How should Pakistan tackle S400 acquisition by India? The Drone Swarm Technology....

[55100864]

electromagnetic suppression

 

[Bilal.]

There was an answer for this exact question. Dont know the post no or the poster. For an drone to come in, it needs to navigate through Akash, MR SAMS, QR Sams in the dense IB and Loc network first. Then after that it needs to encounter Spyder and only then it can encounter the S400. So from 2020 onwards its going on to be a 5 layer network(Even more counting small range SAMS DRDO is working on for Army). Modern Radars have acquired the capability to differentiate between a drone, missiles, fighter and a plane. How do you exactly propose to make this autonomous flying munition work?
You must be aware flying awefully low decreases the range of any aircrafts and missiles.

It will fly low, it will have comparatively low RCS, it will have mission planning (following way-points) to exploit AD weakness and it will have numbers, hence, the swarm. Plus it would be very low cost, for each munition costing a few thousand to few ten thousand you will have to expend a missile worth a few hundred thousand to few million.

 

[SabzShaheen]

No one was expecting Pakistan to test a MIRV but it did last year. For now, MIRV should be able to take out S-400. Especially when one considers the very short distance between India and Pakistan.

The presence of MIRV technology might actually limit India’s use of S-400 systems for the simple reason that if India were to use it, Pakistan will be forced to take them out. It creates a possible nuclear escalation because if Pakistan were to take out the S-400 with a MIRV Ababeel, there’s no way for India to know if these incoming missiles are nuclear armed.

Ababeel is a joke but I'm not surprised people on this forum believe it's actually real. Only a missile was shown flying but MIRV was never demonstrated and the idea that Pakistan could have MIRV is quite unlikely especially given that India has not developed MIRV yet either. It's got a good name and Pakistan should definitely pursue it (when it can) but presently it is mere fiction.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

I don't think you realise your position in the pecking order on the defence forum. Now if you want to be kicked out like a useless chef in the canteen, keep up your condescending attitude.

Wow I am so afraid. So if someone kicks me out of this forum, I wouldnt have any jobs and be begging on the streets of Canada .

For China and the US, hypersonic missiles are at most 5 years away from deployment. China might actually deploy them before then. For Pakistan it could take a decade or so unless it’s already clandestinely working on one. No one was expecting Pakistan to test a MIRV but it did last year. For now, MIRV should be able to take out S-400. Especially when one considers the very short distance between India and Pakistan.

The presence of MIRV technology might actually limit India’s use of S-400 systems for the simple reason that if India were to use it, Pakistan will be forced to take them out. It creates a possible nuclear escalation because if Pakistan were to take out the S-400 with a MIRV Ababeel, there’s no way for India to know if these incoming missiles are nuclear armed. This creates a situation where India might employ nuclear weapons and escalate the conflict first. The simple fact is: Pakistan can’t allow the S-400 to hinder its operations and MIRV is a sure way of eliminating the threat. Meanwhile, India will be in a rough position of guessing whether the incoming MIRV warheads are nuclear armed or not or whether to retaliate. The induction of S-400 as some strategists have pointed out destabilizes Pakistan’s nuclear deterrence credibility and that should worry India.

What do you mean by if India has to use S400? Its a completely autonomous system. If it detects any threat, it will automatically fire missiles to neutralize that threat.
Second, Ababeel is being said as an MIRV and I will take it as face value. Right now the system isnt deployed. If I was right India took 4-5 tests to deploy Agni 5 and K15 SLBM. So I expect it to be deployed around 21-22. Russian and US MIRV's carry upto 24 bombs. Now that's something that's tough to counter. I believe S400 can counter upto 5 MIRV's at best. More resources is needed to know about it.
However the timeperiod for an missile is very less in the subcontinent and the chance of war is very low. MoD has clearly said this is aimed at China. China has gone too far in the arms race that India needs to maintain least minimum deterrance right now.

 

[Falcon26]

Wow I am so afraid. So if someone kicks me out of this forum, I wouldnt have any jobs and be begging on the streets of Canada .



What do you mean by if India has to use S400? Its a completely autonomous system. If it detects any threat, it will automatically fire missiles to neutralize that threat.
Second, Ababeel is being said as an MIRV and I will take it as face value. Right now the system isnt deployed. If I was right India took 4-5 tests to deploy Agni 5 and K15 SLBM. So I expect it to be deployed around 21-22. Russian and US MIRV's carry upto 24 bombs. Now that's something that's tough to counter. I believe S400 can counter upto 5 MIRV's at best. More resources is needed to know about it.
However the timeperiod for an missile is very less in the subcontinent and the chance of war is very low. MoD has clearly said this is aimed at China. China has gone too far in the arms race that India needs to maintain least minimum deterrance right now.

India won’t be getting the S-400 next year either. By the time the S-400 are in place, so will the Ababeel and I suspect by that time too Pakistan will be well on its way in testing hypersonic weapons. The balance between India and Pakistan is sort of like a cat and mouse game. One party gains advantage and the others works to undercut the advantage. This has been the case for decades now. Regardless of whether Indians think their weapons are China-specific, Pakistan will not take those assurances at face value. Just like India’s supposed No First Use policy which turned out to be a dud in the end. Pakistan will take due diligence

 

[CriticalThought]

Wow I am so afraid. So if someone kicks me out of this forum, I wouldnt have any jobs and be begging on the streets of Canada .

