HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[Manindra]

Hey guy you have old information. 6.5 ton is a very old figure. A lot of weight is slashed there after. I have seen members mentioning it 5.8 tons in PDF. One member wrote that LSP 8 is 300 kg heavier than planned. Means 5.8 tons. Weight carrying capacity is function of aerodynamic as well as engine not alone aerodynamic as primary factor . Mk 2 is going to have refined aerodynamic as well as higher thrush engine. A lots of aerodynamic changes are made in MK 1 itself. You can see this from its maneuverability. It is now able to match Grippen in vertical turn. STR has improved a lot. I read some member citing that it is now as per ASR. Air intakes are widened which were actually planned in MK2. FOC MK1 will have 24 or 26 degree AOA. This will further improve performance. FOC is planned for 10 g turn and 15 g structural strength. MK 2 is going to be a master piece. New nosecone is planned to reduce drag etc...

Brother, are you live in lalaland. From where you got those figures. These types of figure only ADA dreams not in reality. From where you 5.8 ton weight figure. Official sources says its empty weight without fuel is 6500 kg which is current target not actual. MK2 aerodynamics not to be going miracle change because only 1 ton payload increased & not more effects on maneuverability. MKI AOA target is 24 degree not 26 degree.
Even 9g g performance could achieve in MK1 & postpone this parameter in MK2 & you say 10g
MK1 would have 8g & MK2 will be 9g performance.
LCA one of the main problem is drag issue which is not sorted out now completely.

For every claim you say I read, he write. Please provide authentic source for your claims.

My source

Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft | Official Website

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

 

[vsdave2302]

Brother, are you live in lalaland. From where you got those figures. These types of figure only ADA dreams not in reality. From where you 5.8 ton weight figure. Official sources says its empty weight without fuel is 6500 kg which is current target not actual. MK2 aerodynamics not to be going miracle change because only 1 ton payload increased & not more effects on maneuverability. MKI AOA target is 24 degree not 26 degree.
Even 9g g performance could achieve in MK1 & postpone this parameter in MK2 & you say 10g
MK1 would have 8g & MK2 will be 9g performance.
LCA one of the main problem is drag issue which is not sorted out now completely.

For every claim you say I read, he write. Please provide authentic source for your claims.




My source

Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft | Official Website

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

Brother let me explain my points one by one.

As you wrote in your previous post, HAL website shows maximum takeoff weight 13.5 T and weight carrying capacity 5.3 T. Now Pl subtract 5.3 T weapon load and 2.5 ton Fuel weight. It is 5.7 tons, the weight of the plane. This prove my point. How ever you can give me any authentic source to prove that LSP 8 weighs 6.5 ton, I am open to accept. Until than I would believe what HAL website says. Website you cite is Mum about the weight carrying capacity so we can not conclude the empty weight from Takeoff weight Like I did in case of DATA of HAL website. If ADA website says that it can carry 5.0 ton load, It will once again turned out to be 5.7 T empty weight.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/

Pl check post No 7744. or click above link. It shows empty weight 5450 KG. only.

I do not say that it will be a 10G aircraft. I said it will be tested for 10g in FOC. That they will certify it for a figure somewhere between 8 to 10 g. May be 8.5 or 9 g.

And yes you are right FOC parameter are 24 degree AOA but it has a potential to go upto 26 degree as I read some where in forum. I also read somewhere that with some artificial measure, AOA can be increased upto 36 degree. Sancho May give his expert comment on this.

You may be right so far as drag is concern. But a lots of performance improvement is observed in recent time. So we may reasonably assume that the drag issue is resolved to a great extent or some extent. They have planned drag reduction in MK2 also.

 

[vsdave2302]

Can Anybody explain the difference between the wing root I see in old PV (White color) as shown in AAD website and LSP? Wings in old lsp do not take a sharp dip near wing as it does in case of lsp.

Sancho and others Members Pl.

 

[Manindra]

Brother let me explain my points one by one.

As you wrote in your previous post, HAL website shows maximum takeoff weight 13.5 T and weight carrying capacity 5.3 T. Now Pl subtract 5.3 T weapon load and 2.5 ton Fuel weight. It is 5.7 tons, the weight of the plane. This prove my point. How ever you can give me any authentic source to prove that LSP 8 weighs 6.5 ton, I am open to accept. Until than I would believe what HAL website says. Website you cite is Mum about the weight carrying capacity so we can not conclude the empty weight from Takeoff weight Like I did in case of DATA of HAL website. If ADA website says that it can carry 5.0 ton load, It will once again turned out to be 5.7 T empty weight.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tejas/

Pl check post No 7744. or click above link. It shows empty weight 5450 KG. only.

