i-Derby-ER new BVR missile for Tejas Mk-1A

[punit]

both M2K-Vs and Jags are for strike (DEAD-SEAD) roles not point defnce

I mean to engage F-16 52 .. M2k5 are the ideal candidates . Greece are doing it for Turkish F16s even when they have their own F16s.

 

[Omega007]

Bhai what's the performance of EL-2032 radar w.r.t. APG-68 Synthetic Aperture Radar of the F-16 Blk-52??

The maximum detection range of APG 68V9 for 5 square meter targets in look up mode is widely believed to be around 90-100 km,the estimated values of the 2032 is not much different,but I've heard that the 2032 has better resolution for GMTI mode,which of course I can not confirm atm. So,in terms of radar capabilities,against air threats at least,both systems are quite evenly matched,as per stated information.
But I heard that 2032 is temporary measure,lets see what future has reserved for us.

 

[silent hawk]

in times of WAR pre concived roles dont realli matter what matters is capability LCA was always a point defnce fighter

but with current cpabilities it can be a very good point defnce and limited offence roles whats wrong in having extra backup or say plan B

lets not debate on fancies and futiure plans

lets remain on facts ... OK

Negated yourself again

An advice as an elder (joined much earlier) - use less emotes.

 

[GURU DUTT]

The maximum detection range of APG 68V9 for 5 square meter targets in look up mode is widely believed to be around 90-100 km,the estimated values of the 2032 is not much different,but I've heard that the 2032 has better resolution for GMTI mode,which of course I can not confirm atm. So,in terms of radar capabilities,against air threats at least,both systems are quite evenly matched,as per stated information.
But I heard that 2032 is temporary measure,lets see what future has reserved for us.

the APG68V9 on PAFs F-16 Block52s are sevearlli bugged and americans have many ristrictions on them as they dont want that technology to get into chinese hands (on internet you can find many articles suggesting before every sortie new source codes are loaded in PAF F-16 by american experts present on air bases where PAFs block 52s are kept.... some say now pakistani experts are also given permission for the same)

as for LCAs EL-2032 there are no such ristrictions for IAF nor are there any such restrictions on any other fighter aircraft of IAF and yes EL-2032 is a stop gap arangement indian defnce minister wants AESA on all LCAs desi AESA UTTAM is still in process of trials and testing on LCA-IP but will take time till then EL-2052 is now offerred by israelies and IAF seems tio be very anthosiastic about it .... EL-2052 will increase LCA capacity by almost 50% if not more ... my personal opinion i may be wrong

Negated yourself again

An advice as an elder (joined much earlier) - use less emotes.

so that is the best you can say after all the links and facts i showed you

what is that jealousy , despartaion or mixture of both

look wiseguy the thread is about LCA and its new BVR the I Derby ER lets keep it that way ... OK

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Both LCA (E 2032) or JF17 (klj V2 rumoured) LD/SD range is at max around 55 km for a 3.2 m2 rcs. so a double of this in a EW inferior suite laden aircraft or no external pod based jammer based bird detection is 110 kms approx (double of LD/SD). On top fitting it with a BVR missile and both sides claiming awesome 100km+ range is laughable. Especially because BVR missiles itself at low altitude and minimum range of engagements seems to be always in and around 20s of kms.

Only prudent boarders who understand the true aspect of BVR combat will know that Air forces which has a much higher powered radar capable of operating and having LD/SD range of closer to 100kms enabling it to detect a bird with normal detection range of 180-200 km without any jamming and perhaps using some other medium externally like using Awacs/Mini awacs to locate the target say at longer range of BVR (around 90-100km or more) can actually use the true aspect of BVR LR AAMs

For the present capabilities of both JF 17s and LCA tejas, a BVR Missile (by definition of combat range >37km) upto a range of 60-80km is more than sufficient. Anything more is a pure wastage. Simply bcz these engagements wont take a such altitudes that true range potential of BVR missile will be ever used. Secondly since birds of today uses Jammers/EW suites etc in tandem combination, these birds dont have enough powerful radars and tech to detect on their own such birds at very long distance say around 110 kms unless the data is supplied by awacs or mini awacs ( a role which is fulfilled easily bu MKI but PAF has no such thing n their arsenal)

For LCA existing MICA and Derby is more than enough. Astra Mk1 and Mk2 is also more than capability fitment.

