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How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

You cannot reduce the friction on the leading surfaces. They will generate heat no matter what you do, unless you develop special materials. And that heat is detected. It's got nothing to do with what the rocket breathes.

Yes detected but at what range ?? and what would you do with the detection ??.... how will you know the path of the missile ??

Leaving aside "Incredible Indian" satellites and coming back to reality, the fact is that the technology exists to detect this kind of extreme heat -- and when something like that is moving at mach anything, there's only one conclusion.

For countries with the requisite satellite technology, detecting BrahMos is a piece of cake.

What extreme heat are you talking about ??.... the exhaust of a fighter plane would generate more heat in a AB mode.... is that extreme for you ??.... mention/post your source for the peice of cake part.... or explain how a satellite can track a cruise missile.


Chinese are smart with money. They have a track record of catching up with western technology.



All we need is a linkup to Chinese satellite coverage of India.

What track record ??.... prove it....
 
Cake would be a harsh word, intercepting any missile is no easy task as the physics and the initiative is always on the side of the aggressor. Supersonic missiles have their own pros and cons, one of its biggest cons is its high RCS. The US did develop a supersonic missile but the verdict was that it was too expensive and its high RCS gives the enemy enough time to deploy counter measures.

That's where you are making you biggest mistake. You are ignoring both the key hard facts.

a) The sophistication that so called US enemy possess.
b) The distance that these so-called supersonic missiles need to travel.

why are you ignoring the fact the sub-sonic cruise missiles are there for quite sometime. It is quite obvious that their counters are far more mature then the counters for supersonic one's..Having said that it all depends upon the threat perception...Don't you guy say that distance b/w India and Pakistan is so less that India's ABM system will not get enough time to defend against a BM??? Now why that argument(proximity) goes into thin air when we talk about cruise missile???Look at the end of the day everything has counter measures...Brahmos is not invincible and if anyone is saying that then he/she is wrong...but it is avery potent weapon and will prove to be nemesis for the adversary...have no doubts about it...

I fail to see how, the faster the missile is travelling the more IR signature its releasing. No country in the world has the technology to reduce the IR emissions for a supersonic cruise missile, smart skin concept is all speculative and has not been fully developed.

What i mean is that RCS is very subjective. If my radar is more sophisticated then a so called smaller RCS is no longer smaller...You seem to be very sure about the bolded part...so i will leave it there...

Dont get me wrong, the Brahmos is an amazing weapon and definitely adds more muscle to the IA. But Brahmos will definitely be challenged if the adversary has a well developed early warning radar system. India is lucky in that sense that not many nations in the world have a highly sophisticated early warning radar systems in place.

I am not sure if we care about world nations. Our potential adversary are Pakistan and China....Good to hear you acknowledge Brahmos is amazing weapon. Look detection is one aspect of countering a missile. Let's not undermine the other aspects...


Its always good to be prepared than not be prepared at all. If India fields a successful operational ABM system than it simply changes the balance of power in South Asia, Pakistan will never accept this and that is why its taking additional steps to increase the lethality of its missile program. I have my doubts about the Indian ABM because the Indians have started only researching about it recently and its missile program is quite primitive compared to those nations whom are fielding ABM systems that are operational, but ones with flaws.

What you mean by recent??? Look let's not ignore some key facts here...

a) We have 5 successful interception. It is a big hard fact and cannot/shouldn't be ignored
b) Technology has improved considerably. There is no reason for a system to take same amount of time that it might have taken in the initial stages.

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

It's an arms race so, of course, the technological ante keeps getting upped. But the point is that for every better mouse, there is a mousetrap.

Is that so??? For every better mouse there is not always a mousetrap. However there is no deny the fact that counters will come/being researched. It doesn't matter if there is a mousetrap...What matter's is that do you possess one??? I believe that is the crux of our discussion...
 
How is this stealthy

Babur-10.jpgd7f81587-5c89-4b40-b2cc-a4a336df6a97Larger.jpg


and this not

brahmos.jpg

You still are not getting what i am trying to state, you cannot compare a subsonic missile to a supersonic missile. A supersonic missile comprises its maneuverability and stealth for speed.

The temperature would be higher than 50 degrees.
The missile performs rolls to evenly distribute temperature on its skin.
Even on that note how would the Infrared sensors detect an incoming cruise missile which flies low and in quiet heated surrounding of lower altitudes ?