I do not say that it will be a 10G aircraft. I said it will be tested for 10g in FOC. That they will certify it for a figure somewhere between 8 to 10 g. May be 8.5 or 9 g.

And yes you are right FOC parameter are 24 degree AOA but it has a potential to go upto 26 degree as I read some where in forum. I also read somewhere that with some artificial measure, AOA can be increased upto 36 degree. Sancho May give his expert comment on this.

You may be right so far as drag is concern. But a lots of performance improvement is observed in recent time. So we may reasonably assume that the drag issue is resolved to a great extent or some extent. They have planned drag reduction in MK2 also.

LCA official & ADA website shows its loaded weight is 9500 kg & Max. Takeoff weight is 13500 kg.
So, Payload = Loaded weight ( aircraft+internal fuel+pilot weight) - Maximum takeoff
Payload = 13500 - 9500 = 4000 kg
This is official figure.
Whom figure you would consider , developer or third party.

Drag issue not much rectify in MK2 so they overlapped this issue with higher thrust engine. So, there will be not increase in payload capability.

MK2 design is freezed which does not hint dramatic redesigning & ADA target is only 9g. Where you got 10g news.

I quoted authentic sources not some defence magzines & sites or read from somwhere.

 

[vsdave2302]

So 9500 KG less 2500 KG fuel weight = 7000 KG aircraft weight right? Now you believe that? So now do not tell it is 6.5 Tons say 7.0 tons.

HAL is equally authentic website and producing agency. If you do not want to believe, it is up to you.

Your problem is that you are not paying attention. I said it will be tested for 10g not certified for 10 g. Certification shall always be on conservative side. Pl check the following post on page no 492. It contains a link from HAL tender also. You can check bharat rakshak also.


Welcome to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited

Tender for development of hydraulic pump for LCA Tejas MK2.From the given documents they are looking for 10g stress capability.
Acceleration
• Operational g-level: 10 ’g’ in all 6 directions as per Sl. No. 16 a) of Annexure 1 of
Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
• Structural g-level: 1.5 times the ‘g’ value as indicated above as per Sl. No. 16 b) of
Annexure 1 of Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
Qualification methodology : Actual Test
excellent find by Indranilroy@BR.
2. HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-492.html#ixzz2a92I0rJr

Introduction

LCA Tejas Mk2 is being developed for use by the IAF and the IN. It will be powered by the more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engine and feature other upgrades.

Airframe Modifications

Minor modifications are being made to the LCA Tejas Mk1 airframe to accommodate the slightly larger engine. The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.

Pl read following. Aerodynamic Improvement is a part of MK2 features.

The dimensions of Mk2 will be as follows

Span : 8.20m
Length: 13.70m
Height: 4.52m

Upgrades


Besides a more powerful engine, Tejas Mk-2 will feature other improvements. Here is the complete list of planned upgrades

Higher Thrust Engine
Structural Weight Reduction
Aerodynamic Improvements
Upgrade of Flight Control Computer
Electronic Warfare Suite
Avionics Upgrade
In flight refuelling retractable probe
On board oxygen generation system
Increased fuel capacity.
Features

Supersonic at all altitudes
15km service altitude
Tailless compound delta wing
Composite structure
Improved performance
Improved maintainability
Improved Survivability
Digital Fly by wire
Fuel dump system
Multi mode radar

http://idp.justthe80.com/air-force-projects/fighters/tejas-mk2


work on LSP6 starts, severe aerodynamic testing planned (AOA AOSS, 10g functional, 15g structural). (from brf)

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AU0861

What are the current figures buddy?
AOA: cleared for 22, undergoing tests upto 24
g: cleared for 6g, undergoing tests upto 8g

LSP6 will test AOA beyond 30 and g numbers 10g functional and 15g structural.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AsXnj0

LSP6 AOA indicator specs:

Angle of Attack Indicator shall indicate the angle of attack in degrees in the range of -90° to +90°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -10° to +20°, the amber band shall indicate in the range of +20° to +30° & -10° to -15° and the red band shall indicate +30° to +90° & -15° to -90°.

