How should PN counter the IN Carrier Battle Group

[maxpayne]

The reason I posted the above introduction, is that I would like to invite a a productive discussion specifically to operate & counter the IN CBG keeping in view the existing capabilities of both adversaries.


Limit your views to this..!!!

Yes. discussion should be contained to already available resources

 

[maxpayne]

just 1 thing Use Zarb

 

[Signalian]

It depends where the CBG is stationed during the war, what sort of mission is expected from it, does it even play a part in IN offensive Ops against PN and Pakistan's coast or does it stay out of reach of PN and PAF, is it ear marked to come inside PN waters for supporting amphibious operations or does it get stationed south of Karachi or south of Pasni/Gawadar to divert PN and PAF by creating an airfield in the Arabian Sea.

In any case, if PN needs to take it out, then the only potent weapon that can harass this CBG are the submarines. Any attack from the air and from the surface will get detected earlier than the submarine and can be countered by IN air, surface and submerged assets.

Members suggesting JF-17 armed with long range missiles, the IN CBG can put more fighters in air (up to 10-12 Mig-29's easily and maybe more), so sending in 4-6 JF-17's may not be the best idea, plus the IN Carrier could float out of range of PAF.

PN subs are the best. maybe send across 2 or 3 out of 5.

 

[lcloo]

I find this thread discussion very educational because it is based on some scenarios that might happen in future. So I am going to take the role of the aggressor i.e. the CBG commander, with a mission to strike a military target located 200km inland. Just to see what will be your counter action.

Before departing my home port, I will have an area sweep to ensure that there is no enemy submarine or enemy surveillance in 50 to 100KM radius. This is to ensure no enemy submarine can "ambush" my fleet.

During sailing to my target area, I will have a submarine 50Km to 100KM ahead of me, its mission is to detect enemy submarine.

On the surface, One long range air defence destroyer 5-10KM ahead, at both flanks, 5-10KM away, one frigate each for anti-submarine role as well as mid-range air defence role. And behind me, another long range air defence destroyer.

In the sky I will have air force AWACS co-ordinating with me, checking air spaces ahead of me as well as above the target area.

Upon reaching my designated operation point, which is 500-700km away from my target. I will send up MIG-29K (combat radius 850KM) with either 100KM range glide bomb or 300KM range cruise missiles.

The MIG-29K will release their cruise missiles 50-70KM away from the coastline. another option is in the absence of enemy air defence, they will use the 100KM range glide bomb.

The strike group will be equipped with anti-radiation air to ground missiles, BVR and WVR air to air missiles. And depending on final assessment of enemy air defence capability, 30% to 50% of the aircraft send out will be fitted out with weapons for air-superiority role.

So, now think for a while before responding how and why your counter actions will be. Remember, this is for positive learning purpose.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Temp lease .....?

They will be here before the war.

@Rashid Mahmood
Sir what is the feasibility of using/training SSGN commandoes in carrying out sub surface anti enemy asset attacks againt Indian Navy vessels??

I know that the British Special Boat Service carried out such attacks against Kriegsmarine vessels in WW2

Although they did not have sub surface transport for commandoes in those times and had to use camouflaged canoes. But in modern times such sub surface crafts to transport commandoes is now available in modern times. For example:
View attachment 545678

Also there was a mission in Call of Duty MW3 where a team of US special forces carry out a similar mission against an enemy Russian submarine.

In this situation we can also employ our midget submarines. As AFAIK we r in process of making a new design together with Turks.

The midget submarine will get them in proximity of the target vessels and then using a delivery vehicles or sort of personal under water scooters the PN seals can place explosives(heres the caveat as I don't know if PN Seals are in possession of such potent under water explosives or not) and commence destruction of enemy carrier battle group.

Such clandestine missions can be conducted in harbours or anchorages, but a CBG at steaming at sea is not a feasible target for such ops.

Reality is much more complex than COD.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Such clandestine missions can be conducted in harbours or anchorages, but a CBG at steaming at sea is not a feasible target for such ops.

Reality is much more complex than COD.

Sabotage it before it commences,it's mission.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

A scenario for all to think and discuss:

We can take the 90Bs all operational and available, plus 2 Agosta 70s.
Full surface fleet.
Full Air arm

No SOSUS coverage in the Arabian sea.