Clearly since you haven't done your research and are just B.Sing, i wont waste my time my crafting a huge response. I will cheat a bit and post a very beautiful analysis from another website, hope it open up your eyes because my friend you are living in a lie if you think a missile that big and travelling at that speed could have a low IR signature.

"The problems with running very high speed bodies through dense air are manifest. The main aerodynamic issue we found was with a form of pressure drag that created buffeting on the airframe. Basically what happens is the kinetic heating on the missile body causes the air passing over it (the aerodynamic boundary layer - as opposed to the atmospheric boundary layer between sea-surface and air) to expand rapidly. This expansive air intersects with the airflow over this missile and induces drag.

The denser or, rather, wetter the air you fly though the greater this drag is as the greater potential energy transfer from airframe to air. Furthermore the quicker you try to go through that air the higher the thermal loading on the airframe and the more intense the pressure drag. You can calculate the average effects from this condition but those equations were ones I last studied over 14 years ago and are a bit vague now.

There are solutions to this, of course, heavy metals in the missile fuselage to act as a heat sink being the most obvious but then that adds weight and changes your size, propulsion, performance, range and payload calculus. The most obvious, and the one seemingly adopted by the Moskit design team was to fly slightly higher and slower to reduce the loading.

As to the issue of subsonic warhead damage look at the bows photo of the USS Stark again. That hole in the superstructure and the heavy list to port was nothing to do with a fire - that is damage from the impact!. That damage is sufficient to send the ship back to port. If the prevailing conditions are kind it might even make it!. Even if the ship does make it back to be repaired its out of action for duration of most modern conflicts. I ask you again how much damage do you think you need to do to a ship?.

You say Brahmos has a low RCS design. From a look at the airframe I dont see it personally, at least if you compare it to a real low-RCS design like NSM, but even if it were the case you cannot propose that Brahmos has Low Observability characteristics. Not when you are talking of such a large missile travelling at such a high velocity. Even basic IRST's like Radamec's 2000 series can detect tactical fastjets at 20km plus, Thales's new SIRIUS sensor has, allegedly, the capability to detect TBM's at ranges in the hundreds of kilometres. A mach2.8 missile travelling at altitude will beacon on IRST at 40km even if, and IMO this is very unlikely, the radar doesnt catch it. The basic physics of it is that a vehicle cannot expend the kind of energy that M2.8 requires without radiating some of it out into the environment somewhere in some form."


How can a heat emitting body be detected by a microwave emitter ??
What kind of Physics applies here please do tell.... or does the laws of Physics changes for a Pakistani Radar ?

You are telling me that the Brahmos wont be picked up by an AWAC that is equipped with an AESA radar :blink:?

Is it just me or is your nationalistic pride taking over the better of your judgement. I wont spoon feed you everything, do some freakin research and learn how an AESA tracks a cruise missile especially one that is huge and is travelling at speed of almost Mach 3. Supersonic CM's reflected radar waves have more detectable doppler frequency shift because of its speed, its easier to pick up its signals due to the background clutter such as the radar waves that are reflected.


And how would the fighter jets intercept such a missile in 1st place which flies at around Mach 3.... I am yet to know if SR-71 and Mig 25 foxbats were ever intercepted by any fighter jets at their top speeds of Mach 3.... even though they flew higher and were easy to detect from long ranges.... besides being a lot bigger.

Have you ever heard of something called head on interception? A missile emitting IR of that size will be a magnet for a heat seeking missile, electro optic sensors can track and cue a missile for successful interceptions.

I have no idea why are you guys getting so defensive, Brahmos is a wonderful weapon but not a weapon made by God himself. You guys need to drop your ego and drop this mindset of 'Every Indian weapon is invincible'.
 
why are you ignoring the fact the sub-sonic cruise missiles are there for quite sometime. It is quite obvious that their counters are far more mature then the counters for supersonic one's..

A supersonic missile uses its sheer speed to skid through the enemy defences and a subsonic cruise missile uses its maneuverability and low observability to bypass the enemy defences.

These two missiles are completely different beasts and different set of counter measures are needed to tame them. To counter a supersonic missile, the missile needs to be detected quickly and complete operational readiness is required to deploy the effective counter measures in time. To counter a subsonic missile, an excellent radar network is needed that can look down and discriminate the missile from other clutters such as mountains or trees.