LSP6 AOSS indicator specs:

Angle of Side Slip Indicator shall indicate the angle of side slip in degrees in the range of -
25° to +25°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -5° to +5°, the amber band shall
indicate in the range of +5° to +10° & -5° to -10° and the red band shall indicate +10° to
+25° & -10° to -25°.

Severity Tests:

Test type |||||||| Severity
Rapid Decompression |||||||| From 23000 ft (7 km) to 60000ft (18 km) in 15 sec, Hold for 10 min at 60000ft.

Acceleration –functional |||||||| 10 ‘g’ in all 6 directions

Acceleration – structural ||||||| 15 ’g’ in all 6 directions

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9BQSYtd

 

[Manindra]

So 9500 KG less 2500 KG fuel weight = 7000 KG aircraft weight right? Now you believe that? So now do not tell it is 6.5 Tons say 7.0 tons.

HAL is equally authentic website and producing agency. If you do not want to believe, it is up to you.

Your problem is that you are not paying attention. I said it will be tested for 10g not certified for 10 g. Certification shall always be on conservative side. Pl check the following post on page no 492. It contains a link from HAL tender also. You can check bharat rakshak also.


Welcome to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited

Tender for development of hydraulic pump for LCA Tejas MK2.From the given documents they are looking for 10g stress capability.
Acceleration
• Operational g-level: 10 ’g’ in all 6 directions as per Sl. No. 16 a) of Annexure 1 of
Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
• Structural g-level: 1.5 times the ‘g’ value as indicated above as per Sl. No. 16 b) of
Annexure 1 of Environmental map of LCA, ADA/QA&SEG/082400/2004/036, Issue NIL, Dtd. 19/07/2004.
Qualification methodology : Actual Test
excellent find by Indranilroy@BR.
2. HAL-ARDC is taking up for development and Qualification of certain LRUs required
for catering to LCA-Mark 2 version. The first Prototype aircraft is slated for built during
2013-14, while series production(s) are planned for Inducting to fleet which is stated to be
taken up in two phases commencing from 2016 onwards.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-492.html#ixzz2a92I0rJr

Introduction

LCA Tejas Mk2 is being developed for use by the IAF and the IN. It will be powered by the more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engine and feature other upgrades.

Airframe Modifications

Minor modifications are being made to the LCA Tejas Mk1 airframe to accommodate the slightly larger engine. The fuselage has been extended by 500mm.

Pl read following. Aerodynamic Improvement is a part of MK2 features.

The dimensions of Mk2 will be as follows

Span : 8.20m
Length: 13.70m
Height: 4.52m

Upgrades


Besides a more powerful engine, Tejas Mk-2 will feature other improvements. Here is the complete list of planned upgrades

Higher Thrust Engine
Structural Weight Reduction
Aerodynamic Improvements
Upgrade of Flight Control Computer
Electronic Warfare Suite
Avionics Upgrade
In flight refuelling retractable probe
On board oxygen generation system
Increased fuel capacity.
Features

Supersonic at all altitudes
15km service altitude
Tailless compound delta wing
Composite structure
Improved performance
Improved maintainability
Improved Survivability
Digital Fly by wire
Fuel dump system
Multi mode radar

LCA Tejas Mk-2 - IDP Sentinel


work on LSP6 starts, severe aerodynamic testing planned (AOA AOSS, 10g functional, 15g structural). (from brf)

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AU0861

What are the current figures buddy?
AOA: cleared for 22, undergoing tests upto 24
g: cleared for 6g, undergoing tests upto 8g

LSP6 will test AOA beyond 30 and g numbers 10g functional and 15g structural.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9AsXnj0

LSP6 AOA indicator specs:

Angle of Attack Indicator shall indicate the angle of attack in degrees in the range of -90° to +90°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -10° to +20°, the amber band shall indicate in the range of +20° to +30° & -10° to -15° and the red band shall indicate +30° to +90° & -15° to -90°.

LSP6 AOSS indicator specs:

Angle of Side Slip Indicator shall indicate the angle of side slip in degrees in the range of -
25° to +25°. The green band shall indicate in the range of -5° to +5°, the amber band shall
indicate in the range of +5° to +10° & -5° to -10° and the red band shall indicate +10° to
+25° & -10° to -25°.

