How should Pakistan tackle S400 acquisition by India? The Drone Swarm Technology....

[Osiris]

The Russians aren’t exporting the 40N6 missile but rather export variant the 40N6E which is not quite as advanced as the domestic one. This is what was sold to India and China

Incorrect, firstly China will not be getting 40N6 or 40N6E missiles. 40N6E is just export variant of 40N6 missiles, it has the same range and all the same capabilities as 40N6 missile.

First of all do we have to counter every dam thing?????? We never had numbers but now we already lost tech edge so why not we accept this???????? lol
Now seriously on topic. Best ways are

1. Send 2 spy satellites just to monitor Indian ABMs.....
2. Increase the range of Ghaznavi Missile to 500 km , give them vehicles just like Babur .
3. Build more Babur
4. Build hypersonic Babur (brahmoos ka jawab kub ka dew hai)
5. Upgrade Raad And increase range and efficiency.

Above all combine can do what we want to do...… S-400 is very good , best system but if we launch above missiles at S-400 in numbers two things can(will) happen .

1. S-400 will stop all of them in air (but still lose missiles) , good for us.
2. If S-400 misses 1 missile , that too will result in S-400 loss .

Other Indian ABMs are not that good and advance they will not be any problem (threat) for our (above) Missiles attack ….

Firstly ballistic missiles are not accurate enough to target objects, size of a truck. Chinese have their carrier killer missiles but an aircraft carrier is 500 times larger than a S400 missile truck.

Secondly S400 has been designed to shoot MRBM with speeds up Mach 14, as well low flying cruise missile at a range of 40 KM.

To target a S400 truck with a non homing cruise missile such as Babur, you need know the exact co-ordinates the S400 missiles trucks and then hope they stay in the same position.

Because S400 is a mobile system, can employ shoot and scoot tactics.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Incorrect, firstly China will not be getting 40N6 or 40N6E missiles. 40N6E is just export variant of 40N6 missiles, it has the same range and all the same capabilities as 40N6 missile.



Firstly ballistic missiles are not accurate enough to target objects, size of a truck. Chinese have their carrier killer missiles but an aircraft carrier is 500 times larger than a S400 missile truck.

Secondly S400 has been designed to shoot MRBM with speeds up Mach 14, as well low flying cruise missile at a range of 40 KM.

To target a S400 truck with a non homing cruise missile such as Babur, you need know the exact co-ordinates the S400 missiles trucks and then hope they stay in the same position.

Because S400 is a mobile system, can employ shoot and scoot tactics.

Think what ever you want...……….

 

[Osiris]

Saturation doctrine weapon can only be killed by saturation and asymmetric attack. The precision doctrine fails here as the SAM system is designed to tackle all likely scenarios used by the west and its Proxy states like Pakistan.

S400 has a solution: A networked Mesh with Drones that are able to DRFM the SR signal in real time and create targets like the MALD. S400 operator, if engages, loses important weapons. If does not engage, then has to deal with immense traffic on screen of actual flying aircraft and false targets that can allow a package to get through. However, i don't see S400 as the real threat to PAF aircraft but Spyder SAM system, which will have to force Pakistan to fly low and do pop up attacks with SOWs and REKs.
Coming back to S400, a set of 10-20 MALD type high speed drones with smart EW packages should do the job, create a lot of nice traffic and incoming ABMs rendering a S400 incapable to do anything else, or "engage" all the targets or the decoys (which would be flying like fighters or cruise missiles), letting go of precious rounds. As it engages, it is bright and loud and can be seen by a dead ESM receiver on any remote aircraft. If the battery chooses not to engage, it loses. If it choses to engage, it loses. As the battery re-loads, it is taken out. End of S400 chronicles.

It is an unfair and impractical scenario - you are throwing all the resources of Pakistan(and even some Pakistan does not have and will not have) against a S400 battery.

You wont be fighting a singular s400 battery but entire Indian air defence network which will have multi level radars, from Aerostats to massive swordfish ABM radars, fighters, and multiple types of SAMs.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

The idea is good but the modern bmd like a 400 has the capability to differentiate between real target and decoy. Our last pdv test was aimed at that and it did perfectly well. The best way to cripple s 400 is to send numbers of high speed cruise missile towards it radar simultaneously and wish for some good result. Probably india will fire numbers of BRAHMOS in chinese S400.
To shootdown .S400 , you need high technology missile and good luck.

The radar recognition systems and their lag time are well known and can be looked into.

It is an unfair and impractical scenario - you are throwing all the resources of Pakistan(and even some Pakistan does not have and will not have) against a S400 battery.

You wont be fighting a singular s400 battery but entire Indian air defence network which will have multi level radars, from Aerostats to massive swordfish ABM radars, fighters, and multiple types of SAMs.

War will never will fair, and kill Indian morale, everything and the kitchen sink will be thrown at a S-400 battery to prove a point.

 

[ranawat]

From the quick scan I did your right. Only F-22 can operate in a S-400 environment. Other aircraft like Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripens, Rafales, F-16s never mind Thunders will drop out of skies like clay pigeons in a hunting range. Rest of the ideas here are just fantasy. There is reason why US fears the S-400 and everybody wants it. Since I don't think there is much chance of Trump giving Pakistan F-22 [the 1980s Afghan jihad is long gone] that means Pakistan has no answer to the S-400.

But and this is what I can't understand? Fanboys aside why would Pakistan need to carry deep strike penetration into India? What scenario would this happen? Any war between Pakistan and India would be limited to theatre like Kargil where PAF took extended nap during the entire conflict. The only time I can see Pakistan needing to carry out deep penetration would be in a full scal war. But under such scenario the war would be lost within 7 days as the massive conventional superiority takes it toll on PA. In this scenario the war would escalate to nuclear conflict and S-400s would not matter much in those circumstances.

