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How good are the SSG's

Hi,

Pakistani SSG are very good---does that make you happy. They are as good as the weakest link in any chain.

Lal Masjid was a very successful operation under the given circumstances---the only problem over there was that, there was too much political involvement in the millitary part of the operation.

All the special forces have their good days and bad days. There is always a hype created behind any special services group to make them seem invincible. SAS and gsg9 have had days that they would rather not remember and have people forget them as well.

That isnt why performed so poorly it was due to the circumstances of the operation, I read that the SSG which were brought in were specialist in fighting in night time condition, the operation of Lal Masjid took initially place in the morning causing such disastrous result.
 
That isnt why performed so poorly it was due to the circumstances of the operation, I read that the SSG which were brought in were specialist in fighting in night time condition, the operation of Lal Masjid took initially place in the morning causing such disastrous result.

What disastrous results? 10 KIA have to be looked in the context of the overall operation and its scope.

Can we compare the LM operation with anything conducted by any of the other specialized CT teams of the first world? The Russians went into the Beslan school, you know the results. The Americans (Waco maybe, we know the conclusion there), French, British have never had an operation so large and complex to deal with. I have already stated what the IA had to go through and how many good troops they lost during Op. Bluestar.

The bottom line is that an amazing SSG performance has been overshadowed by the political climate. Had circumstances been different and had public support remained in place for the operation, this undertaking by the SSG would have been glamorized all over by the press.

The SSG officers who themselves were involved in this operation felt betrayed as they went above and beyond the call of duty and succeeded (at a cost) and the nation did not appreciate their sacrifices. Tactically, the SSG did as well as any other first rate CT team would have done here.
 
What disastrous results? 10 KIA have to be looked in the context of the overall operation and its scope.

Can we compare the LM operation with anything conducted by any of the other specialized CT teams of the first world? The Russians went into the Beslan school, you know the results. The Americans (Waco maybe, we know the conclusion there), French, British have never had an operation so large and complex to deal with. I have already stated what the IA had to go through and how many good troops they lost during Op. Bluestar.

The bottom line is that an amazing SSG performance has been overshadowed by the political climate. Had circumstances been different and had public support remained in place for the operation, this undertaking by the SSG would have been glamorized all over by the press.

The SSG officers who themselves were involved in this operation felt betrayed as they went above and beyond the call of duty and succeeded (at a cost) and the nation did not appreciate their sacrifices. Tactically, the SSG did as well as any other first rate CT team would have done here.

couldnt agree with you more and the un-due vassillating by the GoP did not help much. in CT ops one relies on quick decisions and reactions.
 
Special Services Group of Pakistan Army .... i happen to have interacted with a lot of their type .. amazing guys .. loads of muscles ..... lots of brains .....really motivated ... ready to jump into any kind of fire that the country asks them to ... you have to give it to them on this account .. .. The basic problem with SSG in the past have been the lack of understanding of our top brass on their Employment .. i have a first hand experience of the issue ... that whenever a situation is impossible .. ask the SSG guys to do it please ... i mean .... have a heart . fine they are specialist ... but they are still humans .... they do get wounded and they have their limits ... our CGS branch treats them as UNIVERSAL SOLDIERS ..... and hats of to the guys ... who practically have not learnt to say no ... they simply go for anything ....
very well equipped and very well trained for sure ..... arguably one of the best special forces in the world ...
 
What disastrous results? 10 KIA have to be looked in the context of the overall operation and its scope.

Can we compare the LM operation with anything conducted by any of the other specialized CT teams of the first world? The Russians went into the Beslan school, you know the results. The Americans (Waco maybe, we know the conclusion there), French, British have never had an operation so large and complex to deal with. I have already stated what the IA had to go through and how many good troops they lost during Op. Bluestar.

The bottom line is that an amazing SSG performance has been overshadowed by the political climate. Had circumstances been different and had public support remained in place for the operation, this undertaking by the SSG would have been glamorized all over by the press.