Having said that it all depends upon the threat perception...Don't you guy say that distance b/w India and Pakistan is so less that India's ABM system will not get enough time to defend against a BM??? Now why that argument(proximity) goes into thin air when we talk about cruise missile???

It depends what stage of the conflict we are in? If we are in a full scale shooting than countering every Brahmos is going to be difficult as your enemy's assets would be divided up. In a skirmish, the probability of countering Brahmos is higher as your enemy can focus more resources on countering down the incoming missiles.

Look at the end of the day everything has counter measures...Brahmos is not invincible and if anyone is saying that then he/she is wrong...but it is avery potent weapon and will prove to be nemesis for the adversary...have no doubts about it...

Why dont you tell your country men this whom are advocating that Brahmos is invincible, its so stealthy that is will bypass your enemy's radars. You were asking me in another thread why my hostility towards Indian members have increased its exactly because of this, sheer blind patriotism has clouded their judgement to even think rationally. I am not questioning the fact that Brahmos is not a potent weapon, it is no doubt about it but making it out to be a missile sent by God himself is what is ticking me off.

What i mean is that RCS is very subjective. If my radar is more sophisticated then a so called smaller RCS is no longer smaller...You seem to be very sure about the bolded part...so i will leave it there...

Both your enemies field very sophisticated radar networks. I still cannot believe that you guys purchased AWACS, it gave Pakistan the perfect excuse to purchase AWACS of its own. If Pakistan did not have any AWACS in its inventory, these Brahmos and your low flying Mirage 2000's would be very difficult to pick up.

I am not sure if we care about world nations. Our potential adversary are Pakistan and China....Good to hear you acknowledge Brahmos is amazing weapon. Look detection is one aspect of countering a missile. Let's not undermine the other aspects...

Indeed, but detection is the most important step in countering the Brahmos.

What you mean by recent??? Look let's not ignore some key facts here...

a) We have 5 successful interception. It is a big hard fact and cannot/shouldn't be ignored
b) Technology has improved considerably. There is no reason for a system to take same amount of time that it might have taken in the initial stages.


The US has been researching ABM systems for decades now and they invested hundreds of billions of dollars, an amount that India can only dream of investing. They still dont have a fully functional ABM system, during the Gulf War Scud missiles which are very primitive in terms of design managed to get past the Patriot Missile defences. Your ABM systems are not close to being as advance as the Americans and your enemies field much more sophisticated missiles than the Iraqi scuds.
 
You still are not getting what i am trying to state, you cannot compare a subsonic missile to a supersonic missile. A supersonic missile comprises its maneuverability and stealth for speed.

The Brahmos test firing once again has established “its mountain warfare capability with upgraded software and a new advanced guidance scheme incorporating large-scale maneuvers at multiple points and a steep dive from high altitude with precision strike capability,” a statement says.

While the Block II launch met the army’s requirement for the land attack version with advanced seeker software with target discriminating capabilities, the Block III version was “better in its maneuvering capability,” an army official tells AVIATION WEEK. “This is a significant step because maneuvering in supersonic mode is a difficult task. Now it is multipoint maneuvering ... and a major deviation in its path.”

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2010/12/02/awx_12_02_2010_p0-273623.xml&channel=defense

Clearly since you haven't done your research and are just B.Sing, i wont waste my time my crafting a huge response. I will cheat a bit and post a very beautiful analysis from another website, hope it open up your eyes because my friend you are living in a lie if you think a missile that big and travelling at that speed could have a low IR signature.

"The problems with running very high speed bodies through dense air are manifest. The main aerodynamic issue we found was with a form of pressure drag that created buffeting on the airframe. Basically what happens is the kinetic heating on the missile body causes the air passing over it (the aerodynamic boundary layer - as opposed to the atmospheric boundary layer between sea-surface and air) to expand rapidly. This expansive air intersects with the airflow over this missile and induces drag.

The denser or, rather, wetter the air you fly though the greater this drag is as the greater potential energy transfer from airframe to air. Furthermore the quicker you try to go through that air the higher the thermal loading on the airframe and the more intense the pressure drag. You can calculate the average effects from this condition but those equations were ones I last studied over 14 years ago and are a bit vague now.