Severity Tests:

Test type |||||||| Severity
Rapid Decompression |||||||| From 23000 ft (7 km) to 60000ft (18 km) in 15 sec, Hold for 10 min at 60000ft.

Acceleration –functional |||||||| 10 ‘g’ in all 6 directions

Acceleration – structural ||||||| 15 ’g’ in all 6 directions

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-504.html#ixzz2a9BQSYtd

Here I give you DRDO monthly Techfocus feb 2011 special edition on LCA & hopes it will clear your much of doubts.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/feb%202011%20.pdf

 

[Manindra]

@vsdave2302 loaded weight you should also count PILOT weight & other support equipment which pilot carries.

For your 10g claim every equipment tested over their prescribed capacity that if they face those situation then didn't breakdown. It is comman rule of engineering which you fail to understand. This 10g stress capable equipment is ideal for 8g, same as 9g capable aircraft can take stress of 12g in emergency situation thats not make that aircraft 12g stress capable.

 

[vsdave2302]

@vsdave2302 loaded weight you should also count PILOT weight & other support equipment which pilot carries.

For your 10g claim every equipment tested over their prescribed capacity that if they face those situation then didn't breakdown. It is comman rule of engineering which you fail to understand. This 10g stress capable equipment is ideal for 8g, same as 9g capable aircraft can take stress of 12g in emergency situation thats not make that aircraft 12g stress capable.

OK How much will be the weight of Pilot and his other Support equipment? 500kg? (What I want to prove is that DATA cited on ADA website are inconsistent unless you believe that LCA empty weight is around 7 tons). If it is less than that, the same will straight way go into addition of weight carrying capacity of Tejas.

This is Exactly I want to tell you. It will be tested for 10 g functional acceleration and certification shall be on conservative side (read my posts once again), May be between 8 g to 9g. They want to check it for 10 g functional and 15g structural. I think that for stress capability, Structural testing is important not functional (Manindra or other members can correct me if I am wrong). They are going to test it for 15g structural g force. It is well beyond the figures you cited. So structurally the bird will be more than capable to handle any g force. How ever human endurance limit will be around 9g.

I have read on BR that variable inlets are planned for MK2 and it will hit Mach 2.2 .

You seem to have agreed on aerodynamic improvement in MK2.

In your post 7806, you have given reference of DRDO techno focus. It is too long to read. You have any specific point to prove, You are welcome. It is of 2011. LCA has moved a long way since than.

Thanks.

 

[Manindra]

OK How much will be the weight of Pilot and his other Support equipment? 500kg? (What I want to prove is that DATA cited on ADA website are inconsistent unless you believe that LCA empty weight is around 7 tons). If it is less than that, the same will straight way go into addition of weight carrying capacity of Tejas.

This is Exactly I want to tell you. It will be tested for 10 g functional acceleration and certification shall be on conservative side (read my posts once again), May be between 8 g to 9g. They want to check it for 10 g functional and 15g structural. I think that for stress capability, Structural testing is important not functional (Manindra or other members can correct me if I am wrong). They are going to test it for 15g structural g force. It is well beyond the figures you cited. So structurally the bird will be more than capable to handle any g force. How ever human endurance limit will be around 9g.

I have read on BR that variable inlets are planned for MK2 and it will hit Mach 2.2 .

You seem to have agreed on aerodynamic improvement in MK2.

In your post 7806, you have given reference of DRDO techno focus. It is too long to read. You have any specific point to prove, You are welcome. It is of 2011. LCA has moved a long way since than.

Thanks.

I am quoted source from LCA cheif nodal agency. What is HAL, only manufactur from obtaining TOT from ADA. Whom do you believe , Cheif nodal agency ADA or HAL. From 2011 there are not dramatic change in LCA. For gaining authentic knowledge you have to read such reports instead of BR or other fanboy source. You replied me with reading that even your doubt regarding empty clear on page 2. First read then ask.
@sancho kindly help him. I am tired.

 

[vsdave2302]

I am quoted source from LCA cheif nodal agency. What is HAL, only manufactur from obtaining TOT from ADA. Whom do you believe , Cheif nodal agency ADA or HAL. From 2011 there are not dramatic change in LCA. For gaining authentic knowledge you have to read such reports instead of BR or other fanboy source. You replied me with reading that even your doubt regarding empty clear on page 2. First read then ask.
@sancho kindly help him. I am tired.