Derby ER is best suited at present for MKIs and other birds.

The day LCA has a radar with LD/SD of around 90km-100km Derby ER suits it awesomely then. Same for JF 17s.

The only plus point for JF17s BVR combat via Awacs is since Su30 MKI has a bigger RCS, they can safely engage at around 100kms based on the feed of Awacs and based on doubling of LD/SD logic and assuming MKI carries nothing to jam radar detection trials via a sophisticated externally mounted pods. Due to already bigger RCS, it cannot escape all AWACs thus, it does provide a chance via JF17-Awacs combo BVR mode.

FOr LCA, Derby ER is definitely an overkill.. Unless Israel gives us better radars then 2032 or India develops its own.

 

[silent hawk]

so that is the best you can say after all the links and facts i showed you

what is that jealousy , despartaion or mixture of both

look wiseguy the thread is about LCA and its new BVR the I Derby ER lets keep it that way ... OK

Sensing anger now so best to extradite - thread going in circles anyway

 

[GR!FF!N]

but @PARIKRAMA

These long range bvr missiles increase the "No Escape Zone" further.so,it has some merit.Plus,I Derby is for Tejas 1A,and no country releases true spec of a rader.so it is safe to assume that while integrated with Tejas,they surely find some proper reason.

by the way,from where you find these figures?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Sensing anger now so best to extradite - thread going in circles anyway

from where did anger came

or since you have no answer to the links i gave about LCA & I Derby ER you are trying to scuttle the facts

 

[cerberus]

Never denied the stats
It will come under the 4th gen fighters and will give a tough competition to vipers when backed by awacs

But it cant go for an offensive due to its range...
Tejas will be best bird in the light category for point defence and interception

Why is than ferry range of LCA without IFR is 1700 km with 500Km with radius of Action

 

[nik22]

Not really Teja will remain a 3rd generation aircraft with fourth generation avionics and armament - similar to JF-17

It would be MKI vs F-16 Block-52 in 4th gen.

Primary difference would be due to training and tactics.

Can you please elaborate BOLD part? why do you put Tejas and JF17 in third gen?

from where did anger came

or since you have no answer to the links i gave about LCA & I Derby ER you are trying to scuttle the facts

Guru, frankly man, less emote please
Not when other person is not trolling.

 

[silent poison]

No love for the Astra??

Under development ek baar Su-30MKI se "REAL" Wala test hone do ... Fir we will show love and love only ... Tb tk enjoy the jet which was incompetent till 2mrw .

 

[cerberus]

Links or details please. According to my info the radar has a large doppler notch and poor sub clutter visibility which limits engagements in the look down shoot down configuration.

Zhuk Me of Mig-29upg is a Phased Array Radar ( has better detection range against 5m2 target 120 Km against Pulse Doppler of F-16

 

[45'22']

Both LCA (E 2032) or JF17 (klj V2 rumoured) LD/SD range is at max around 55 km for a 3.2 m2 rcs. so a double of this in a EW inferior suite laden aircraft or no external pod based jammer based bird detection is 110 kms approx (double of LD/SD). On top fitting it with a BVR missile and both sides claiming awesome 100km+ range is laughable. Especially because BVR missiles itself at low altitude and minimum range of engagements seems to be always in and around 20s of kms.

Only prudent boarders who understand the true aspect of BVR combat will know that Air forces which has a much higher powered radar capable of operating and having LD/SD range of closer to 100kms enabling it to detect a bird with normal detection range of 180-200 km without any jamming and perhaps using some other medium externally like using Awacs/Mini awacs to locate the target say at longer range of BVR (around 90-100km or more) can actually use the true aspect of BVR LR AAMs

For the present capabilities of both JF 17s and LCA tejas, a BVR Missile (by definition of combat range >37km) upto a range of 60-80km is more than sufficient. Anything more is a pure wastage. Simply bcz these engagements wont take a such altitudes that true range potential of BVR missile will be ever used. Secondly since birds of today uses Jammers/EW suites etc in tandem combination, these birds dont have enough powerful radars and tech to detect on their own such birds at very long distance say around 110 kms unless the data is supplied by awacs or mini awacs ( a role which is fulfilled easily bu MKI but PAF has no such thing n their arsenal)

For LCA existing MICA and Derby is more than enough. Astra Mk1 and Mk2 is also more than capability fitment.