The SSG officers who themselves were involved in this operation felt betrayed as they went above and beyond the call of duty and succeeded (at a cost) and the nation did not appreciate their sacrifices. Tactically, the SSG did as well as any other first rate CT team would have done here.

Yes Sir Blian your right there maybe few numbers of casualties of the SSG but as heard by the news and eye witnesses there were scores of casualties of students the object of the SSG is to attack the insurgents take them down and protect the People of Pakistan whereas that did not go very well, I hope you see where the desaster took place it was in the large number of casualties that were of young students.
 
Yes Sir Blian your right there maybe few numbers of casualties of the SSG but as heard by the news and eye witnesses there were scores of casualties of students the object of the SSG is to attack the insurgents take them down and protect the People of Pakistan whereas that did not go very well, I hope you see where the desaster took place it was in the large number of casualties that were of young students.

There was a lareg group of women and younger students that was released quite soon after the operation started. Could you provide sources about which "students" you are talking about? How can it be confirmed that they were not armed and fighting the soldiers?
 
Yes Sir Blian your right there maybe few numbers of casualties of the SSG but as heard by the news and eye witnesses there were scores of casualties of students the object of the SSG is to attack the insurgents take them down and protect the People of Pakistan whereas that did not go very well, I hope you see where the desaster took place it was in the large number of casualties that were of young students.

There were no eye witness so take this out. The news agencies you are talking about are the same one who said Iraq have neculear weapons & Osama is in Peshawar/Queta They only want to make money by making the conditions more interesting & unfortunately it goes against the interest of our nation.



Regards
Champ
 
Special Services Group of Pakistan Army .... i happen to have interacted with a lot of their type .. amazing guys .. loads of muscles ..... lots of brains .....really motivated ... ready to jump into any kind of fire that the country asks them to ... you have to give it to them on this account .. .. The basic problem with SSG in the past have been the lack of understanding of our top brass on their Employment .. i have a first hand experience of the issue ... that whenever a situation is impossible .. ask the SSG guys to do it please ... i mean .... have a heart . fine they are specialist ... but they are still humans .... they do get wounded and they have their limits ... our CGS branch treats them as UNIVERSAL SOLDIERS ..... and hats of to the guys ... who practically have not learnt to say no ... they simply go for anything ....
very well equipped and very well trained for sure ..... arguably one of the best special forces in the world ...
Bravo !! Nice post !ceman .


Regards
Champ
 
There was a lareg group of women and younger students that was released quite soon after the operation started. Could you provide sources about which "students" you are talking about? How can it be confirmed that they were not armed and fighting the soldiers?

Musharraf lauds Lal Masjid massacre
By Keith Jones
13 July 2007
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In a nationally televised address Thursday evening, Pakistan’s US-backed dictator, General Pervez Musharraf, defended the Pakistani military’s storming of the Lal Masjid (Red Mosque), threatened military action against any madrassa (Islamic school) “used for extremism,” and promised to strengthen paramilitary and police forces in the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP).

The general feigned regret at the large number who perished in the 36-hour battle that ended Wednesday afternoon with the military wresting control of the Lal Masjid, a mosque-school complex in central Islamabad. “Unfortunately,” declared Musharraf, “we have been up against our own people ... They had strayed from the right path and become susceptible to terrorism.”

Among the many things Musharraf omitted to say was that he personally scotched a deal Monday night to peacefully end the military’s siege of the Lal Masjid and that the mosque and its leaders had long been part of a nexus linking the Pakistani military-intelligence apparatus to various Islamicist militia groups.

The reality is Musharraf and his military regime staged a massacre. They deployed twelve thousand troops, including many of Pakistan’s elite units, in the heavily-populated center of Islamabad, then ordered an attack on the Lal Masjid that included artillery barrages, even though they knew that hundreds of unarmed people, including women and children, likely remained inside.