@WebMaster @The Eagle @Horus @Oscar Indian asking for preemptive, affirmative, retrogressive, psychoactive therapy.

 

[khanasifm]

https://missilethreat.csis.org/pakistan-unveils-raad-2-alcm/

 

[BRAVO_]

keeping in mind the S-400 ... i am expecting pakistan will now go for Starry sky 2
Once fully developed, its sheer speed would be capable of penetrating any anti-missile defence system currently available.

 

[Shabi1]

S400 detection range might be ~400km but its missile range is 120km, since this is max, actual will be lower. Israeli tactic for dealing with hostile SAMs is use decoys so that enemy reveals SAM and radar locations. Once SAM radars located they can be engaged with aggressor assets. A radar range of ~400km is possible only against high flying assets since low flying assets will be hidden till the last maybe 80-100km because of curvature of Earth. PAF could opt for same route and it has the missiles that can be fired in multiples while at a safe distance from these missiles, if multiple shots fired some will get through. One other option is a specialized variant of the CM-400AKG which is a hypersonic cruise missile and equips the JF-17, if accuracy can be narrowed down it will be able to defeat S-400 defenses to hit its radar.

 

[Falcon26]

S400 detection range might be ~400km but its missile range is 120km, since this is max, actual will be lower. Israeli tactic for dealing with hostile SAMs is use decoys so that enemy reveals SAM and radar locations. Once SAM radars located they can be engaged with aggressor assets. A radar range of ~400km is possible only against high flying assets since low flying assets will be hidden till the last maybe 80-100km because of curvature of Earth. PAF could opt for same route and it has the missiles that can be fired in multiples while at a safe distance from these missiles, if multiple shots fired some will get through. One other option is a specialized variant of the CM-400AKG which is a hypersonic cruise missile and equips the JF-17, if accuracy can be narrowed down it will be able to defeat S-400 defenses to hit its radar.

The range of the 40n6 missile is 400km. It’s the range of the missile.

 

[Shabi1]

The range of the 40n6 missile is 400km. It’s the range of the missile.

Thank you for the correction I confused it with S-300 export variant engagement range. I rechecked and yes S-400 can detect and engage at 400km. Will have to wait and see what countermeasures come up, even western analysts are baffled at the moment about it.

 

[Falcon26]

Thank you for the correction I confused it with S-300 export variant engagement range. I rechecked and yes S-400 can detect and engage at 400km. Will have to wait and see what countermeasures come up, even western analysts are baffled at the moment about it.

The Russians aren’t exporting the 40N6 missile but rather export variant the 40N6E which is not quite as advanced as the domestic one. This is what was sold to India and China

 

[CriticalThought]

The Russians aren’t exporting the 40N6 missile but rather export variant the 40N6E which is not quite as advanced as the domestic one. This is what was sold to India and China

Do you have a reference for that information?

 

[HariPrasad]

Saturation doctrine weapon can only be killed by saturation and asymmetric attack. The precision doctrine fails here as the SAM system is designed to tackle all likely scenarios used by the west and its Proxy states like Pakistan.

S400 has a solution: A networked Mesh with Drones that are able to DRFM the SR signal in real time and create targets like the MALD. S400 operator, if engages, loses important weapons. If does not engage, then has to deal with immense traffic on screen of actual flying aircraft and false targets that can allow a package to get through. However, i don't see S400 as the real threat to PAF aircraft but Spyder SAM system, which will have to force Pakistan to fly low and do pop up attacks with SOWs and REKs.
Coming back to S400, a set of 10-20 MALD type high speed drones with smart EW packages should do the job, create a lot of nice traffic and incoming ABMs rendering a S400 incapable to do anything else, or "engage" all the targets or the decoys (which would be flying like fighters or cruise missiles), letting go of precious rounds. As it engages, it is bright and loud and can be seen by a dead ESM receiver on any remote aircraft. If the battery chooses not to engage, it loses. If it choses to engage, it loses. As the battery re-loads, it is taken out. End of S400 chronicles.

The idea is good but the modern bmd like a 400 has the capability to differentiate between real target and decoy. Our last pdv test was aimed at that and it did perfectly well. The best way to cripple s 400 is to send numbers of high speed cruise missile towards it radar simultaneously and wish for some good result. Probably india will fire numbers of BRAHMOS in chinese S400.
To shootdown .S400 , you need high technology missile and good luck.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

First of all do we have to counter every dam thing?????? We never had numbers but now we already lost tech edge so why not we accept this???????? lol
Now seriously on topic. Best ways are

1. Send 2 spy satellites just to monitor Indian ABMs.....
2. Increase the range of Ghaznavi Missile to 500 km , give them vehicles just like Babur .
3. Build more Babur
4. Build hypersonic Babur (brahmoos ka jawab kub ka dew hai)
5. Upgrade Raad And increase range and efficiency.

Above all combine can do what we want to do...… S-400 is very good , best system but if we launch above missiles at S-400 in numbers two things can(will) happen .

1. S-400 will stop all of them in air (but still lose missiles) , good for us.
2. If S-400 misses 1 missile , that too will result in S-400 loss .

Other Indian ABMs are not that good and advance they will not be any problem (threat) for our (above) Missiles attack ….