So my view. Can we forget about S-400s and also forget about policing the Red Sea for Somali pirates. Instead rely on the nuclear deterant to keep India behind the Durand Line. The money saved can we please spend on -

• Schools
• Universities
• Houses
• Hospitals
• Police
• Sanitation

And then when have built up a large body of educated scientific pool from our young generation we can make our own S-400s etc. After all are Russian boys and girls genetically superior to our young that they can go forward and develop such marvellous weapons???

And the S-400 https://fightersweep.com/3414/how-scary-is-the-russian-s-400-sam-system/

Very nice and sane post .

We have Missile Name Ghaznavi Range 300 km , Improve the range to 500 Km build them as 6 missile or 4 missile tube launcher , make sure they cost us cheap , send 2 good spy satellites in space , if India brings S-400 near border ( in 500 km area) find them and bomb hell out of that area with Ghaznavis …. Let indian waist there missiles on Ghaznavi , If they stop them they will lose S-400 and if not they will still lose S-400 ……..
Only one thing important keep the whole package price low , under 2 billion $$ .. build 100s of Ghaznavis . . .
Rest improvement in MIRV tech and R&D on different other methods required emergency importance , For R&D build new engineering Uni . . .

This is missile not game of chess .

 

[Osiris]

The radar recognition systems and their lag time are well known and can be looked into.



War will never will fair, and kill Indian morale, everything and the kitchen sink will be thrown at a S-400 battery to prove a point.

But you will not be facing a stand alone S400 battery working in isolation, but the entire air defence network to reach that S400 battery. So this above plan of your will fail.

Forget about rest of Indian air defence assets, just add IAF fighters to equation and see how your plan crumbles.

 

[Falcon26]

Incorrect, firstly China will not be getting 40N6 or 40N6E missiles. 40N6E is just export variant of 40N6 missiles, it has the same range and all the same capabilities as 40N6 missile.



Firstly ballistic missiles are not accurate enough to target objects, size of a truck. Chinese have their carrier killer missiles but an aircraft carrier is 500 times larger than a S400 missile truck.

Secondly S400 has been designed to shoot MRBM with speeds up Mach 14, as well low flying cruise missile at a range of 40 KM.

To target a S400 truck with a non homing cruise missile such as Babur, you need know the exact co-ordinates the S400 missiles trucks and then hope they stay in the same position.

Because S400 is a mobile system, can employ shoot and scoot tactics.

Nonsense! What’s your proof China won’t be getting the 40N6/E?

Do you have a reference for that information?

http://tass.com/defense/1026630

 

[Osiris]

Nonsense! What’s your proof China won’t be getting the 40N6/E?

Well firstly China is not MTCR member can not be exported a missile of more than 300 Km range by another MTCR member without MTCR exemption first.
Secondly 40N6E missile is still in the testing phase, where as delivery S400 to china have already started.

 

[Falcon26]

Well firstly China is not MTCR member can not be exported a missile of more than 300 Km range by another MTCR member without MTCR exemption first.
Secondly 40N6E missile is still in the testing phase, where as delivery S400 to china have already started.

Again nonsense. China is not limited by MTCR. In fact, the widely held assumption is that it’s India (not China) that won’t be getting the 40N63.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1018556696430510085

 

[Osiris]

Again nonsense. China is not limited by MTCR. In fact, the widely held assumption is that it’s India (not China) that won’t be getting the 40N63.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1018556696430510085

Is China a MTCR member?

Is Russia a MTCR member ??

Then why on Earth China is not limited by MTCR ?

 

[Falcon26]

Is China a MTCR member?

Is Russia a MTCR member ??

Then why on Earth China is not limited by MTCR ?

It’s just a formality. All information points out to China getting the 40N6E

Do you have a reference for that information?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1034093096596893697

 

[Osiris]

It’s just a formality. All information points out to China getting the 40N6E

https://twitter.com/x/status/1034093096596893697

Please stop quoting twitter - where anyone can write anything without any evidence.

And MTCR in not just a formality, it is a binding treaty, which member countries can not just bypass, Or Brahmos missile which now has a range of 600 Km (after India has become a member of MTCR), would not have been just restricted to 300km for the past decade.

 

[Falcon26]

Please stop quoting twitter - where anyone can write anything without any evidence.

And MTCR in not just a formality, it is a binding treaty, which member countries can not just bypass, Or Brahmos missile which now has a range of 600 Km (after India has become a member of MTCR), would not have been just restricted to 300km for the past decade.

Assertion made by the editor of one of the most premier magazines is not credible because it doesn’t chime well with your hopes? The person making the claims is very credible and has wide range of access to different sources. I take his views quite serious.

You have provided zero evidence of China not getting the S-400 due to “mtcr” At any case, mtcr is not a legally binding treaty and their are no penalties for violating it.

 

[Osiris]

Assertion made by the editor of one of the most premier magazines is not credible because it doesn’t chime well with your hopes? The person making the claims is very credible and has wide range of access to different sources. I take his views quite serious.

You have provided zero evidence of China not getting the S-400 due to “mtcr” At any case, mtcr is not a legally binding treaty and their are no penalties for violating it.

Russia has never circumvented MTCR, is not going start doing it now, especially not for China.

So let us know 40N6 arrives in China, because S400 deliveries have started, yet China does not have 40N6 missile.

 

[Falcon26]

Russia has never circumvented MTCR, is not going start doing it now, especially not for China.

So let us know 40N6 arrives in China, because S400 deliveries have started, yet China does not have 40N6 missile.

You still haven’t proven that China won’t get it!