HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[Manticore]

ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.-- kifir modified the front area e a ' canard like' structure.. viggen also developoed it further, so here the evolution began--and now we see new delta winged fighters e different canard shapes as well as there placement

now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me

 

[Black Widow]

ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.-- kifir modified the front area e a ' canard like' structure.. viggen also developoed it further, so here the evolution began--and now we see new delta winged fighters e different canard shapes as well as there placement

now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me

So what exactly you want to say??? As I have posted earlier (in one of my post) there are very few wing design are for Aircrafts, and most of them are used earlier.. B2 uses the Horton Design.. so what???? who told DRDO innovated cranked delta design???

We are saying that we prefer crank delta design over simple delta design.. no where we mentioned that we discover this design..

I will suggest you to watch video on Mirage.. (Discovery Wings) I will narrate the story in couple of line... "delta design was not that effective , so Mirage changed its design, The Mirage F1 was one of its non delta design plane.... but after FBW came into picture, the drawback of Delta design became bliss for it... delta design keep the fighter plane more stable, which is not good for fighter planes.. With FBW it was easy to generate unstable aerodynamics... (RSS: reverse static stability)"

 

[Han Patriot]

No, next we will construct LUND ( Light Undersea Naval Dock ) off the vietnam coast which will seamlessly be used to rape your subs off hainan coast

I am so scared. Well, while you plan, will, shall, could, may and can build a LUND....LOL. We already COMPLETED 'civillian' ports in Gwadar, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. See the difference?

Explain to me how you are gonna rape our subs? Do you make your own subs? I mean not subs in development stage...an actual Indian made sub?

 

[ganimi kawa]

@ Antibody,

Thanks for giving me my 1000th thanks! I'll try to return the favor when you reach 999 (which will be real soon!)

ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.

What you have said in the Combat Aircraft Design thread is this,

lca still is based on a primitive tailess delta design , without many modifications, which first flew even before the 1940s!-- funny thing is, they call jf17 with dsi an old design!!!

ive posted 25+ fighters in this category starting from

primitive tailless delta- m2k/mirage3/5 , nammer, kifir[experimented with a small fixed canard type],cheetah, eygptian, lca , f102, f106

XF-92 [1945]


then compound delta [without seperate canards]mig21 prototypes, f16xl-, draken, f108


cranked delta- like f7pg

then viggen came up with a fixed canard +delta


latest fighters now have moveable canards- j10 etc

1. Tejas is a cranked delta and not simple tailless one as you have classified.

2. Compound or cranked delta were not mere cosmetic changes, they altered the performance of the deltas in a profound manner. ( No need for me to highlight the F-16 XL experience, I presume).

3. Assuming that addition of canards is the only way a delta can be called as advanced is a fallacy. If LCA can acheive the ASR without canards, then it is an achievement. e.g. NLCA with LEVCONS.

now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me

1. If you think that FBW has not made any difference to the performance of delta then..........

what about relaxed stability?

The introduction of FBW technology and relaxed stability allowed Dassault to take advantage the delta planform´s undeniable strong points whilst eliminating or at least minimising the weaknesses, such as a low sustained turn rate.

2. Just post the similarities between M2K and LCA, and we can discuss further.



In nutshell, there are lot of things in the LCA wing that make it relevant and not a "simple tailless delta" as you claim it to be, even without canards !

I will go into more details of the LCA wing design later on.

 

[Han Patriot]

The people whose names appear on aircraft types - Sukhoi, MiG, Mil, Antonov, Ilyushin, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, EADS - are known as systems integrators. They don't make planes in a factory where the nuts, bolts and composites are made; they call in assemblies, sub-assemblies and components from all over the world, subject to security and secrecy considerations, and put them together to a design. Sometimes, as in the case of the Russians, design and manufacture are separated, for greater integrity. Yes, the systems integrators and the designers, between them, retain the right to make changes in design and alterations and modifications, due to discoveries made during test flights, but this is the process.

Friend,

I was asking you a simple question. What components for the LCA were made indigenously? You don't have to give me grandfather story about Sukhoi not making bolts and nuts. The point is somewhere down the supply chain that bolt and nut is made in Russian isn't it? Comprehendo, amigo?

Tyres have been made in Dunlop Sahaganj from the 50s; the legendary Suranjan Das' son was a Dunlop employee supervising smooth supply of these to HAL from the 70s onwards. Avionics, with which I have personal involvement, has been indigenous from the 70s and 80s onwards; the brilliant account of the DARIN conversion by T K Sen is a gripping story by itself.

