How Tejas MK1A and JF-17 Block III fare against each other!

[Shabi1]

Refer to post #51, I have already refuted your links.

Please share facts and links to a researched article not your own two cents. You counter facts with facts.

Some information on KLJ-7A

According to it direct competitor is Vixen 1000E, so JF-17 will be fielding a radar matching the same league as Grippen NG. It also says cooling is flexible for retrofit by preserving old components, so although it is too early to say whether it will be done or not but could potentially see the same radar equipping the Block-2 & 1s if PAF desires in any future mid life update.

Ran it through google translate. Original site is in French
http://www.eastpendulum.com/klj-7a-1er-radar-embarque-aesa-chinois-dedie-a-lexport-est-en-vol

After its first public appearance at the Zhuhai Air Show last year, the KLJ-7A , China's first active electronic scanning radar (AESA) entirely dedicated to export, has disappeared from the radar screens. Its manufacturer, the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET), better known as Institute 14 of the CETC group, also remained very discreet on the subject.

And it is in a TV report of the Chinese channel CCTV-2 , broadcast this Monday, November 20, that we learn that this radar candidate for Standard Block III of the Sino-Pakistani fighter JF-17 has in fact already entered its flight test phase.

The journalists had the opportunity to attend one of the tests that took place on November 14, when the KLJ-7A, installed on a test bench flying Y-7 , was tested on its ability to detect multiple fast moving targets over 100 km, stability of the follow-up, as well as the simulation of arms fire. Two J-7 fighters assigned to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) also participated in the test to serve as a target.

The fact that these tests now take place at the CFTE also means that the Chinese on-board radar is on the final stretch before its final validation.


The two J-7s serving as targets in the KLJ-7A radar test (Image; CCTV-2)


Flying Test Bench, Registered 712, for KLJ-7A Radar Flight Test (Image; CCTV-2)


KLJ-7A Radar Test Screen (Image; CCTV-2)


The AESA KLJ-7A radar installed under the CFTE Y-7 radome (Image; CCTV-2)


KLJ-7A radar exhibited at Zhuhai Air Show 2016

Except for the details already mentioned last year in our file " Airshow China 2016: KLJ-7A, radar at AESA ", namely that it is an AESA radar with more than 1000 transmitters and receivers ( T / R), with at least 11 operating modes and a range of 170 km for targets of 5 m² SER, and able to track 15 different targets and engage 4 simultaneously, we finally could see what the KLJ-7A antennas face, which had been protected and therefore hidden during its exhibition in Zhuhai in November 2016.

Despite the quality of the images in the television report, it is assumed that the antennas are "Notch" type installed in a brick architecture, unlike the "patch" or "slot" type that has already been seen on some PESA embedded radars and Chinese AESA. This shape generates a greater beam width and also a better gain.

Although it is not T-R modules installed in 3D tile as is the case for the AESA radar J-20 hunter, but for a product dedicated to export must know how to adapt to the market and to its customers.

We also learn that the radar can be adapted to most on-board cooling systems, whether it is a system cooled in air or in liquid. This will reduce the cost of replacement on existing devices by preserving some components already installed on board.


Competitor of the KLJ-7A, the Italian AESA radar VIXEN 1000E

It is still unclear whether the KLJ-7A will be chosen by the Pakistan Air Force to equip the JF-17 Block III currently under development at the 611 Chengdu Institute in China, but it will face a significant competitor in its category which is the VIXEN 1000E , designated by the Italian Selex ES for the Swedish hunter Saab Gripen NG / E.

We should therefore relive another Sino-Italian competition as was the case between the Grifo S-7 mechanical radar and the Chinese equivalent KLJ-7 V2 at the time for the JF-17 Block I.

To be continued.

Henri K.

 

[AMCA]

LOL, the same old chutiya Indian arugement! Do you even have a clue what we can make?

This a just a preview. And we are not in business talking shit mate, that what you lot do.

Ja kay toilet bano, agar ban jatey hain tum say. aak third gen Tejas tumharey galley aur para howa hai.

These are some of the basic facilities every such workshop is expected to have. Okay ! Let me ask you how many patents does PAC Kamra have to its name or any other Pakistani industry? Whats Pakistani in JF-17 apart from 60% of its airframe and money?

Most of the items show in the video are of testing the Chinese systems.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

These are some of the basic facilities every such workshop is expected to have. Okay ! Let me ask you how many patents does PAC Kamra have to its name or any other Pakistani industry? Whats Pakistani in JF-17 apart from 60% of its airframe and money?

Most of the items show in the video are of testing the Chinese systems.

How much "Pakistani" JF is, its being discussed to death on this forum. I wont reinvent the wheel.

