note there is Fixed cost for salaries 10 Million Dollars for employees even so its very clear what open is best for PIA)

(Note : Fuel usage for year for 60 Russian planes would be $588,180 x 52 = 29 approx Million dollars which will have to be deducted from the total $598 Million but still $569 Million Dollar Profit. Now if PIA bought 60 Boeing 777 planes yes they would save on fuel but clearly just owning 7 planes is a loss deal vs 60 planes )

Now PIA if it had the Russian planes could pay its own salaries from $598 Million dollar Profit and also Pay Taxes.


That Boeing 777 ER purchase is not looking that great is it ?

The 60 Russian planes would have served PIA for 25 Years, its a moment to reflect and agree PIA is lost cause


PS: Note I had used a fictional price of $500 per ticket in reality charges are around $2000 / ticket on these long distance routes

 

[Menace2Society]

I agree, its like using your life savings and buying a bentley or a ferrari.

PIA should have built up with these cheap Russian plans, created a mass of profits. And then purchase the best planes and be even more profitable.

 

[razgriz19]

Well I did look at the fuel

There is "marginal gain for Boeing 777 Class and freight but insignificant", 7 Russian planes to cost of 1 Boeing give you more profit

One Trip/1 Day operation one way for all 60 planes !!!
However 60 planes @ 400 passenger capacity carry 24,000 Passengers = lets assume $500 dollar ticket = 12 Million Dollars generated for company

Worse case scenario you paid for fuel 4 Million .. you still made 8 million profit in 1 day of all your Sixty planes flying

vs 7 planes @ 400 passengers 2800 passengers= lets assume $500 dollar ticket = 1.4 Million dollars in 1 trip. Not to mention PIA now pays fuel cost on this figure !!!

So fuel efficient planes make me 1 million dollar in 1 way trip vs 12 million for Russian planes... hmm I prefer 12 million profit personally with 60 Russian planes, and I am not even considering the cargo profits for moving mail , priority mail etc on 60 planes to world wide destinations

So , what makes more money ... carrying 24,000 vs 2800 passengers capacity and then crying losses each year

With 60 Russian planes in fleet PIA could have been Emirates of South Asia however they choose to own Boeing (Costly option)



Bigger Picture had proper care been taken:

>60 Russian Planes for same money paid for Boeing 777 ER planes
>More Passengers flown
>More routes covered
>No Wet / Dry lease business
>More Pilots hired by PIA for flying planes
>More cabin crew for PIA for flying with planes
>News planes for all Routes of PIA not just few routes
>More customer satisfaction
>The 60 planes collectively would have carried more luggage / mail then 7 planes do now
>The cost to fuel would have been slightly higher but with more flights and passenger
the profits would have been MORE
> With 60 planes PIA would have dominated South Asian routes
> No government bail out would have been needed
>The interior could have added few LCD for passenger entertainment
> 60 planes would have lasted PIA till year 2035


Same 2.8 billion that were put into 7 Boeing 777 PLANES , had they been used to get Russian 60 planes.


PS: Why would Europe not allow these Jets in their airspace?

> These are brand new Russian planes
> Russia flies these , Eastern European nation fly these
> Russia's cargo service also uses the planes on routes to France, UAE, Germany , Greece , Turkey etc

Most importantly they have 0 Accidents or loss since operation

Generally there is never an issue with "Brand new planes" its normally planes that are 20-25 years old European airspace has issues with

Aviation Accidents involving Boeing 777
Boeing 777 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As of 2013, the 777 has been in eight aviation accidents and incidents,

Number 1 Reason why PIA had been banned in Europe was :

a) No timely arrival or departures
b) Old planes breaking down needing repairs new Russian planes would not have caused
issue
c) Cabin crew issues , pilots refusing to fly or other issues, lack of cabin entertainment


Summary:
> So from financial stand point , Russian 60 planes were better investment
> From safety standard , point Russian planes also turned out more superior
> Collective Passenger Carriage 60 Russian planes > Boeing 7 planes we got
> Collective Freight capacity of Russian planes > Boeing 7 planes we got
> Russian 60 planes would have also solved our Fleet Age issue & needing to lease items

Mr. Azad, owning these aircraft is not as simple as you think. Its been 20 years since this aircraft is in operation, and still they only managed to sell about 30 or so. That's a failure. Production has probably been shut down.
And safety record you say, there are more than one thousand 777 flying against 30 of these. No $hit, 777 has more accidents.
Maintenance would also be very costly, considering not many people fly this thing. If the Russians cannot provide some part on time, this bird would be grounded. On contrary, boeing is used every where in the world. Parts are abundant.
I would also like to point out that $300 million list price is just a list price. Airlines get massive discounts when purchasing from Boeing or Airbus.