Again, do you have to go round and round telling the history of Indian aircraft tires? Those tires could have been used for Mig-21 or WWII British planes for all I care. Do you think those tires can be used interchangeably with a gen 4.5 super duper advanced aircraft? Just tell me are the landing systems made in India, prove it. Are those main mechanisms imported and assembled? I am somehow perplexed by this Indian talent of talking on and on without going to the point directly.

Composites were developed under the leadership of the technical genius Krishnadas Nair, whose lectures on composite technology drew packed audiences; his open lectures usually had a distinguished overseas delegation in attendance. The composite manufacturing effort was developed within HAL while he was Managing Director of the Bangalore Complex, well before his Chairmanship. Autocrat though he was, nothing should be subtracted from his technical contributions to the nation.

Packed audiences, distinguished 'overseas' delegation.... I have seen a lot of Indian resumes boasting in the same way. Another talent? If he is so damn good, why do you still need to pay millions for a foreign consultant? What is the level of composites technology in India?

According to this Indian link, India's first carbon fibre production was inaugurated in 2010.

MACHINIST - Kemrock Industries commissions Carbon Fibre Facility near Vadodara

Now check this link for China and think. We occupy 4.5% of the market share behind Japan, US.
Global and China Carbon Fiber Industry Report, 2009-2010 by ResearchInChina

OO btw, China has one of the most advanced nano carbon fiber research and results had already been PRODUCED.

http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid=14731.php

The landing gear and its anti-skid braking software was developed by HAL engineers working within the ADA/ADE; my successor as CEO in the avionics firm was lead programmer for the ABS software.

Okay prove please? Which portion of the algorithm is developed locally? Some foreign 'consultants' again? Or maybe you bought the software package, and developed an 'application' from it, much like what INFOSYS does with SAP.

I could go on and on, if not for the fact that we have gone into all this before. The crowning glory, however, was the writing of the flight control laws. It has led to a smooth, mellow flying machine which each and every one flying it has fallen in love with from the first flight onwards. Contrary to half-baked reports, the involvement of Lockheed-Martin was limited to intense technical discussions with a full team of Indian engineers, who started developing the control laws. They were locked out of their work-places literally at an hour's notice on the clamping of sanctions. All the work for the first version, which a member of the team says was slightly rough at the edges, typical for version 1.0 efforts, was left behind. The team went to work again from first principles, and the result is flying now. So much for Lockheed-Martin having built the control laws. For those who have read 'The Mythical Man-month', this illustrates the maxim that in a large software project, the first step is to make one to throw away.

Again, you don't have to go on and on. Don't beat around the bush. Just answer the question. You claim LCA is an indigenous aircraft, but why is Lockheed in the picture? Why do you pay them millions when your super duper talented engineers are peforming? You pay Lockheed to look at your engineers develop the super duper control system? If you can solve the problem, why the 'consultants'? Are you saying from even design stage to manufacturing, almost none is indigenous? Ooooo okay, the 'system engineering' a.k.a assemblying is indigenous!

There were failures. The worst was Kaveri, which was crippled by sanctions. Everything had been built around the supply of certain critical components. I am not sure that I should even talk about it. Another setback was the AESA radar development. And that was about it. For a ground-up effort, this was magnificent. Some tuppenny-ha'penny wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate should not cause such a storm of reaction unless we are ourselves actually ignorant about what happened. I am quite irritated at the slavish efforts still being made to try and convince those who have clearly set themselves up to have some fun at the expense of our more combustible members.

If it ain't working and not in operation. You can stop there. . I want to know what is produced and proof....simple as that....LOL

 

[Han Patriot]

Ganimi-ji,

Can be highlighted? or boosted? Hell, except for that lil' notch up in the wing, the whole plane looks exactly like a Mirage. Hell even the CONSULTANT WAS DASSAULT.

LOL. okay okay chill, the intakes were 'new' with 'input' from DASSAULT? So, you admit DASSAULT 'helped' you to design the plane? In that case, how can it be indigenous?

 

[SR 71 Blackbird]

I am so scared. Well, while you plan, will, shall, could, may and can build a LUND....LOL. We already COMPLETED 'civillian' ports in Gwadar, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. See the difference?

Explain to me how you are gonna rape our subs? Do you make your own subs? I mean not subs in development stage...an actual Indian made sub?

Why are you worried? You are a Bhutanese not a Chinese.By the way INS Shalki was made in India.