Watch the video again, from airframe to military grade avionics, we are building in-house. And this is just one such facility. Bottom line is, we got the means and capability to take our experiences that we gained from JF17 project, to new heights and build our own 5th gen aircraft. You better start thinking now about excuses that you lot are going to come up with when the first prototype of project Azm will start flying in Pakistani skies, few years down the line. And I can personally, assure you, that work is going in full swing.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Please share facts and links to a researched article not your own two cents. You counter facts with facts.

Some information on KLJ-7A

According to it direct competitor is Vixen 1000E, so JF-17 will be fielding a radar matching the same league as Grippen NG. It also says cooling is flexible for retrofit by preserving old components, so although it is too early to say whether it will be done or not but could potentially see the same radar equipping the Block-2 & 1s if PAF desires in any future mid life update.

Ran it through google translate. Original site is in French
http://www.eastpendulum.com/klj-7a-1er-radar-embarque-aesa-chinois-dedie-a-lexport-est-en-vol

After its first public appearance at the Zhuhai Air Show last year, the KLJ-7A , China's first active electronic scanning radar (AESA) entirely dedicated to export, has disappeared from the radar screens. Its manufacturer, the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET), better known as Institute 14 of the CETC group, also remained very discreet on the subject.

And it is in a TV report of the Chinese channel CCTV-2 , broadcast this Monday, November 20, that we learn that this radar candidate for Standard Block III of the Sino-Pakistani fighter JF-17 has in fact already entered its flight test phase.

The journalists had the opportunity to attend one of the tests that took place on November 14, when the KLJ-7A, installed on a test bench flying Y-7 , was tested on its ability to detect multiple fast moving targets over 100 km, stability of the follow-up, as well as the simulation of arms fire. Two J-7 fighters assigned to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) also participated in the test to serve as a target.

The fact that these tests now take place at the CFTE also means that the Chinese on-board radar is on the final stretch before its final validation.


The two J-7s serving as targets in the KLJ-7A radar test (Image; CCTV-2)


Flying Test Bench, Registered 712, for KLJ-7A Radar Flight Test (Image; CCTV-2)


KLJ-7A Radar Test Screen (Image; CCTV-2)


The AESA KLJ-7A radar installed under the CFTE Y-7 radome (Image; CCTV-2)


KLJ-7A radar exhibited at Zhuhai Air Show 2016

Except for the details already mentioned last year in our file " Airshow China 2016: KLJ-7A, radar at AESA ", namely that it is an AESA radar with more than 1000 transmitters and receivers ( T / R), with at least 11 operating modes and a range of 170 km for targets of 5 m² SER, and able to track 15 different targets and engage 4 simultaneously, we finally could see what the KLJ-7A antennas face, which had been protected and therefore hidden during its exhibition in Zhuhai in November 2016.

Despite the quality of the images in the television report, it is assumed that the antennas are "Notch" type installed in a brick architecture, unlike the "patch" or "slot" type that has already been seen on some PESA embedded radars and Chinese AESA. This shape generates a greater beam width and also a better gain.

Although it is not T-R modules installed in 3D tile as is the case for the AESA radar J-20 hunter, but for a product dedicated to export must know how to adapt to the market and to its customers.

We also learn that the radar can be adapted to most on-board cooling systems, whether it is a system cooled in air or in liquid. This will reduce the cost of replacement on existing devices by preserving some components already installed on board.


Competitor of the KLJ-7A, the Italian AESA radar VIXEN 1000E

It is still unclear whether the KLJ-7A will be chosen by the Pakistan Air Force to equip the JF-17 Block III currently under development at the 611 Chengdu Institute in China, but it will face a significant competitor in its category which is the VIXEN 1000E , designated by the Italian Selex ES for the Swedish hunter Saab Gripen NG / E.

We should therefore relive another Sino-Italian competition as was the case between the Grifo S-7 mechanical radar and the Chinese equivalent KLJ-7 V2 at the time for the JF-17 Block I.

To be continued.

Henri K.

The Gripen E will not use the Vixen 1000E.
It will use the Raven ES-05A radar which is joint development between Leonardo and SAAB,
using SAAB’s proprietary DSP algorithms allowing much better performance vs stealth targets.
Not sure Selex could sell this to anyone without SAAB’s approval.

 

[Shabi1]

The Gripen E will not use the Vixen 1000E.
It will use the Raven ES-05A radar which is joint development between Leonardo and SAAB,
using SAAB’s proprietary DSP algorithms allowing much better performance vs stealth targets.
Not sure Selex could sell this to anyone without SAAB’s approval.

