How Turkey got LUCKY with the F-35?

[Pax Ottomana]

US sanctioning sovereign nations "for developing nukes" while it has the world's 2nd largest stockpile and the highest number of nuclear tests on the planet is laughable.

 

[XTQ1999]

Turkey is struggling to develop turboprop engine for its UAVs and you are here making fun of US for having problems with the most powerful jet engine, if you think developments in aviation come without problems, then you are just delusional. Here is Russia with its Su-57

The fact is, F-35 is the most advanced jet fighter ever developed, in some aspects such as carrier and VTOL version, it doesn't even have any competitors. Turkish Navy LHDs with F-35Bs, would turn Turkish Navy into the most powerful force in the Mediterranean, but yes keep up with your stupidity. Also Canada didn't cancel F-35 deal because it didn't want F-35, it cancelled F-35 deal due to politics between American Boeing and Canadian Bombardier, do some research before you spout out nonsense.

 

[MKALE1]

Turkey is struggling to develop turboprop engine for its UAVs and you are here making fun of US for having problems with the most powerful jet engine, if you think developments in aviation come without problems, then you are just delusional. Here is Russia with its Su-57

View attachment 623671

The fact is, F-35 is the most advanced jet fighter ever developed, in some aspects such as carrier and VTOL version, it doesn't even have any competitors. Turkish Navy LHDs with F-35Bs, would turn Turkish Navy into the most powerful force in the Mediterranean, but yes keep up with your stupidity. Also Canada didn't cancel F-35 deal because it didn't want F-35, it cancelled F-35 deal due to politics between American Boeing and Canadian Bombardier, do some research before you spout out nonsense.

I don't think it's your ability to measure someone else's stupidity. The F35 is not the best fighter for us because it would not be our control either. Who's stupid now? Mind your own bussiness and work your mind to save Karabakh.

 

[XTQ1999]

I don't think it's your ability to measure someone else's stupidity. The F35 is not the best fighter for us because it would not be our control either. Who's stupid now? Mind your own bussiness and work your mind to save Karabakh.

you are

nothing you buy from another country will be in your control, however you are decades away from developing your own fighter. Even that aircraft will have a lot of Western components.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Turkey is struggling to develop turboprop engine for its UAVs and you are here making fun of US for having problems with the most powerful jet engine, if you think developments in aviation come without problems, then you are just delusional. Here is Russia with its Su-57

View attachment 623671

The fact is, F-35 is the most advanced jet fighter ever developed, in some aspects such as carrier and VTOL version, it doesn't even have any competitors. Turkish Navy LHDs with F-35Bs, would turn Turkish Navy into the most powerful force in the Mediterranean, but yes keep up with your stupidity. Also Canada didn't cancel F-35 deal because it didn't want F-35, it cancelled F-35 deal due to politics between American Boeing and Canadian Bombardier, do some research before you spout out nonsense.

What a load of shit. Put down the Lockheed marketing catalog and LISTEN. F-35 is crap and even Americans themselves are saying it. Turkey is struggling to develop an engine for its UAVs because it doesn't have the resources or the behemoth defense budget of the US. That has NOTHING to do with the F-35 being a flying lemon. If Turkey had the same industrial resources as the US, and poured as much money into the TF-X as the US has wasted on the F-35 for as long as they've done it, then needless to say the TF-X would be the "most advanced fighter in the world". But I digress.

You may be hopelessly naive and gullible and ready to gulp up every piece of bullshit the US propaganda machine pukes out, but I'm not. Believe whatever the fvck you want to believe, hell, even grab a sexy picture of an F-35 and some vaseline and do some lone rangering for all I care, but don't try and dish out any of your nonsensical Lockheed talking points as facts.

 

[XTQ1999]

What a load of shit. Put down the Lockheed marketing catalog and LISTEN. F-35 is crap and even Americans themselves are saying it. Turkey is struggling to develop an engine for its UAVs because it doesn't have the resources or the behemoth defense budget of the US. That has NOTHING to do with the F-35 being a flying lemon. If Turkey had the same industrial resources as the US, and poured as much money into the TF-X as the US has wasted on the F-35 for as long as they've done it, then needless to say the TF-X would be the "most advanced fighter in the world". But I digress.

