How good are the SSG's

[Iceman]

ok ppl ... let us stop the blame game .. as to who did this all .....
the only point to be kept in perspective is that ..... It was a really tough time for the country... the issue however raised many questions that require deliberation.
1. Is the govt to be blamed? The outright answer of those who oppose the Musharaf would "Absolutely" and of those who favour him ... "Not At All"
The answer lies somewhere in the middle of it all ... the govt is to be blamed for not have taken concrete steps right at the outset to prevent this outrageous event ..... but how they dealt with the entire thing after things reached the point of no return is absolutely in line with what any responsible govt would do .... I fail to understand y we keep referring to those outlaws as students and innocents who have been slain by the govt ..... I am sure you all must have seen clips of boys, openly brandishing weapons in broad day light right in the heart of the capital ..... the govt showed such a restrain and negotiations, went on for days and days before the final showdown ... but i guess once you lose grip of reality and start living in a euphoria of absolute ideas, you dont want to come to term with facts.
it is easier for anyone to sit here and comment, but that is luxury those who do not afford who are faced with this ordeal ....
let there be absolutely no doubt that the wrath of govt was brought on to the people of Lal Masjid by no one else but the Lal Masjidians themselves I can sit here and reason with anyone on the issue ....
Please give some credit to the govt for being able to get rid of the menace.

I ask u all some very simple question and please reply with utmost honesty
1. How many of you would like to live in a locality, where there is mosque and seemingly illiterate and irrational occupants of that Mosque brandish automatic weapons?
2. How many of you would like to live in a locality, where a illiterate Mulla stops you in the middle of the road and asks you to keep a beard or strict action would be taken against you?
3. How would you like to live in a place, where anyone who has a beard walks around with the authority of telling you how to live?
4. How would you like to live in a place, where you have makeshift bunkers around the corners of every road .. pointing right at you ... whenever you pass by?
5. How about, living in a place where the Mosquians erect barbed wire fences where ever they wish to and tell you not to use a specific route only because they think that blowing a horn or the noise of the traffic destroys the sanctity of the mosque?
6. Or would you like to live in a place where your business of CD shop is burnt down, only because the LORDS do not deem it Islamic?
7. How would you react if i come to you house and tell you to ask your womenfolk to wear BURQA otherwise I would not allow them to come outside the house?
8. How about i walk into your house on day ,,, bringing with me my female accomplices as human shields and take control of the entire place, telling you that "since your house is adjacent to the mosque, therefore it is part of it. U can go to hell, i am taking charge?


If you all think that i am just making it up, trust me ... that is exactly what was going on in that part of Islamabad ..... and more was in the pipeline, if something had not been done?

Just because we dont like Musharaf, does not legitimize the acts of the Lal Masjidians... just because we are against the regime, does not mean that people carrying out the most outrageous acts of lawlessness are innocent.
Be impartial and just think about.....
are you ready to live in a place like that...... if this factor had not been nipped in the bud, therewould have been thousands of Lal Masjids in Pakistan,,,, right where you live ... where i live .... the question being, are you ready to live like that or would you rather be free and make your choices i life, rather than the choices being chosen for you

People of Lal Masjid, got every bit of what they deserved...... I am sorry it had to end like that ... but there was absolutely no other way ... if you think there was ... the house is open .....

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi interceptor,

Do you really believe that there is a night fighting ssg and then there is a day fighting ssg---so accordingly---when the sun rises the night fighting ssg may go to sleep and when the sun starts setting the night fighting ssg takes over---

Guy---I don't have a lot of hair left on my head---please don't make me tear them out.

No other special forces group anywhere in the world has seen an action at such a large scale----such a large number of radicals entrenched with weapons, and ready to kill---machine gun nest in the minaret---weapons and student radicals enmasse---a preacher taking orders from outside bosses---he chose death and got his wish.

You think it is child play to pick up the arms against the govt and get away with it---the govt may let you get away---it will give you as much leeway at their discretion---but then don't get to believe that the freedom that you had was your right---it was given and then it was taken away after due warning when they became a liability---.

That is the biggest problem that some of my countrymen have in understanding the relationship between america, taliban and Bin Laden---they were fine till the al qaeda and Taliban became a liability---when the association becomes a liability---the umbilical cord is cut off---even a mother has a right to cut off the connection to her child after its birth---the govt cut off its connection with the mullah---just like the americans cut off the relation with the taliban---.