You are right but Raven ES05 is actually a customized version for Grippen of the Vixen 1000E

"The Raven ES-05 is an evolution of the fire control radars of the Raven family (500E and 1000E), manufactured by Selex Galileo. Selex Galileo has the unique distinction of not only creating an array of fire control AESA radars (the Vixen E family) but also a number of AESA surveillance radars (the Seaspray E family).

The Raven ES-05 prototype called Raven 1000P is based on the Vixen 1000E
"

http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=9
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-saabs-gripen-demo-makes-first-flight-with-334440/
"Now equipped with the antenna and other elements of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the two-seat demonstrator resumed its flight activities on 27 October, when it performed a sortie from Saab's Linköping site in Sweden."

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

You are right but Raven ES05 is actually a customized version for Grippen of the Vixen 1000E

"The Raven ES-05 is an evolution of the fire control radars of the Raven family (500E and 1000E), manufactured by Selex Galileo. Selex Galileo has the unique distinction of not only creating an array of fire control AESA radars (the Vixen E family) but also a number of AESA surveillance radars (the Seaspray E family).

The Raven ES-05 prototype called Raven 1000P is based on the Vixen 1000E
"

http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=9
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-saabs-gripen-demo-makes-first-flight-with-334440/
"Now equipped with the antenna and other elements of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the two-seat demonstrator resumed its flight activities on 27 October, when it performed a sortie from Saab's Linköping site in Sweden."

The ”customization” allowed SAAB to improve its detection range with 150% vs stealth targets on the PS/04 pulse doppler radar. It is all in the DSP algorithms.

 

[Shabi1]

The ”customization” allowed SAAB to improve its detection range with 150% vs stealth targets on the PS/04 pulse doppler radar. It is all in the DSP algorithms.

Vixen-1000ES/Raven ES-05 are same but customized. Infact it's a rebranding of the same product since Selex EX is now Leonardo.
You are talking about a different radar in the previous Grippen version which recently got a upgrade available.
The improvement you are talking about is an upgrade for the existing non AESA radar on Grippen C/D PS/04 is a non AESA radar.Please read the below article.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/gripen-customers-offered-major-radar-enhancement-411687/

Disclosed by company officials on 27 April, the Mk4 modification involves the replacement of two line-replaceable units in the back section of the mechanically-scanned radar. This provides a new exciter/receiver module with digital waveform generation and a new radar processing unit, along with updated software. PS-05/A Mk4 gains a claimed increase in detection range of at least 100%, and this is expected to rise to 150% for a high-altitude air-to-air engagement scenario by 2017, Saab says. Such a

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Vixen-1000ES/Raven ES-05 are same but customized. Infact it's a rebranding of the same product since Selex EX is now Leonardo.
You are talking about a different radar in the previous Grippen version which recently got a upgrade available.
The improvement you are talking about is an upgrade for the existing non AESA radar on Grippen C/D PS/04 is a non AESA radar.Please read the below article.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/gripen-customers-offered-major-radar-enhancement-411687/

Disclosed by company officials on 27 April, the Mk4 modification involves the replacement of two line-replaceable units in the back section of the mechanically-scanned radar. This provides a new exciter/receiver module with digital waveform generation and a new radar processing unit, along with updated software. PS-05/A Mk4 gains a claimed increase in detection range of at least 100%, and this is expected to rise to 150% for a high-altitude air-to-air engagement scenario by 2017, Saab says. Such a

The Raven 05-ES processing unit algorithms are based on the earlier radar.
Not neccessarily the same Hardware, but the DSP processing is based on FPGAs,
and SAAB has their own algorithms.
Do they share those with Selex. That is not neccessarily the case.
Selex have their own algorithms which can be sold for the Vixen 1000E.

 

[Shabi1]

The Raven 05-ES processing unit algorithms are based on the earlier radar.
Not neccessarily the same Hardware, but the DSP processing is based on FPGAs,
and SAAB has their own algorithms.
Do they share those with Selex. That is not neccessarily the case.
Selex have their own algorithms which can be sold for the Vixen 1000E.

Im not denying Saab did their own tweaking but again what you are talking about is below, you mentioned 150% increase and all I could find was you were quoting performance upgrade for the non AESA radar on older model. Also digital waveform generation is another term for DSP (Digital Signal Processing) and FPGA stands for (
Field-programmable gate array) which means programmable hardware. Both mentioned below. Both are standard concepts.