You may be hopelessly naive and gullible and ready to gulp up every piece of bullshit the US propaganda machine pukes out, but I'm not. Believe whatever the fvck you want to believe, hell, even grab a sexy picture of an F-35 and some vaseline and do some lone rangering for all I care, but don't try and dish out any of your nonsensical Lockheed talking points as facts.

Just because you pour money doesn't mean you suddenly gain knowledge of aviation industry while currently struggling to build turboprop engines powerful enough for UAVs.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

@MKALE1 @MMM-E @Vord

https://t.co/oP3GRhwUPW?amp=1

Please click the link and read the posts of HDS and anafor2016. This is the deal that you guys try to ignore. For ex.; modernising F-4s to F-4 2020 level and buying popeye missile from Israel gave us a new perspective which resulted into the SOM missile, Özgür modernisation of F-16s(and the subsystems for it) and many more new technologies. We catched up with the 21st century thanks to that deal. The airforce wanted to catch the new era and gain experience for the TF-X by buying F-35s yet people like you guys think they know better than the airforce.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

@MKALE1 @MMM-E @Vord

https://t.co/oP3GRhwUPW?amp=1

Please click the link and read the posts of HDS and anafor2016. This is the deal that you guys try to ignore. For ex.; modernising F-4s to F-4 2020 level and buying popeye missile from Israel gave us a new perspective which resulted into the SOM missile, Özgür modernisation of F-16s(and the subsystems for it) and many more new technologies. We catched up with the 21st century thanks to that deal. The airforce wanted to catch the new era and gain experience for the TF-X by buying F-35s yet people like you guys think they know better than the airforce.

What does this have to do with the thread and the F-35 being a lemon?

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

Dostum gönderdiğini okudum, 1-4 e bizim yapamayacağımız şeyler değil bir Truva atıyla bunlara sahip olacağımıza biraz daha sürsün kendi yaptığımız uçağı kullanalım. 5.durum ise bizim zaten isteyeceğimiz birşey değil. NATO bizim dostumuz değil, birkac ülke hariç bizi yoketmek isteyen ülkeler topluluğu.

At least you read it instead of acting like a child like him. Thank you. But back to the point, you can't just gain experience by pouring money into it. We need experince for the TF-X and TuAF was planning to have that experience with the F-35. Gaining new technologies and new weapons means gaining new perspectives that will ersult into more advanced domestic weapons.

 

[Tumba]

Rejecting F-35 which included some manufacturing also against a passive air defence system S-400 was a very very naive mistake Turkey Govt did.
A passive air defence against an active stealth air offence system is a lose lose scenario.
Turkey might have pushed modernisation of its Air Force by a decade at least or two.

India is also getting S-400 but will it be as good as an American stealth fighter that’s a straight no. S-400 will surely provide India good defence against Chinese non stealth and Pak fighters but once stealth comes into play it’s of no use and as Insee Turkey has to deal with Israeli and Greek stealth fighters so S-400 was a political statement which backfired for Turkey

 

[cabatli_53]

I understand the points of some members regarding F-35 but all accusations have a natural connection with arrogant policies of US, not about tech. In fact, If we put politic cards out of the subject, I believe Majority of members will approve that US is the most advanced nation in aviation technology and F-35 is the most advanced and matured 5th generation stealth fighter jet of the World although It has some minor problems that is being fixed in further blocks. No country can come close to the level where US is locating at present. Be it in turbofan tech, radar and stealth fuselage/coating, avionics and self protection systems. In this regard, Russia is nowhere to have a saying in aviation technology If the matter is US. They could not even develop a reliable drone today, while they lack behind in electro-optic, active electronically scanned array modules and semi-conductors technologies. Besides, It is not a secret new high tech toys like F-35, S-400, drones, satellites are loyal to their manufacturers so If you rely on foreign technology to meet striking/defensive requirements of your armed forces, You should know/consider this risk. I mean S-400 is not an angel while describing F-35 a devil inside TurAF. There won’t be a future like S-400 shot down a Russian Su-35 or F-35 shot down US F-22 so what we should do is to gain knowledge/tech to develop our aviation infrastructure to develop/produce our own competible fighter jets so We should consider the benefits of our industry to select the best programs that will be benefical for our aviation industry (design engineering, manufacturing process, composite materials, titanium/nickel alloy handling, electronic subcomponent productions, stealth tech, offsets, experiences...etc). Pouring money into aviation programs won’t guarantee to get success so you need experience and qualified personnal not to invent the wheel again. In this regard, F-35 provides huge benefits worth more than 8-10 billion $ to more than 10-12 institutes but S-400 was a government to government direct procurement project that was selected with purly considering politic requirements instead of industrial benefits so S-400 offers nothing to our industry. In additions, It is a big question whether It can provide capabilities that is written in its brochure so I believe government should re-check the F-35/S-400 policy to care about benefits of our industry and It seems they started giving some signals by not activating S-400 batteries.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