 

[Han Patriot]

ive said that tailess delta is an old design concieved in the 30s , operational by the 50s -- the basic design had undergone some changes-- like compound dellta, double delta, etc quite early.-- kifir modified the front area e a ' canard like' structure.. viggen also developoed it further, so here the evolution began--and now we see new delta winged fighters e different canard shapes as well as there placement

now i know most will say that compound tailess delta is the latest aviation innovation, or avionics/ fly by wire will come into play etc but i 'll maintain what ive said.... infact i see less resemblence of dsi jf17 e f-5 and mig21 as compared to lca and m2k--- again maybe its just me

Antibody,

You don't have to argue so much with our Indian bhais. Just look at the evolution of some modern gen 4 aircrafts,

DASSAULT
...............

Mirage 2K = delta
Rafale = Canards

EADS
.........
Eurofighter = Canards


SAAB
.........

Draken = Delta
Viggen = Canard
Gripen = Canard

Can we see a pattern here?

 

[Han Patriot]

Why are you worried? You are a Bhutanese not a Chinese.By the way INS Shalki was made in India.

I am Chinese but Bhutan is gonna be part of China in the Future, so it makes no difference. =)

Someone was laughing when I said China had one of the largest advance optical lens base after Japan, Germany and US. Well, check this link :

http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2002a/nr020520chinae.html

Olympus, Nikon, Zeiss, all have factories in China making camera lens. Domestic company like Seagull makes camera lens as OEM and supply lens to these MNCS. Do you know how big is the industrial base in China now? Imagine the engineers trained, the production workers, technicians & QC/QA? The facilities are state of the art.

 

[Ghoster]

I am Chinese but Bhutan is gonna be part of China in the Future, so it makes no difference. =)

and they say they are never expansionists

 

[kingdurgaking]

Again, you don't have to go on and on. Don't beat around the bush. Just answer the question. You claim LCA is an indigenous aircraft, but why is Lockheed in the picture? Why do you pay them millions when your super duper talented engineers are peforming? You pay Lockheed to look at your engineers develop the super duper control system? If you can solve the problem, why the 'consultants'? Are you saying from even design stage to manufacturing, almost none is indigenous? Ooooo okay, the 'system engineering' a.k.a assemblying is indigenous!

Simple question when you dont understand the simple logic.... you go to school still being your father is educated why?

 

[desimorty]

You don't have to argue so much with our Indian bhais. Just look at the evolution of some modern gen 4 aircrafts,

DASSAULT
...............

Mirage 2K = delta
Rafale = Canards

EADS
.........
Eurofighter = Canards


SAAB
.........

Draken = Delta
Viggen = Canard
Gripen = Canard

Can we see a pattern here?

f16 xl a more advanced wing design yet concieved with a higher payload, a cranked areo delta wing platform
f-22 conventional
f-35 conventional
t-50 conventional,
see the pattern.
your argument is mute
you have no scientific basis.
The lca projects consultant was dassualt, that time dassualt was working on the rafale and tampering with new delta designs. India concieved a cranked delta design, as seen in this thread, even did wind tunnel tests.
but the future for the lca tejas changed when in the early 90's the cranked delta design was tried on the f-16xl, one of the designers was indian.
the cranked delta was used in the US space shuttle as well.
it provided with key advantages,
lift greater than the conviental delta on mirage 2000 series.
unstable design, hence the tejas is "statically" unstable.
which means, even with out tails or canards, the lca is unstable and unable to fly with out fbw and computers. the entire wing design is creating drage upward.
as i have mentioned this is used in the space shuttle and f-16xl. this design allows for a delta design to achieve a higher aoa and greater lift as if it had a canards but still not the same because it will never and therefor it can not achieve the higher angle of attacks true canards provide but comes close with its own advantages in other areas.
this design allows for a greater wing area, thereby increasing lift and reducing wing loading. the lca is marketed as the lightest combat aircraft in the world.