There are solutions to this, of course, heavy metals in the missile fuselage to act as a heat sink being the most obvious but then that adds weight and changes your size, propulsion, performance, range and payload calculus. The most obvious, and the one seemingly adopted by the Moskit design team was to fly slightly higher and slower to reduce the loading.

As to the issue of subsonic warhead damage look at the bows photo of the USS Stark again. That hole in the superstructure and the heavy list to port was nothing to do with a fire - that is damage from the impact!. That damage is sufficient to send the ship back to port. If the prevailing conditions are kind it might even make it!. Even if the ship does make it back to be repaired its out of action for duration of most modern conflicts. I ask you again how much damage do you think you need to do to a ship?.

You say Brahmos has a low RCS design. From a look at the airframe I dont see it personally, at least if you compare it to a real low-RCS design like NSM, but even if it were the case you cannot propose that Brahmos has Low Observability characteristics. Not when you are talking of such a large missile travelling at such a high velocity. Even basic IRST's like Radamec's 2000 series can detect tactical fastjets at 20km plus, Thales's new SIRIUS sensor has, allegedly, the capability to detect TBM's at ranges in the hundreds of kilometres. A mach2.8 missile travelling at altitude will beacon on IRST at 40km even if, and IMO this is very unlikely, the radar doesnt catch it. The basic physics of it is that a vehicle cannot expend the kind of energy that M2.8 requires without radiating some of it out into the environment somewhere in some form."

Name the poster and the defense forum from where you have copied those lines No Brahmos does not fly at 40-30 km it flies below 10 km go and ask that poster how to detect a ramjet cruise missile of the size of brahmos at hundreds of kilometers..... and about its size... the missile only 1.4 m longer and 8 cm thicker than your babur CM.... wonder how big that becomes ??

You are telling me that the Brahmos wont be picked up by an AWAC that is equipped with an AESA radar :blink:?

Don't put your words in others mouth.....

Is it just me or is your nationalistic pride taking over the better of your judgement. I wont spoon feed you everything, do some freakin research and learn how an AESA tracks a cruise missile especially one that is huge and is travelling at speed of almost Mach 3. Supersonic CM's reflected radar waves have more detectable doppler frequency shift because of its speed, its easier to pick up its signals due to the background clutter such as the radar waves that are reflected.

Here is the freaking research you did..... :rofl:
What advantage in terms of time and range does a shift in dropper frequency provides when the medium being used is an EMW ??
How is it easier ?? and what background clutters ??
Atleast copy the things correctly :lol:

Have you ever heard of something called head on interception? A missile emitting IR of that size will be a magnet for a heat seeking missile, electro optic sensors can track and cue a missile for successful interceptions.

How would you perform a head on interception when the missile is maneuvering and you don't know its path.... yes that would be a magnet for a sea sparrow but only for small ranges before the missile evades it or out runs it...

I have no idea why are you guys getting so defensive, Brahmos is a wonderful weapon but not a weapon made by God himself. You guys need to drop your ego and drop this mindset of 'Every Indian weapon is invincible'.

How are we getting defensive ??
Never did any Indian here said that brahmos is invisible...

You still did'nt answer the question.... How would your Radar detect a heat emmiting body ??...... I never asked what AWACS you had.
 
Is that so??? For every better mouse there is not always a mousetrap. However there is no deny the fact that counters will come/being researched.

The mousetrap for BrahMos existed before BrahMos itself. Effectively, it was obsolete the day it was commissioned.
I already posted the link to the Raytheon website for ESSM.

It doesn't matter if there is a mousetrap...What matter's is that do you possess one??? I believe that is the crux of our discussion...

Yes, Pakistan doesn't have the technology.

Yes detected but at what range ?? and what would you do with the detection ??.... how will you know the path of the missile ??



What extreme heat are you talking about ??.... the exhaust of a fighter plane would generate more heat in a AB mode.... is that extreme for you ??.... mention/post your source for the peice of cake part.... or explain how a satellite can track a cruise missile.

There was a whole STARTFOR article explaining it, but the content is now password protected.
Here's a description from a non-Pakistani how BrahMos can be countered.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53380-brahmos-high.html#post783777

What track record ??.... prove it....

If you don't believe Chinese military technology is closing ground with the west, there's not much to talk about. There have been enough threads about that subject.
 