SITREP:

CBG has been spotted leaving western command HQ in Karwar and proceeding West.

The CBG comprises of Vikramaditya, 2 X Kolkata class destroyers, 2 X Shivalik and 2 X Talwar-class frigates, Kamorta-class anti-submarine warfare corvettes and 1 X fleet tanker. INS Chakra II is the sub-surface component alongwith 2 X Kilo class submarines.

The CBG is likely to intercept & attack our ships & merchantmen to cripple our economy.
A coastal strike against Pakistan is unlikely from the CBG. For that they have other options.



What is the likely deployment of the CBG in order to strike Pakistan.
What steps can be taken by the PN to counter this threat.

 

[Khatri_pune]

I find this thread discussion very educational because it is based on some scenarios that might happen in future. So I am going to take the role of the aggressor i.e. the CBG commander, with a mission to strike a military target located 200km inland. Just to see what will be your counter action.

Before departing my home port, I will have an area sweep to ensure that there is no enemy submarine or enemy surveillance in 50 to 100KM radius. This is to ensure no enemy submarine can "ambush" my fleet.

During sailing to my target area, I will have a submarine 50Km to 100KM ahead of me, its mission is to detect enemy submarine.

On the surface, One long range air defence destroyer 5-10KM ahead, at both flanks, 5-10KM away, one frigate each for anti-submarine role as well as mid-range air defence role. And behind me, another long range air defence destroyer.

In the sky I will have air force AWACS co-ordinating with me, checking air spaces ahead of me as well as above the target area.

Upon reaching my designated operation point, which is 500-700km away from my target. I will send up MIG-29K (combat radius 850KM) with either 100KM range glide bomb or 300KM range cruise missiles.

The MIG-29K will release their cruise missiles 50-70KM away from the coastline. another option is in the absence of enemy air defence, they will use the 100KM range glide bomb.

The strike group will be equipped with anti-radiation air to ground missiles, BVR and WVR air to air missiles. And depending on final assessment of enemy air defence capability, 30% to 50% of the aircraft send out will be fitted out with weapons for air-superiority role.

So, now think for a while before responding how and why your counter actions will be. Remember, this is for positive learning purpose.

very detailed analysis.... very impressive..... let me put it as i think of it....

with Indian Navy prospective,

CGB will definitely have elaborate arrangement for safety of the group. will most probably contain 2 subs, 3 frigates and a destroyer as a complement. Subs for under water protection and will lead the group by at least 75 to 100km. main role is to sweep the sea floor for any ambush by enemy subs. Primary role of Frigates will be medium air defense and supporting sub surface defense. will surround to the carrier with a distance of 10 to 12km. Destroyer will be behind the carrier with a primary role of long to ultra long range air defense with limited surface & land attack.

Carrier has a complement of 34 air assets. which will be split to 24 fixed wing & 10 rotary wing. Rotary wing will have 7 anti sub helis for hunting the sub & perimeter petrol up to 150 km. 3 will be AWACS for air space surveillance & at least 1 will be in air at any given moment. they will search up to 200 Km air space for any hostile unit. The 24 fixed wing will be MiG29K. looking at the operational availability, expect only 15 will be available at any given moment....
primary role of MiG29 will be air defense & combat air patrolling. 12 will be deployed for this role 3 will be in air at any given moment & 2 will be fully ready to take off with pilots in their seat.... only 3 will be used for surface & lad attack with stand off weapons or long range air to ground ammunition...

The entire purpose of CGB is to project power & pressurize the adversary. it will be parked well out side the range of the coastal batteries, may be 700km from the shore. it will also help in blockade of the sea lanes & supplies....

from Pakistany prospective,

countering Indian CGB & neutralizing it will boost the moral of all Pakistany with tremendous moral blow to Indians. no surface ship can counter the CGB & will be a suicidal mission. the ways to counter CGB can be a combined & sustained raids from Sub surface & aerial attacks. with API tech, the submarines are black hole in the sea & very difficult to detect.....

engage the CGB with sustained air raids with stand off weapons, keep them engaged in the air while try to slip in couple of subs as close as possible & engage with full force at once. no second chance. as subs once detected will be dead in just matter of time..... the cost will be high. sustained air raids may need to sacrifice couple of squadrons of jets and also the subs will be on one way trip....

so the cost will be high for both the nations....