Derby ER is best suited at present for MKIs and other birds.

The day LCA has a radar with LD/SD of around 90km-100km Derby ER suits it awesomely then. Same for JF 17s.

The only plus point for JF17s BVR combat via Awacs is since Su30 MKI has a bigger RCS, they can safely engage at around 100kms based on the feed of Awacs and based on doubling of LD/SD logic and assuming MKI carries nothing to jam radar detection trials via a sophisticated externally mounted pods. Due to already bigger RCS, it cannot escape all AWACs thus, it does provide a chance via JF17-Awacs combo BVR mode.

FOr LCA, Derby ER is definitely an overkill.. Unless Israel gives us better radars then 2032 or India develops its own.

If tejas is backed by awacs then cant it fire a bvr aam at a bird located say 100km away?

 

[cerberus]

Both LCA (E 2032) or JF17 (klj V2 rumoured) LD/SD range is at max around 55 km for a 3.2 m2 rcs. so a double of this in a EW inferior suite laden aircraft or no external pod based jammer based bird detection is 110 kms approx (double of LD/SD). On top fitting it with a BVR missile and both sides claiming awesome 100km+ range is laughable. Especially because BVR missiles itself at low altitude and minimum range of engagements seems to be always in and around 20s of kms.

Only prudent boarders who understand the true aspect of BVR combat will know that Air forces which has a much higher powered radar capable of operating and having LD/SD range of closer to 100kms enabling it to detect a bird with normal detection range of 180-200 km without any jamming and perhaps using some other medium externally like using Awacs/Mini awacs to locate the target say at longer range of BVR (around 90-100km or more) can actually use the true aspect of BVR LR AAMs

For the present capabilities of both JF 17s and LCA tejas, a BVR Missile (by definition of combat range >37km) upto a range of 60-80km is more than sufficient. Anything more is a pure wastage. Simply bcz these engagements wont take a such altitudes that true range potential of BVR missile will be ever used. Secondly since birds of today uses Jammers/EW suites etc in tandem combination, these birds dont have enough powerful radars and tech to detect on their own such birds at very long distance say around 110 kms unless the data is supplied by awacs or mini awacs ( a role which is fulfilled easily bu MKI but PAF has no such thing n their arsenal)

For LCA existing MICA and Derby is more than enough. Astra Mk1 and Mk2 is also more than capability fitment.

Derby ER is best suited at present for MKIs and other birds.

The day LCA has a radar with LD/SD of around 90km-100km Derby ER suits it awesomely then. Same for JF 17s.

The only plus point for JF17s BVR combat via Awacs is since Su30 MKI has a bigger RCS, they can safely engage at around 100kms based on the feed of Awacs and based on doubling of LD/SD logic and assuming MKI carries nothing to jam radar detection trials via a sophisticated externally mounted pods. Due to already bigger RCS, it cannot escape all AWACs thus, it does provide a chance via JF17-Awacs combo BVR mode.

FOr LCA, Derby ER is definitely an overkill.. Unless Israel gives us better radars then 2032 or India develops its own.

Let me tell you Fact that the Most Longest BVR Kill ever Made is not Beyond 60 Km.So Lets not Talk about 100 Km Exaggerated Range of BVRs this all Marketing Gimmicks


Generally Engineers and Scientist working on these Projects are Better Educated About the Situation than You & Me

 

[PARIKRAMA]

but @PARIKRAMA

These long range bvr missiles increase the "No Escape Zone" further.so,it has some merit.Plus,I Derby is for Tejas 1A,and no country releases true spec of a rader.so it is safe to assume that while integrated with Tejas,they surely find some proper reason.

by the way,from where you find these figures?