If you don't believe Chinese military technology is closing ground with the west, there's not much to talk about. There have been enough threads about that subject.

Sir i already arrived at that conclusion when he asked me 'How would an AESA equipped radar detect the super duper Brahmos'. If he is asking such a stupid question like that, there is no reason for me to argue with a fanboy.
 
Some info about Brahmos that might help

Besides its supersonic speed, which will
make its interception extremely difficult, the BrahMos incorporates stealth
technology and many experts consider the BrahMos a “state-of-the-art”cruise
missile.112 Particularly troubling to the United States is the reported stated intent of
Russia and India to export the Brahmos to Third World countries which could
provide these countries with an asymmetric advantage113 over the United States and
our allies who could be hard pressed to effectively defend against this missile.114

This is as per a US Congress report of 2004

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl30427.pdf
 
Sir i already arrived at that conclusion when he asked me 'How would an AESA equipped radar detect the super duper Brahmos'. If he is asking such a stupid question like that, there is no reason for me to argue with a fanboy.

When did I or any of the Indian posters asked about your AWACS detecting Brahmos.... Quote the lines for every one to see.... else stop putting your words in others mouth....

You are yet to answer..... How does your microwave emitter or Radar detect a heat emitting body ??
.... If you don't have the answer then admit it.... rather than putting your words in others mouth.... and running away hiding you face....
 
There was a whole STARTFOR article explaining it, but the content is now password protected.
Here's a description from a non-Pakistani how BrahMos can be countered.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53380-brahmos-high.html#post783777

Explain it yourself.... How can you track a moving cruise missile with a satellite ??
Else provide your source for that claim.... don't run away like your pal...
And I saw the whole thread.... and the replies to that poster aswell....
 
currently with our ABM we can already intercept all Pakistani SRBM's as for MRBM's we have shown that we can intercept Pakistan's Ghauri 1 and Shaheen 1 missiles..... in 2009 a PAD missile intercepted a modified dual stage liquid and solid fueled Prithvi missile with a range of 1,500km its trajectory was designed to mimic the No-Dong and M-11 ballistic missiles it was successfully intercepted...
now we have to move on to next stage and intercept the 3,500km class of missiles we should use one of our Agni 3 or 2 missiles to help improve our ABM.
 
Some info about Brahmos that might help



This is as per a US Congress report of 2004

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl30427.pdf

Yes, Congress trying to justify military funding. If you read the military reports, including statfor, they are confident about handling the BrahMos.

Explain it yourself.... How can you track a moving cruise missile with a satellite ??
Else provide your source for that claim.... don't run away like your pal...
And I saw the whole thread.... and the replies to that poster aswell....

Nobody's running away. You refuse to accept reality and want to believe in the BrahMos. Same reaction as Indians in that other thread.

How many natural phenomena do you know on this planet that have a big as$ heat signature and that move at mach 3? According to you, Indian satellites can see people sitting in their backyards, but other countries, which can already track ballistic missiles, can't track such a huge heat signature moving at an unnatural speed -- especially over a cold ocean.
 
When did I or any of the Indian posters asked about your AWACS detecting Brahmos.... Quote the lines for every one to see.... else stop putting your words in others mouth....

You are yet to answer..... How does your microwave emitter or Radar detect a heat emitting body ??
.... If you don't have the answer then admit it.... rather than putting your words in others mouth.... and running away hiding you face....

I am not putting words in your mouth, what else would you mean with a stupid question like that. Being patriotic is one thing but being an idiot is another, i honestly cannot believe that you think PAF wont catch Brahmos on its radar. Now, i am not going to baby you as you want me to, here are two excellent links, read them and comprehend it. Put some damn effort in instead of finding shortcuts.

Infrared Countermeasures Systems
ERIEYE AEW&C / S100B Argus

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------

How many natural phenomena do you know on this planet that have a big as$ heat signature and that move at mach 3? According to you, Indian satellites can see people sitting in their backyards, but other countries, which can already track ballistic missiles, can't track such a huge heat signature moving at an unnatural speed -- especially over a cold ocean.

Sir forget the satellites, there is no way in hell the Super Duper Brahmos can escape the detection range of our AWACS and our Ground Radars. Our AWACS can look over the horizon deep inside the Indian territory, Brahmos range is 280km and we have that range covered quite easily.
 

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