Wing loading is a useful measure of the general maneuvering performance of an aircraft. Wings generate lift owing to the motion of air over the wing surface. Larger wings move more air, so an aircraft with a large wing area relative to its mass (i.e., low wing loading) will have more lift at any given speed. Therefore, an aircraft with lower wing loading will be able to take-off and land at a lower speed (or be able to take off with a greater load). It will also be able to turn faster.

its about effiecency, in short summary if you understand all this.
j-10 wing loading 335 kg/m^2
mig -29 = 442
gripen 283
typhoon 312
tejas=221
now the tejas has the lowest wing loading because it is small and has very large wing area relative to its size which is a plus and helps with lift, payload and most importantly takeoff and landing fuel consumpation.
it does not mean the tejas is the most agile in the air, that was not the goal, the goal was to make the aircraft atleast close in agility.
when the project was initiated, india already had access to bvr capable mirages and falcrums.
it was speculated that bvr would kill the dogfighter.
that to some extent is true.
but the real killer to high g turns was the arrival of helmet mounted sights with targeting. the tejas uses HMDS. its good enough.
there is a mantiance advantage to avoiding the canard or extra control surfraces as well, there would be less stress on the air frame etc... and less moving parts.
the other advantage is the reduced weight.
you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.
its not to say the tejas is manuavrable or the best dog fighter. it stands out in other areas as well.
RCS is reduced on the aircraft and one of the reasons being the lack of extra control surfaces.
If you want an arguement you may as well use the one i have enjoyed and is the least refutable.
because of the size of this aircraft, it has limited growth oppurtunities.
meaning, more will be added to the outside rather than in.
the gripen suffers from the same short fall.

 

[ganimi kawa]

f16 xl a more advanced wing design yet concieved with a higher payload, a cranked areo delta wing platform
f-22 conventional
f-35 conventional
t-50 conventional,
see the pattern.
your argument is mute
you have no scientific basis.
The lca projects consultant was dassualt, that time dassualt was working on the rafale and tampering with new delta designs. India concieved a cranked delta design, as seen in this thread, even did wind tunnel tests.
but the future for the lca tejas changed when in the early 90's the cranked delta design was tried on the f-16xl, one of the designers was indian.
the cranked delta was used in the US space shuttle as well.
it provided with key advantages,
lift greater than the conviental delta on mirage 2000 series.
unstable design, hence the tejas is "statically" unstable.
which means, even with out tails or canards, the lca is unstable and unable to fly with out fbw and computers. the entire wing design is creating drage upward.
as i have mentioned this is used in the space shuttle and f-16xl. this design allows for a delta design to achieve a higher aoa and greater lift as if it had a canards but still not the same because it will never and therefor it can not achieve the higher angle of attacks true canards provide but comes close with its own advantages in other areas.
this design allows for a greater wing area, thereby increasing lift and reducing wing loading. the lca is marketed as the lightest combat aircraft in the world.

its about effiecency, in short summary if you understand all this.
j-10 wing loading 335 kg/m^2
mig -29 = 442
gripen 283
typhoon 312
tejas=221
now the tejas has the lowest wing loading because it is small and has very large wing area relative to its size which is a plus and helps with lift, payload and most importantly takeoff and landing fuel consumpation.
it does not mean the tejas is the most agile in the air, that was not the goal, the goal was to make the aircraft atleast close in agility.
when the project was initiated, india already had access to bvr capable mirages and falcrums.
it was speculated that bvr would kill the dogfighter.
that to some extent is true.
but the real killer to high g turns was the arrival of helmet mounted sights with targeting. the tejas uses HMDS. its good enough.
there is a mantiance advantage to avoiding the canard or extra control surfraces as well, there would be less stress on the air frame etc... and less moving parts.
the other advantage is the reduced weight.
you might want to know that despite the nearly same capability the gripen a provides, its empty wieght is greater. the gripen has yet to recieve an onboard oxygen generator. the tejas already has these small bells and whistles.
its not to say the tejas is manuavrable or the best dog fighter. it stands out in other areas as well.
RCS is reduced on the aircraft and one of the reasons being the lack of extra control surfaces.
If you want an arguement you may as well use the one i have enjoyed and is the least refutable.
because of the size of this aircraft, it has limited growth oppurtunities.
meaning, more will be added to the outside rather than in.
the gripen suffers from the same short fall.

Very good post, but addressing it to a guy like han warrior is a waste! He's still stuck with faulty assumptions like LM helped ADA with LCA's FBW.


Also, do you have any source on the dassault support? I couldn't find any.

 

[John Doe]

Excellent discussion! Though it is pretty clear that this 'Han Warrior' who speaks Urdu is as Chinese as I am an Bulgarian

Which brings me to: Why are some pakistanis ashamed of their country? Why pretend to be something else?

 

[Pioneerfirst]

Excellent discussion! Though it is pretty clear that this 'Han Warrior' who speaks Urdu is as Chinese as I am an Bulgarian

Which brings me to: Why are some pakistanis ashamed of their country? Why pretend to be something else?

if someone likes any country then consider it personal feelings.Same as millions of Pakistanis and indian have foreign passport but still love their countries...