 

[Iceman]

Mastan my friend .. you are talking about things that are not understood by the people of our country ..... we are obsessed with the ideas of IDEALISM and want to remain the THEKEDAARS of Islam all around world ....
it is like Aitezaz Ehsan .... dude you have won you case ... you are lawyer .. get a hike now ..... dont be the thekedaar of Mr Justice for the rest of his life
just a thought ..

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This discussion has started to take a differrent direction. The lal masjid problem or the problem in swat that we are looking at---why young people are so discontent with the government---why are they taking the law into their own hands---.

Gen Musharraf being a good person that he is, had been extremely weak in enforcing the rule of the law in the country---gang rapes are common, gang robberies are common, deadly street crimes are rampant, there is lack of security for the individual---even the general admitted in his book that he had a tough time seeing someone punished for the crime and stopped the punishment---now please don't get me wrong---I have been a great fan of Musharraf---but that statement in his book---disqualified him to be the ruler / leader of an islamic republic or a leader of any respectable law abiding law enforcing state---. If you ever hear someone question him about law and order situation, he has a very poor reply---says that the police have to do this they have to do that--he doesnot understand that it is him who has to enforce and designate his subordinates to enfroce the law---the tragedy was that he also had the likes of Pervez Ilahi etc to work with, in punjab---.

If Amin Fahim had taken that job in 2002, the things would have been different---even if Imran Khan had taken the job---we would not have seen this day---but both these people are shamelessly tooting their horn---but when they were called to step upto the plate---both had their excuses---both had their reasons to chicken out. Musharraf was left with the leftovers---so do I blame him all the way----no---but to some/most extent.

In case of Lal masjid---the ministers should have never gotten invovled in the negotiations after they saw the mullah turn down down all the offers and advice from all the other mullahs---even the imam of ka'aba was truned down---at that time Ch Shujaat and co should have realized that it was a trap to enitce them into the cob-web---once inside---they were toast---they signed their death warrants that day---ie political death---there should have been put a black out on the tv channels---but the tv channels were openly trying to do their negotiations---the mullah cherished all the attention that he got---one screw up by the govt after the other---till the wave became a sunami and when it hit the shores---the public opinion, it smashed the govt into kingdom come---.

The negotiation of lal masjid had entered into a no win situation---and then the Ch Shujaat and co get involved---they sign the docs---go to the president and agree with him---the pakistan's arse got saved by the judge who made the announcement on the public system that people who had warrants will be arrested---the mullah said we are not coming out---if pakistan would have signed and let some of the terrorists walk away---they would have done something against the UN law against providing safe passage to known terrorists---they were so close to being hit with major sanctions---.

On top of that---the mullah of the mosque has a working cell phone on which he is talking to everyone whom he choses to---the media is enticing and exciting the crowd on live coverage---.

In the u s and other countries, there are anti trust laws---news media companies cannot own all forms of news outlets by one owner---case in point---dawn---geotv---jang group etc---who owns these news outlets---how much investment does the ppp and pml qhave in them---. Even Ch Shujaat was asked that question one time---he stated that they were thinking about it but then thought it was ok to let one owner have multiple outlets of news. This guy single handedly changed the history of pakistan.

Musharraf had good intentions---but a bad bad team.

Enjoy the song----

 

[Iceman]

cue taken and song enjoyed

 

[blain2]

Guys,

"How and why" of the LM brigade should be discussed in a separate thread and not in one related to the SSG.

Thanks

 

[Mujahid]

That news about the use of artillery is a total non sense and a big good joke...

 

[air_commando]

What do all of u think of a commandol? and who has given you the right to raise your fingers on them. all those who r just quoting Lal Masjid issue must not forget that SSG qualified commandos r the best asset of Pakistan. They r guarding the most secret and extremely important placesof Pakistan including all the nuclear installations. Please think that they have passed through such a training that even soldiers of other arms can not imagine. THINK POSITIELY PLEASE. It hurts them when they listen to such views.