Through this bloodletting, Musharraf hoped to achieve two objectives: to please the Bush administration, which has been pressing Islamabad to intensify military action against pro-Taliban elements inside Pakistan even at the cost of antagonizing the country’s tribal and Pashtun minorities; and, second, to divert attention from, and increase his options in dealing with, the mounting opposition to his attempt to stage-manage his “re-election” as president.

Less than two months ago, more than forty people were killed in Karachi when the pro-Musharraf MQM with the connivance of security forces mounted armed attacks on persons gathering to welcome “suspended” Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry.

Just how many people died in the storming of the Lal Masjid complex remains an unanswered question close to two days after the military announced it had seized the mosque.

Pakistani authorities claim to have found 75 bodies in the Lal Masjid and put the total number of dead in the eight-day siege at around 108, including ten military personnel. Eighty-five of the 108 deaths reputedly came during Tuesday’s and Wednesday’s storming of the Lal Masjid.

But the real death toll is likely much larger. The Dawn reported Thursday that an unnamed source who had visited the Lal Masjid and the adjacent Jamia Hafsa seminary for women shortly after the army takeover said the floors were littered with corpses wrapped in white shrouds: “I could not count them but they must be in the hundreds.”

The Dawn also observed that “a promised media trip to the site was put off a day, fuelling speculation that the government was buying time to remove some telltale signs.”

Ever since the military launched its action to seize the mosque, reporters have been barred from the three closest hospitals, so as prevent them from gauging the number of dead and wounded.
Click link to read full
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/****-j13.shtml

Also try typing in Lal Masjid Massacre on google and you would find around 47000 links to it. This question was also asked aired on BBC, Sky, Al-JZ and CNN and other news channels, the legitimacy of the attack was challenged in the Supreme Court where CJ said he will have an inquiry about it a Suo-moto, however, Musharraf never allow that to happen.
 
Click link to read full
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/****-j13.shtml

Also try typing in Lal Masjid Massacre on google and you would find around 47000 links to it. This question was also asked aired on BBC, Sky, Al-JZ and CNN and other news channels, the legitimacy of the attack was challenged in the Supreme Court where CJ said he will have an inquiry about it a Suo-moto, however, Musharraf never allow that to happen.

What nonsense?
Would you care to open the dictionary and check out the meanings of massacre or had it been changed?
There was a battle but no massacre, those released were alive is a confirmation of that.
There were warnings before the security used eventual force.
Yes, Aitzaz (# 2 traitor of Pakistan) received orders from his masters to internationalize the issue, which he did as a pet.
 
Interceptor:
then ordered an attack on the Lal Masjid that included artillery barrages,

Definition of Artillery: Large-caliber weapons, such as cannon, howitzers, and missile launchers, that are operated by crews.

Now you honestly mean to tell me that the PA used artillery on a building in the middle of Islamabad? Do we even have artillery with GPS guided shells to ensure the pin point accuracy required to attack a building in the middle of a heavily populated city?

Come on interceptor, just on the basis of this point alone you can tell the article is laughably untrue. An "artillery barrage" would have leveled the buildings.

But the real death toll is likely much larger. The Dawn reported Thursday that an unnamed source who had visited the Lal Masjid and the adjacent Jamia Hafsa seminary for women shortly after the army takeover said the floors were littered with corpses wrapped in white shrouds: “I could not count them but they must be in the hundreds.”

I understand that as Pakistanis we require a very low threshold of evidence before we start believing in conspiracy theories, but seriously - one "unknown source" who by his/her own admission did not count, but thought that there were "hundreds of corpses lying around". Seventy or eighty corpses lying around is a very large number by itself, and probably looked like a hundred to this guys overwhelmed senses. Have you ever wondered why eyewitness accounts after events tend to vary so much? They are not always reliable.

