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How secular, really, is India?

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Ethnic French are generally non-religious. They probably equate religion with superstition...hence their attitude. Infact, one gets the feeling that French are afraid of overly religious people. They are afraid that religious people will make decisions based on faith rather than logic...and find it difficult to trust them.

The type of secularism that is best for a nation depends on how religious the people are. Indians tend to be very religious, so the "believe and do whatever you want to within limits" philosophy is the best for it.

Well, only yesterday you were hell-bent to prove that India was secular! I am glad that you had the courage to accept the truth rather make up vague statements to support your claims and try to prove that you are an unfeeling fanatic who wants only to prove his point no matter what the facts presented to him are. If India was secular muslims would feel loyal to India rather than think of themselves as alag-salag... more than half my family is from India and they feel totally discontented with the majorities treatment as are many other muslims and cristians who are even thinking of Pakistan as a safe-haven and escape from the oppression. A simple search on google can proove what I am saying!

In both our nations we have people who are trying to make their nations secular and end voilence against minorities. If the people from the majorities do not let their egos come in the way and admit their problems and try to correct them our future will be bright and minorities will be integrated into the system and will think of themselves as the members and citizens of a nation!
 
Well, only yesterday you were hell-bent to prove that India was secular! I am glad that you had the courage to accept the truth rather make up vague statements to support your claims and try to prove that you are an unfeeling fanatic who wants only to prove his point no matter what the facts presented to him are. If India was secular muslims would feel loyal to India rather than think of themselves as alag-salag... more than half my family is from India and they feel totally discontented with the majorities treatment as are many other muslims and cristians who are even thinking of Pakistan as a safe-haven and escape from the oppression. A simple search on google can proove what I am saying!

Woah! India is secular by law and striving to be secular in practice. Call me a fanatic or whatever, I'm not changing that statement.

In both our nations we have people who are trying to make their nations secular and end voilence against minorities. If the people from the majorities do not let their egos come in the way and admit their problems and try to correct them our future will be bright and minorities will be integrated into the system and will think of themselves as the members and citizens of a nation!

Of course.....you are right!!

But ending violence against minorities isn't called secularism. I am forced to repeat...please understand what secularism is first. Secularism is the total separation of religion and state by law. If you don't have that....you are not secular.
 
People should admit the truth and move on. India isn't a secular state, but is striving to become one.

The best i can put it, and i am sure others will agree.

That is your opinion and indeed a view worth note.

It is like stating the US is not a Democracy, but striving to be one.

The underlining principle is secularism. However, nothing in the world is perfect. There are aberrations and there will be. Such aberrations also creep up in totalitarian regimes too inspite of their draconian laws and surveillance. If, with all apparatus of governance, surveilling the population, they are not perfect in implementing their ways, then how can one expect democracies to be perfect?

But such imperfection should not lead to the conclusion that the whole system has failed. Democracies, unlike totalitarian regimes, have the resilience to spring back into its original form.
 
Take the sugar coating away and at the bottom you would find that India is not secular as it claims to be.

To be sure, there is, at least, some sugar coating.

Too much of bitter pills can be observed around the world.
 
:what: :hitwall: Tell me something? Does it actually insult you when someone says anything good about you? Do you start swearing when your girlfriend or wife says that you look very nice or hot today or when a begger says you are a nice and helpful person for giving him money??? And do you start praising a person who swears at you and your family? I dunno if Indians react the opposite way they feel? Well you should learn something from bollywood and listen to your heart! You do no justice to those who have suffered at your nations extremely "secular" hands!

Is that what you want to be known as? Fine, if it pleases you I will call you a fanatic!

:crazy:

Well we see the meanings differently! I do not believe in the meaning set out by the dictionary as the smaller the minority actually is the more the law will be based on religion! Its an almost understood fact in any democracy!!!

Er? Are you referring to civil laws like marriage and inheritance? Cause they are the only ones decided on the basis of religious beliefs. Rest is secular law applying to everyone.

By the way...I don't see Pakistan having any special laws for Hindus and Christians and Sikhs. For them its allah's ways or the highway!!
Indian secularism bends over backwards to please muslims, by making special laws for them.

I believe secularism is about what monority communities think of themselves in the nation-state. I believe it is or is meant to be about how all religious community groups think of the Nation and of the treatment that they recieve in the respective countries they are citizens of! Secularism is when all religious groups feel they are treated well in my eyes. That would be a fair view of what secularism is supposed to be... What matters most in a secular nation is what the people of all religions think of their country and the treatment and attitude towards them of the ruling group!

Rite.....so its like this huh...you need an apple, but all you have is a grape. Your solution is very simple. Start calling the grape an apple!! Voila!! Problem solved!!:yahoo:
 
:crazy:



Er? Are you referring to civil laws like marriage and inheritance? Cause they are the only ones decided on the basis of religious beliefs. Rest is secular law applying to everyone.