You are correct when you say the No escape Zone envelope or NEZ increases but is the increase so substantial that a light class fighter like Tejas/JF17 can actually use the best capability of such a LR BVR missile really? I presume not.
Lets give a classic example

Much more important than max range is the size of the "No Escape" zone of each missile, which is pretty classified. A missile fired at maximum range against a maneuvering target isn't going to have enough energy left to chase it.
In that sense, Derby ER is of course having superior NEZ versus say Derby Missile. But, whats the use of having a higher NEZ if we dont have a capability standalone to detect the hostile first.

Lets say 4 LCAs flying in Tandem versus 3 LCA and 1 Su30 MKI. Of course MKI working as Mini Awacs will feed LCAs and the use of Derby ER is a certified success with higher NEZ.

Now since LCA is a point defence, i see more probability of first case of 4 LCA's approaching. So now with present radar range limitations, even with a superior NEZ of Derby ER, we are starting on a back foot.

BUT

With the newer missile the higher energy at longer ranges (thus better NEZ) will work in its favour inspite of this limitation. meaning even a late lock on and the hostile disengaging and turning tail, the chances of it still homing onto its target via its seeker and due to better pk, the probability of hit and kill is of course superior

WHILE
A point to note is whats the altitude of enagegment between LCAs and the hostile bird

Say consider another few examples Astra missile, AIM 120D and Meteor
Astra Mk1 missile which has a maximum reach of 80 km in a head-on collision course or 20 km while chasing an enemy aircraft. However, these parameters change dramatically depending on the height at which the air battle is being fought.

At lower altitudes the range is shorter because of air resistance and longer at higher altitudes.

Hence, the Astra has demonstrated a reach of up to 110 km when fired at an height of 15 km and 21 km at sea level. The improved Mark II version will have a reach of 150 km in frontal attack and 35 km in “tail chase” configuration. Again these are suspected figures as you rightly said no body publishes true specs.

If we consider say AIM 120D versus meteor, AIM-120D uses classic fuel+oxygen combustion mix, and does not rely on air flow from outside. In fact, it uses the same engine as AIM-120C, with improvements being mainly in electronics. However, it has been reported that engine malfunctions in cold environments – exactly where it is most likely to be used.

Meteor is a ramjet BVR AAM. As such, it does not carry onboard oxygen, but rather uses oxygen from surrounding air, allowing it to hold more fuel. Result is better acceleration, top speed, and range for a given missile size.

While Meteor may not have as large maximum range as AIM-120D (only figure I have for Meteor is “more than 100 km”, with 100 km being “optimal range”, versus public figure of 150+ km for AIM-120D), it is faster, and thus more deadly at any range it can reach. (implying it carries better pk or energy at longer range)

This is important, as BVR missiles are never fired at maximum range due to meager Pk against fighter aircraft. However, range varies on altitude, with best range for both missile types being achieved in high-altitude rare-atmosphere conditions, where maneuverability is almost nonexistent; at sea level, range is not much more than visual. Velocity loss after burn-out also varies with altitude, with 25% of current velocity being lost every 150 s at 24 km, 25 s at 12 km and 5 s at sea level. (air resistance increases so causes rapid loss)

Range can be reduced even further if enemy uses jammers. Thus, large NEZ (no-escape zone) is far more important. (To explain terminology here, NEZ is NOT a zone where a hit is guaranteed; rather, it is a zone where enemy aircraft cannot outrun missile, waiting for it to run out of fuel, but rather has to outturn it). Higher speed allows it to reduce time to target, and thus opponent’s reaction time, as well as to retain energy for longer after engine has burned out.

However, both missiles are BVR, making their actual value questionable. In fact, jamming and IFF issues mean that BVR missiles are far more likely to be used as a WVR weapon than in their intended purpose.

BTW there is a claim that nothing can beat the MBDA meteor, with NEZ more than 3 time of AIM-120 implying what i explained above.


BTW having a better NEZ will also means more cost of the weapons.. Implying it hits budgets too !! Thus Meteor is uber costly versus say 120D or Astra Mk1/Mk2. In that sense Derby ER will be higher in cost versus derby..

Oh i picked figures from this thread which i posted for radar ranges
Despite Flaws, India to Induct Tejas Mark-1A Fighter | Page 6

File address is attached. The source was having a very high credibility among the naval folks who used it a lot to simulate war games and design strategies of engagement.