This article is nothing but bad speculation. The one point on which the LM Operation can be criticized is whether the last attempt by Chaudhry Shujaat should have been the final attempt at negotiating a solution, despite the hardships the people in the area were suffering from the prolonged military presence.
 
i personally dont trust the goverment anymore, they have no credibility. was there ever a list of people killed in the lal masjid incident? atleast i havnt seen it. thats how its done all across the globe, but for us, we here 10 different numbers in 10 diff. days, and wer fine with it. who cant comment on how the ssg performed in terms of protecting the inocent when there is no reliable information of who was killed except 8 soldiers and the ringleader himself?
 
Click link to read full
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/****-j13.shtml

Also try typing in Lal Masjid Massacre on google and you would find around 47000 links to it. This question was also asked aired on BBC, Sky, Al-JZ and CNN and other news channels, the legitimacy of the attack was challenged in the Supreme Court where CJ said he will have an inquiry about it a Suo-moto, however, Musharraf never allow that to happen.

Massacre in what sense may I ask? Just because there is a certain group that considers it to be a massacre? I would easily expect to see everyone from Hizb-ur-Tahreer to the supporters of the Maulana brothers bashing the Army so whats new? As far as the western press is concerned, they simply don't know which way to go...one day its blasting the Army, the next the Mullahs and then Army again..

The government asks them (LM brigade) to surrender, they don't. They know fully well that when the state uses power against them, there would be loss of life..but at this time the motivation for them is to attain shaadat and ignite a country wide revolution. I heard the entire lectures of certain muftis in Pakistan and they laid the blame equally on the Maulvi brothers and their followers for challenging the writ of the state. If this same thing had happened in the land of Al-Islam (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), the Saudis would have pushed two divisions of National Guard into the location and they would have bulldozed the entire mosque on the pretext of stopping fitna by undermining the state authority within the land. Islamically, this is a greater problem than not stopping certain women of ill-repute running around.

So stupidly, the blame shifts on the Army and the SSG for the deaths. WELL CT OPERATIONS ARE NOT A JOKE!!!! You use force and that too in a manner so there is no more questioning of your authroity since you only want to go through this type of stuff once and not have to repeat it.

Your very best and most capable units are used and when you use them then its like a sledgehammer being applied to a nail. Don't expect for people who are holding out to be allowed to walk out with flowers in their hands especially when these guys kill the Battalion Commander and then 10 other SSG operatives in their "peaceful and Islamic" sit-in at the LM complex.

While I can buy the argument that this operation should have never taken place, but once the other side opens up with firearms and kills the law enforcers then they cease to be innocent students. The sooner we understand this, the quicker we will be to the solution.

The same bloody media a week before or even a day before the operation was lecturing the government over its inaction. When the action is taken then the whole nation cries over it. Its another hypocrisy of our citizens and reminds me of what transpired right around the Army operation in East Pakistan. The West Pakistani press was going nuts calling for action against our very own citizens in East Pakistan and when action was finally taken then all the blame was dumped on the Army.

The government and especially the Army have never been good at PR. The Nation states and assumes things about the Army and it goes unchallenged. Ask the friends and peers of the officers and men that we lost at LM to see how good of a Muslim they were..all the guys were "paanch waqt kay namazi" type including the officers. If anything, its the Maulvi brothers responsible for not only the shaadat of all the students, but also the SSG officers and men and other law enforcers.
 
The reality is Musharraf and his military regime staged a massacre. They deployed twelve thousand troops, including many of Pakistan’s elite units, in the heavily-populated center of Islamabad, then ordered an attack on the Lal Masjid that included artillery barrages, even though they knew that hundreds of unarmed people, including women and children, likely remained inside.

Keith Jones is a bloody liar!

No Artillery was used..guaranteed!!!! All of the children and women were vacated (although some did remain but not because of the Army, rather because they wanted to stay in) and unfortunately we did lose some sisters, however the numbers as claimed by the other side is nowhere close to truth. In this day and age, you cannot hide 200-900 people overnight and escape scrutiny. At most 150 people died and this total includes the law enforcers. I regret the loss of even one person however the other side has to bear responsibility for this loss just as much as the government.

The mullah party has to be held accountable just as much as the government.
 
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