I understand the points of some members regarding F-35 but all accusations have a natural connection with arrogant policies of US, not about tech. In fact, If we put politic cards out of the subject, I believe Majority of members will approve that US is the most advanced nation in aviation technology and F-35 is the most advanced and matured 5th generation stealth fighter jet of the World although It has some minor problems that is being fixed in further blocks. No country can come close to the level where US is locating at present. Be it in turbofan tech, radar and stealth fuselage/coating, avionics and self protection systems. In this regard, Russia is nowhere to have a saying in aviation technology If the matter is US. They could not even develop a reliable drone today, while they lack behind in electro-optic, active electrocally scanned array modules and semi-conductors technologies. Besides, It is not a secret new high tech toys like F-35, S-400, drones, satellites are loyal to their manufacturers so If you rely on foreign technology to meet striking/defensive requirements of your armed forces, You should know/consider this risk. I mean S-400 is not an angel while describing F-35 a devil inside TurAF. There won’t be a future like S-400 shot down a Russian Su-35 or F-35 shot down US F-22 so what we should do is to gain knowledge/tech to develop our aviation infrastructure to develop/produce our own competible fighter jets so We should consider the benefits of our industry to select the best programs that will be benefical for our aviation industry (design engineering, manufacturing process, composite materials, titanium/nickel alloy handling, electronic subcomponent productions, stealth tech, offsets, experiences...etc). In this regard, F-35 provides huge benefits worth more than 8-10 billion $ to more than 10-12 institutes but S-400 was a government to government direct procurement project that was selected with purly considering politic requirements instead of industrial benefits so S-400 offers nothing to our industry. In additions, It is a big question whether It can provide capabilities that is written in its brochure so I believe government should re-check the F-35/S-400 policy to care about benefits of our industry and It seems they started giving some signals by not activating S-400 batteries.

The problem is that until a year ago, they were saying that they would give our F-35s if we cancelled the S-400 deal; but now, they are saying that they would only be okay with selling us Patriots instead of giving F-35s. We missed our chance. Maybe this statement was for political purposes, who knows? But one thing is sure and it is the fact that we missed our chance. Even Greece plans to order 20-40 F-35s by 2024. This is the thing I am angry about; think about it, why did Israel rushed to buy F-35s and did not wait like we did? F-35 was a major weapon that US only gave to her closest and best allies, but even if we get our F-35s by 2025; it won't be a major advantage for its owner country, because already every NATO country will be using them by that time. We LOST BIG TIME with the S-400 deal, we lost the industrial gains worth of tens of billions dollars and we lost the chance to gain experience for the TF-X/MMU with the F-35s. Hell we didn't even needed an ADS like the S-400, we just needed a system like the Aster 30, Patriot and S-300PM2. Here's my reasons:

I think we never needed the S-400s. We just needed an ADS like S-300PM2 and Patriot/Aster-30. I think the US wouldn't have given us our F-35s no matter what we do but if that wasn't the case; I think we could've got the F-35s from the US if we had an ADS like S-300 and not like the S-400. US doesn't want us to have S-400s because we are an important customer and after the S-400 deal, about 10-15 other counties showed interest for it. But it's a known fact that S-400 is a more advenced version of S-300PM2 and they are very similar. With that they'd had to give us our F-35s because half of the NATO already operates the S-300 and both the US and Israel are already using that planes over the skies of Syria; so they couldn't have blamed the S-400 for it. And the thing is, we never needed an ADS with a missile range of 400 kilometers. We just needed a system like S-300PM2 and Patriot. It was silly that our politicans decided on buying the S-400 instead.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

One cannot consider "F-35 vs S-400" without paying attention to who sells these systems (USA and Russia), Turkey's relations with these countries, and the greater realpolitik and geopolitics at play in our region and around the world. Turkey HAD TO choose the S-400 over F-35, it wasn't a decision that Turkey made lightly. US was (and still is) acting like an outright enemy interfering in Turkish democracy (July 15 coup d'etat attempt) and overtly supporting terrorist PKK/YPG against Turkey. This is NOT ally-like behavior, it's enemy-like behavior. How can anyone expect Turkey to purchase the F-35 at a HUGE COST, and then rely on the US for the next 30-40 years while they're making such incredibly HOSTILE moves against Turkey?