 

[Tom M]

Its a sitting duck. First thing to go down when war breaks out. Just overwhelm the CIWS with a barrage of standoff missiles from different angles.

Indeed. IN doesn't seem to have an edge over PN.

 

[Humble Analyst]

INS Vikramaditya is a modified Kiev-class aircraft carrier which entered into service with the Indian Navy in 2013.

Originally built as Baku and commissioned in 1987, the carrier served with the Soviet Navy and later with the Russian Navy (as Admiral Gorshkov) before being decommissioned in 1996.The carrier was purchased by India on 20 January 2004 after years of negotiations at a final price of $2.35 billion.The ship successfully completed her sea trials in July 2013 and aviation trials in September 2013.
View attachment 545578
She was commissioned on 16 November 2013 at a ceremony held at Severodvinsk, Russia.On 14 June 2014, the Prime Minister of India formally inducted INS Vikramaditya into the Indian Navy.

INS Vikramaditya is going to be escorted by at least 2 Destroyer, 2-3 Frigates/Corvettes and around 1-2 Submarines, combine the aircraft carrier with all these ships and you get a very effective fighting force.

INS Vikramaditya is part of Western Fleet therefore it is primarily deployed to contain a Pakistani aggression.

Destroyers, Frigates and submarines accompanying the carrier are more than capable of sinking enemy submarines and surface vessels.

INS Vikramaditya could launch Mig-29K to take out key ground facilities, airports and military installments or it could help IAF by attacking Pakistani fighters/interceptors from rear.

Destroyers and Frigates are also capable of launching Surface to Surface missiles, combine it with MIG's stationed on board the INS Vikramaditya and a little help from IAF, the carrier battle group is more than capable of destroying the entire enemy military infrastructure within hours.




The reason I posted the above introduction, is that I would like to invite a a productive discussion specifically to operate & counter the IN CBG keeping in view the existing capabilities of both adversaries.

Pakistan should have at least 2 squadrons of multirole aircraft with possible stealth capability and having better range than mig 29 k based out of 2 bases from the southern bases. Their range to well exceed the range of carrier based mig 29s. In addition the bases having theses squadrons should be able to intercept anything from Indian bases. The range should not be dependent upon air refuelling alone.
Then be prepared for if India adapts and changes over due course.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Obviously reality will be much different.

In COD they also show the Russian sub to be in NYC harbor. Ready to launch cruise missiles.

They will be here before the war.



Such clandestine missions can be conducted in harbours or anchorages, but a CBG at steaming at sea is not a feasible target for such ops.

Reality is much more complex than COD.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Indeed. IN doesn't seem to have an edge over PN.

Subtle sarcasm dear boy. Went right over your head. Trying to have some fun along the way; don't ruin it.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Kya hogya hazrat ,,, JF17 ,,, not JF-16 ...

Sir we do not have any reilable evidence of purchase of CM400 AKG

No reliable evidence was available before IAF is basically "garbage IN, garbage OUT" minus the "Rafael"...

 

[kris]

It will be foolish to assume that Indian cbg will come anywhere close to Pakistan before it's navy is worn down..

Once PN is down CBG will wreck havoc

Even during 1971 ins vikrant entered full fledged action after ghazi is sunk....

A cbg is a floating air Base. No one will risk losing early in war...
To take it down Pakistan as on now don't have enough resources to hunt it far away from home

 

[S.Y.A]

multi layered air defence system on the coast, land based long ranged anti ship cruise missiles, dedicated squadrons of fighters in anti ship role, and subs. frigates to attack from rear or flank to divert the attention(will be a suicide attack), subs to get up close and personal(again, a suicide attack), and land based CMs and aircraft to attack from Pakistan coast.

but... IAF will be supporting the IN, they will hit the land based anti-ship installations, air defence systems and anti ship aircraft from the flank. the one with better sensors, EW equipment and tactics will win.

also, a determined attack by Indian army may get through to Karachi(they were able to get to umerkot in '71), thus denying the Paksitani navy any air support, and a safe harbor.

the only thing Pakistan can do is to invite the Chinese to establish a naval base at Pakistan, and to post their ships both at Gwadar and Karachi.