"Disclosed by company officials on 27 April, the Mk4 modification involves the replacement of two line-replaceable units in the back section of the mechanically-scanned radar. This provides a new exciter/receiver module with digital waveform generation and a new radar processing unit, along with updated software. PS-05/A Mk4 gains a claimed increase in detection range of at least 100%, and this is expected to rise to 150% for a high-altitude air-to-air engagement scenario by 2017, Saab says. Such a"

And

http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/Vixen-1000ES_a002404002.aspx
Vixen 1000ES

Initial Operational Capability (IOC): 2017
Total Production: ?
Also Known As: Raven ES-05
Origin: Italy and Sweden
Corporations: Galileo Avionica, Saab, Saab Microwave Systems and SELEX ES

Anyways the point is Vixen-1000ES is one of the radar contenders for the JF-17 Block-3 and prospective Chinese manufacturer for the shortlisting also lists it as a direct competitor in terms of capabilities as well as a french information source lists it as a benchmark. So JF-17 Block-3 is slated to get a radar in similar league as the Grippen NG.

And the secondary Chinese option is a rebranded Elta-2052 for which Chinese have already obtained the technology several years ago. So in terms of radar the Block-3 options are not inferior.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2015/08/23/chinese-radar-strongly-resembles-israeli-product/

 

[rcrmj]

a comparison made to Indian made plane is a disgrace, others make weapon systems for serious purpose, but Indian```well, they make (assemble) stuff just for the sake of their grand delusion

anyway, KLJ-7A is a good radar, it'd be better if PA got more money for it.

 

[Arsalan]

Thanks, @kahonapyarhai , for this reproduction intended to make tempers flare up on the Pakistani side, and to make PDF kiddies jump up and down on the Indian side. You should be complimented for the smooth, almost imperceptible change of stance to an agent provocateur. Deft, professional, practised......

Actually sir, people go by the history when judging such development works. Why else will the world call western avionics as reliable and the Chinese ones and unreliable? Because that is what HISTORY tells us, this is the background study of these systems that take us to this conclusion with no real life comparison of modern Chinese avionics with western ones available (from battle ground). So when ever such comparisons are made, judgement will be pasted passed on the history, the record of the project.

Comparing a planned Blk-III of a plane which have 100+ Blk-I and Blk-II operational and on active duty with a planned Mk1A of a plane that have a failed Mk1 after some 3/4 decades of development is a bit ridiculous. It is the same as people make fun of Iranian planes that THEY claim to be 5th generation.

 

[Daghalodi]

Im tired of this comparison!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

a comparison made to Indian made plane is a disgrace, others make weapon systems for serious purpose, but Indian```well, they make (assemble) stuff just for the sake of their grand delusion

anyway, KLJ-7A is a good radar, it'd be better if PA got more money for it.

...and also for the amusement of our deeper-higher-sweeter members, who would be jobless otherwise.

 

[Mav3rick]

Actually sir, people go by the history when judging such development works. Why else will the world call western avionics as reliable and the Chinese ones and unreliable? Because that is what HISTORY tells us, this is the background study of these systems that take us to this conclusion with no real life comparison of modern Chinese avionics with western ones available (from battle ground). So when ever such comparisons are made, judgement will be pasted passed on the history, the record of the project.

Don't mind but I think the current general assumption about Chinese products being inferior in quality when compared to western products is based on our everyday house hold electronics and nothing more. People usually buy the cheapest available product and this is an area where the Chinese have excelled, they will produce goods based on your demand and not based on quality; however, if you have the money, the Chinese can produce goods which would match any western good.

In 2002/3, in Australia, I bought a Chinese TV and a DVD Player. The TV was very cheap, less than the price of a much smaller used Sony. The picture quality was acceptable but nowhere close to Sony. The DVD Player on the other hand, a bargain at 110 AUD, impressed me beyond anything. I recall that I would copy Movie DVD's to cheap record-able DVD's which no branded DVD player would play but this Chinese DVD player would play those DVD's flawlessly. Not just that, the branded and much more expensive DVD players would either get stuck, jump time or miss tracks on damaged/scratched DVD's but this cheap Chinese DVD player would play those DVD's as if there was nothing wrong with the DVD's.

Basically, the Chinese can produce excellent stuff and the general understanding that Chinese products are inferior is just a misconception.

 

[MimophantSlayer]

Please share facts and links to a researched article not your own two cents. You counter facts with facts.

Well you could have just as easily googled it.
All of this was discussed years ago and seeing as the article you posted is from 2015 it is all but obvious.

The ndtv article mentions trainer aircrafts.
It is ready and both the FrenchAF and USAF air-chiefs flew on the Tejas trainer a few months ago.
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/fr...sortie-on-iafs-tejas/articleshow/62819915.cms

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-...india-tejas-aircraft-in-jodhpur-today-1808049

It also mentions production.
http://defencenews.in/article/HAL-s...on-line-for-LCA-Tejas-to-boost-numbers-250247

The article mentions countermeasures and RWR, which are also complete.
http://www.tejas.gov.in/ADA-Tejas Brochure-2015.pdf

MFDs.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...isplays-for-sukhoi-30-mki-116070100632_1.html