Let's be frank. F-35 isn't nearly as "good" as Lockheed Martin wants everyone to believe and even AMERICANS themselves are saying so. It has hundreds of unfixed bugs and issues according to some reports. Canada, US' top neighbor, cancelled its participation in the F-35 and pulled out of the program altogether because they didn't want to spend so much money on a plane that doesn't deliver what it promises. The reason a few other countries continue is because they either DEPEND on the US for protection against Russia and China, or, as in Israel's case, they get their F-35s practically for FREE.

In terms of technology, design capabilities and know-how, Turkey has already gained all it could from the F-35 by participating in the JSF program as a Level 3 partner. We've even trained a few pilots on them. Now we can take this cumulative experience and apply it to our national Hurjet and TF-X MMU programs.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Veya 400 km mesafe çaplı alanini hava savunma ile mı kapatmak daha ekonomik ve kolay yoksa F35 ile mi?

Problem with the F-35 in this case is 3-fold.

• F-35 costs waaaay more to fly and maintain than the F-16. Most sources cite something like $30,000-35,000/hour. Compare this to F-16's average $18,000/hour.
• F-35 is fully network-centric and computer driven. It uses US-controlled cyber systems like ALIS to update and maintain. America sells the F-35 not as an aircraft but "AS A SERVICE", similar to a software subscription like Office 365. The moment ties with the US break in the next 30-40 years (which is extremely likely), all our F-35s would be grounded. F-35 cannot be used against any target (be it Greece, Israel or another "US ally") without express US approval.
  
• Specialized radars that detect stealth aircraft (meter wave radars) are being developed and starting to become more common. Russia and China have already fielded them.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

Yunan da ve bizde F35 olsa bu adi Amerika'nın bizim F35lerde tam kontrole sahip olmaya izin vereceğini mi sanıyorsun. Ondan sonra Falkland savaşlarında ki Arjantin gibi şifresi çözülmüş cruiselarin patlamamasi

You really think that's what happend at the Falklands? You come here and talk with the kahve ağzı. We already don't have complete control on our F-16s, our airforce is fully dependant on US, having F-35s would only increase our dependancy on a little level. But it's pros are:

1. Tens of Billions of dollars worth of industrial participation that would give us the technology and the experience to develop the TF-X and contribute to our crappy economy at the same time
2. Easily being able to gain air superiority if tensions increased in the E.Mediterranean.
3. Having a stop-gap plane that would replace our aging fighters while we are waiting for the TF-X/MMU.
4. Gaining experince on operating 5. generation Stealth jets with the most advanced fighter ever built.

You guys stupiditly think that we can gain technologies and experiences by pouring money into it. If so, Saudi Arabia would have been the most advanced state in the World. Even Japan which has much more experince than us wanted to join the Tempest or pay for the US to develop one for them; even though they proved themselves to be capable of developing a 5th generation plane with the Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin.

Bizim nasıl hava savunmasına ihtiyacımız yok

We need air defence systems. But not a one like the S-400. Do you really think that S-400 can shot down an F-16 from 400 kilometers? We already have the Siper coming up, we could've waited for another 3 or 4 years more if we managed to wait for 30 years already. And we also didn't needed an ADS like the S-400 that has questionable BMD capacities.

400 km mesafe çaplı alanini hava savunma ile mı kapatmak daha ekonomik ve kolay yoksa F35 ile mi?

You can't control an airspace with only air defence systems. You can make A2AD with S-400s, but you can't fully control your airspace.Please read the thread in the link:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1249456497475629062

When it comes to the economics; we could have gained tens of billions of dollars by both the industrial participations and having an F-135 maintanence center in Turkey that would also give us critical technologies.

F35 alacağımıza zaten kısıtlı bütçemizle hava hava füzesi yüklü 100 tane Akıncı dronumuz olsun daha etkili oluruz.

Do you really think we can gain air superiority with an propeller driven drone?
------------------
History shows us that the side that has the air superiority always wins. Be it the WW2, Arab-Israeli wars, the Falklands or the Gulf Wars... it doesn't matter. Just back in March we saw an another example of that. How can you guys forget that?