By the way...I don't see Pakistan having any special laws for Hindus and Christians and Sikhs. For them its allah's ways or the highway!!
Indian secularism bends over backwards to please muslims, by making special laws for them.



Rite.....so its like this huh...you need an apple, but all you have is a grape. Your solution is very simple. Start calling the grape an apple!! Voila!! Problem solved!!:yahoo:

I give up! You remind me of the troll that comes back everytime its burried into the ground... Fine, whatever you say! Okay whatever pleases you! Wjhats the point in talking to a wall?

In India there are 13% muslims so it makes sense making some special laws for them. You would'nt have any such laws if you had even less than 7%. It all depends on what minorities say and think about your country and all the muslims in India I know do not think muslims are treated equally! Man i really don't have the energy to just keep repeating what I say!

I must admit that after so many posts from you... you truly are Gandhi! Your greatness cannot be doubted and the messages of peace you bring... amazing really! We should learn so much from our "peace-loving neighbors"! I think you should rule India. Gandhi is reborn!
 
Woah! India is secular by law and striving to be secular in practice. Call me a fanatic or whatever, I'm not changing that statement

I agree too.

However the mainstream struggle is largely flawed. In India appeasement is largely the banner for secularism. Which does nothing. It gives the majority an excuse not to be secular and keeps the minority griping over the tyranny of the majority.

It's true India has the right wording on the law and IS striving for it... But it has sadly shot off onto a tangent when it comes to actually walking their talk.
 
People should admit the truth and move on. India isn't a secular state, but is striving to become one.

The best i can put it, and i am sure others will agree.

India aint a perfect scular state. But then can you show me something perfect?
 
I agree too.

However the mainstream struggle is largely flawed. In India appeasement is largely the banner for secularism. Which does nothing. It gives the majority an excuse not to be secular and keeps the minority griping over the tyranny of the majority.

It's true India has the right wording on the law and IS striving for it... But it has sadly shot off onto a tangent when it comes to actually walking their talk.

Not quite so in its totality.

While you are right that appeasement is the main issue that skews the machinery, what is worth considering is that India is a Democracy and politics is a career and a means to livelihood and no longer a selfless service to the nation. Therefore, being in Parliament is a mode to ensure the sanctity and continuous growth of the family, home and hearth.

And to be in Parliament, one requires vote.

Therefore, to garner votes at the hustings as a Party, so as to be able to run the govt and ensuring the plum for their Party, one has to appeal to all the lobbies with their singular and even preposterous demand. There starts the appeasement politics.

That is where the fallacy lies.

The citizens are a fine lot, but the machinations is by the the intrigues of politics so as to keep the population within the grip of votes.
 
Therefore, to garner votes at the hustings as a Party, so as to be able to run the govt and ensuring the plum for their Party, one has to appeal to all the lobbies with their singular and even preposterous demand. There starts the appeasement politics.

That is where the fallacy lies.

The citizens are a fine lot, but the machinations is by the the intrigues of politics so as to keep the population within the grip of votes.

If that is so, how is it that the same system in the US works so much better? Even the US doesn't have the stringent checks and balances that the Indian constitution has.

The problem ultimately lies with the citizens. Don't blame the politicians. After all, aren't they citizens too?

IMO, one of the most important reasons India is still together is because of our constitution.
It is truly a great text.

There is one very important law that India needs: CAPS ON ELECTION SPENDING!!
 
Does it work in the US?

Or is it made to appear through the media and other grandstanding that it works.

Heard of the scams, scandals and the lobbies buying them off?

Heard of Cheney and Halliburton and Enron?

Seen their Congressional hearings where they start with pious thanking each other for the great opportunity etc and then lie through their teeth?

The US as a country is great, but their politicians are as big thugs as any other.

Do you forget how Bush ensured his win in the first Presidential elections? That was skulduggery and not democracy!

They, however, don't go head over heels at appeasement.
 
Compass Direct News : INDIA - HINDU EXTREMISTS PLAN ASSAULTS IN KARNATAKA STATE
INDIA: HINDU EXTREMISTS PLAN ASSAULTS IN KARNATAKA STATE

Increasing attacks prompt protest in Bangalore; pastor in “grave” danger.
MUMBAI, India, September 21 (Compass Direct News) – Christians will hold a rally in Karnataka’s capital, Bangalore, tomorrow to protest a growing number of Hindu extremists attacks in the state and planned assaults on church meetings in Mysore district and other areas. “The Global Council of Indian Christians [GCIC] is in possession of concrete evidence of a conspiracy of the Hindu extremists allegedly belonging to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh [RSS] and the Bajrang Dal, who plan to launch a serial attack against Christians in HD Kotte and different parts of Mysore,” organization president Dr. Sajan K. George told Compass. He said that pastor Yeravasan Kalla Suresh of Ebenezer Full Gospel Church in HD Kotte is in “grave” danger. Two Bangalore-based extremists have been holding meetings in different parts of Mysore, George said, indoctrinating young people in hateful propaganda. “The anti-Christian attacks are alarmingly increasing day by day,” George said. “There have been 70 reported cases of attacks against Christians in the last 18 months.”
 