 

[smt]

doesnt anyone think that the ssg mortality rate is quite high? i just read that in afghanistan on a total of 16 seals have been killed, and 11 of them were killed becuz their helicopter was shot down.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

doesnt anyone think that the ssg mortality rate is quite high? i just read that in afghanistan on a total of 16 seals have been killed, and 11 of them were killed becuz their helicopter was shot down.

pakistani SSGs have to rely on just the equpment they have got while the american SFs have all type of support from air to land and even from navy!
and by the way.. the figures that you have come up with for US SFs is nowhere close to actual..
its not 16 but more like in 100s..

 

[Keysersoze]

pakistani SSGs have to rely on just the equpment they have got while the american SFs have all type of support from air to land and even from navy!
and by the way.. the figures that you have come up with for US SFs is nowhere close to actual..
its not 16 but more like in 100s..

Actually you are wrong

Here is a list of the 491 Americans killed in Afghan

iCasualties: Operation Enduring Freedom

Now the obvious point to make is if there were hundreds as you claim. they would be listed here. If they are so top secret that their names have not been released then the next question is.....how do YOU know about it?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Actually you are wrong

Here is a list of the 491 Americans killed in Afghan

iCasualties: Operation Enduring Freedom

Now the obvious point to make is if there were hundreds as you claim. they would be listed here. If they are so top secret that their names have not been released then the next question is.....how do YOU know about it?

the US never gives the exact number of death tool, they have tendency to hide the real facts from its public.
so one could assume that 16 SF death could be way less. though i may be wrong in saying 100s death tool but still very close to 200?
but here is a bit of news...

(AFP) -- US special forces, whose superman image has created an aura in invulnerability around them, have unexpectedly disclosed heavy casualties - 175 killed, wounded or missing - in their worldwide hunt for Osama bin Laden and his terror associates.
Addressing a congressional panel today, Deputy Assistant Defence Secretary Marshall Billingslea said the figure had amassed since the beginning of a concerted post-September 11 counter-terrorism drive aimed at bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.

"To date, there have been 137 SOF wounded, 91 of whom sustained injuries during combat," Billingslea told the House Subcommittee on Terrorism, Unconventional Threats and Capabilities.

 

[Keysersoze]

the US never gives the exact number of death tool, they have tendency to hide the real facts from its public.
so one could assume that 16 SF death could be way less. though i may be wrong in saying 100s death tool but still very close to 200?
but here is a bit of news...

(AFP) -- US special forces, whose superman image has created an aura in invulnerability around them, have unexpectedly disclosed heavy casualties - 175 killed, wounded or missing - in their worldwide hunt for Osama bin Laden and his terror associates.
Addressing a congressional panel today, Deputy Assistant Defence Secretary Marshall Billingslea said the figure had amassed since the beginning of a concerted post-September 11 counter-terrorism drive aimed at bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.

"To date, there have been 137 SOF wounded, 91 of whom sustained injuries during combat," Billingslea told the House Subcommittee on Terrorism, Unconventional Threats and Capabilities.

175 over 12 years of combat....... (5 years in Iraq and 7 in Afghanistan) equals 14.5 a year. And since the total includes 137 wounded (most of whom were injured in non combat injuries) that means 38 killed over 12 years, 3 a year in WARTIME.

The idea that they would be able to hide deaths is ridiculous. Families would ask questions politicians would use it for political gain colleagues would be angry at direspect toward dead colleagues.

 

[Mujahid]

Chill out brothers and check this comedy clip of 4 Man Show

4b-_lS2wjAY[/media] - Lal Masjid

 

[Myth_buster_1]

175 over 12 years of combat....... (5 years in Iraq and 7 in Afghanistan) equals 14.5 a year. And since the total includes 137 wounded (most of whom were injured in non combat injuries) that means 38 killed over 12 years, 3 a year in WARTIME.

The idea that they would be able to hide deaths is ridiculous. Families would ask questions politicians would use it for political gain colleagues would be angry at direspect toward dead colleagues.

this debate can go off topic.. my point still being, that originally claimed by one of the members that only 16 navy seals have been killed so far, is because of their limited numbers in Afghanistan type of warfare as their primary role are for coastal areas type of warfare.
but over all 175~ SF casualty claimed in the article is over the 7 years of war on terrorisim, including or excluding iraq war . not 12? come on teach me the math, how is it 12 years?