You have failed to reply the points I raised. You are repeating the things again and again. You want to ignore even Mathematical contradiction in the figures. For example as per the DRDO literature, Weight of Plane 6560 KG+ Fuel 2458 KG=9018 KG. Now they write operational clean weight 9800 KG. So what is the explanation of 9800-9018= 782 KG? Same way ADA do not have explanation of 500 KG.So I do not believe them. If you want to believe the weight part of DRDO document, weight carrying capacity is only 3.5 (13300 KG-9800 K.G) Tons not 4.0.as you mentioned in your post 7804 so stick to 3.5 tons Not 4.0 tons.

Anyway I went through the DRDO document you cited. There is nothing in the document which supports your argument except weight (in fact load carrying capacity it is less than you stated). So far aerodynamics is concern, it states exact Opposite to what you cited in your previous posts. e.g The document praises the aerodynamic & agility. It praises wing design. It does not state that it is draggy as you said.

I am tired also. This is may last post in response to your post. All are free to believe whatever they want as 3 government agencies quote different weight figures. However I see contradiction in ADA & DRDO figures itself so I do not want to believe them. They do not have explanation of 500 KG & 800 K G Weight respectively.

Yes, I quoted comments from Blogs i.e BR and PDF. But these comments contains the link to tender documents of HAL which is not a fanboy source. You can check it if you want. You can believe it if you want. I believe that believing that documents do not make me Fanboy.

Pl do not feel offended. Thanks.

 

[Manindra]

I got some important data about test flights per year of tejas

TOTAL FLIGHTS
2001 012
2002 34
2003 95
2004 180
2005 159
2006 105
2007 213
2008 191
2009 281
2010 238
2011 251
2012 204
July-2013 308
TOTAL 2271

This data shows in which year works going slow & where gets momentum.

In 2012 due to problem in ejection seat which could hit Pilot's helmet to canopy LCA mostly grounded till problem got rectified.
In 2013 during 7 month period its achieve 308 test flights which shows that MOD is very serious on LCA.

 

[sudhir007]

I got some important data about test flights per year of tejas

TOTAL FLIGHTS
2001 012
2002 34
2003 95
2004 180
2005 159
2006 105
2007 213
2008 191
2009 281
2010 238
2011 251
2012 204
July-2013 308
TOTAL 2271

This data shows in which year works going slow & where gets momentum.

In 2012 due to problem in ejection seat which could hit Pilot's helmet to canopy LCA mostly grounded till problem got rectified.
In 2013 during 7 month period its achieve 308 test flights which shows that MOD is very serious on LCA.

Bang On -- ur right. So the Ist time they touch 300 test flight in a yr.

 

[Manindra]

Bang On -- ur right. So the Ist time they touch 300 test flight in a yr.

Not in a year only six & a half month.

 

[Black Widow]

Not in a year only six & a half month.

By december 100 more test may happen.. Wish LCA make 500 test flight till decemer..

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

You have failed to reply the points I raised. You are repeating the things again and again. You want to ignore even Mathematical contradiction in the figures. For example as per the DRDO literature, Weight of Plane 6560 KG+ Fuel 2458 KG=9018 KG. Now they write operational clean weight 9800 KG. So what is the explanation of 9800-9018= 782 KG? Same way ADA do not have explanation of 500 KG.So I do not believe them. If you want to believe the weight part of DRDO document, weight carrying capacity is only 3.5 (13300 KG-9800 K.G) Tons not 4.0.as you mentioned in your post 7804 so stick to 3.5 tons Not 4.0 tons.

Anyway I went through the DRDO document you cited. There is nothing in the document which supports your argument except weight (in fact load carrying capacity it is less than you stated). So far aerodynamics is concern, it states exact Opposite to what you cited in your previous posts. e.g The document praises the aerodynamic & agility. It praises wing design. It does not state that it is draggy as you said.

I am tired also. This is may last post in response to your post. All are free to believe whatever they want as 3 government agencies quote different weight figures. However I see contradiction in ADA & DRDO figures itself so I do not want to believe them. They do not have explanation of 500 KG & 800 K G Weight respectively.

Yes, I quoted comments from Blogs i.e BR and PDF. But these comments contains the link to tender documents of HAL which is not a fanboy source. You can check it if you want. You can believe it if you want. I believe that believing that documents do not make me Fanboy.

Pl do not feel offended. Thanks.

Doesn't operational weight includes 2 A2A missiles as well?