Indeed very unpleasant face of secular India.

Christians : A Faith under Assault in Secular India - Mainstream Weekly

Christians : A Faith under Assault in Secular India
by Vidya Bhushan Rawat

Christians from all over India recently gathered in the Capital to protest against the Hindutva assault on their faiths in different parts of the country. On May 29, 2007, when they all assembled at Jantar Mantar seeking the government’s intervention to protect their institutions and people, it was a reminder to all of us that in a plural society, every one needs to appreciate the contribution of linguistic and religious minorities in its development. The gathering of Christians was, therefore, not seen in isolation and had support from all those who believe that the best bet for India’s survival is cohesiveness of different ethnic, religious, secular groups. In the past few months, the goons of the Hindutva forces have targeted the community and their faith leaders in various North Indian States, particularly Rajasthan, Himachal Pradesh, Orissa, Chhattisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Punjab and Gujarat. States like Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh, where the Christian population is abysmally low, are introducing special laws to prohibit conversion. Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand have already enacted laws prohibiting conversion. It is these States where extra-constitutional groups of the Hindutva brigade have taken it on themselves to do not only moral policing over people’s behaviour but also convert the tribals and Dalits back to the brahmanical fold. With Hindutva devotees at the seats of power, the goons are having a free day to kill anyone at their will. The assaults on Christian institutions have wider implications. The freedom of the gangs of Hindutva has become agony for all peace loving people including the minorities. We must also understand that minorities suffer from certain dilemmas and such assaults isolate them further and strengthen the theocratic leadership in the community. Moreover, the assault on Muslims and Christians is deliberate to suppress the internal contradictions within the Varna system. With UP gone out of their hand, the Sangh Parivar would re-launch its assault on the Muslims and Christians so that the assertion of Dalits, adivasis and backward classes is diverted against the ‘enemies’ and Brahmins and brahmindom have an unchallenged supremacy in the broader Hindu Samaj.

In many of these States the Bharatiya Janata Party, the political wing of Hindutva’s discriminating and destructive ideology, is in power. Much before they slaughtered Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, it was the Christians, their churches and their educational institutions, which were targeted by the lumpen Hindutva organisations. The unaccountability of the Hindutva forces and their various offshoots emerges from the open encouragement and support from the ruling parties in these States. It is not only outrageous but also unconstitutional that the State governments run by the Bharatiya Janata Party behave conspicuously and indulge in double-speak justifying these assaults in the name of intrusion of foreign culture and threat to India’s unity.

Look, what happened in Gujarat recently where the Kolis were on the street seeking justice. Narendra Modi never loses sight of targeting the Muslims and Christians who, he fears, are proselytising the tribals by throwing money at them. Absolutely farcical Mr Modi, Gujarati Banias and Brahmins have enough money to buy up as much as the evangelical groups, so please ask them to go into the villages, sit with the Dalits and tribals, share their agonies and pains. But we know it well that that is impossible in brahmanical Gujarat; citizens of the State use multiculturalism in the West to reap its benefits but the same people become Hindu chauvinists when the issue of multiculturalism crops up in their own State. In another way, Gujarat’s psyche has become totally brahmanised and a mere change of Narendra Modi would not work. An assertion of Dalits, Adivasis and backward communities (Gujarat’s backwards are Hinduised), for their political rights, in coalition with Muslims and Christians, would pave the way for throwing up a challenge against the current Hindutva culture prevailing in the State.
.............

And it continues... here Christians : A Faith under Assault in Secular India - Mainstream Weekly
 
World Sikh News - Indian court now wants Geeta as national scripture
Indian court now wants Geeta as national scripture
Written by Ashok Sharma
Wednesday, September 12, 2007
Allahabad: In a nation which is largely ruun as a Hindu country with little regard to the minorities and the deprived sections, off and on the chinks in the intellectual armour deployed to keep this state of affairs intact show up. Now, the Allahabad High Court has said 'Bhagwadgita' is a national 'Dharma Shastra' of India and it was the duty of the state to recognise the text as 'rashtriya dharma.’ It is the duty of every Indian citizen under article 51-A of the constitution to follow dharma propounded by ‘Bhagwadgita’, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, the ruling said. The ruling came from a judge just four days before he was to retire. Significantly, this same judge Justice S.N Srivastava had a few months earlier ruled that the Muslims in UP cannot be treated as a minority community. That ruling was stayed by a Division Bench the very next day after an uproar in the country but not a word was said to the judge.
This time, giving the ruling on a writ petition of one S.R Mukherjee, Srivastava said as India has recognised national flag, national bird, national anthem and national flower, the holy text may also be considered as national ‘dharma shastra’. The writ petition was by Gopal Thakur Mandir of Varanasi.

Answer to the subject question is that Hindustan is a two faced country it propagate it self as secular but its attitude towards minorities is no less than Nazis.
 
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