HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions

[sancho]

Sancho 1 question bro
Have we start developing AESA or not.
And withm whom JV, DRDO is developing the AESa radar.

When Weapon integration ll complete on LCA. Is there any deadline for this ?

DRDO has an AESA radar development going on for some years, so far without a partner and earlier reports suggested that MoD/IAF wasn't happy with the early performance and searched for a foreign partner. The Israelis were prefered, by their radar is co-developed with the US, that's why a co-development based on their techs is not possible so far.
Russian and European partners were evaluated as well, but officially no partner was chosen yet.

Currently we have no status about DRDOs puls doppler radar developments, which were meant for LCA Mk1. Talks from AI with officials suggest that they will have the EL 2032, even the early N-LCAs, which hints on DRDOs radar not beeing ready anytime soon, not the puls doppler radar, nor the AESA.

Even if they get ready with it, the question is how capable will they be and is is wise to use a premature AESA from them, only because it's indigenous, or should we stick with a foreign radar to provide the best techs for Indias security?

My personal choice is still to maximise commonality! We will produce the RBE 2 AESA and the FSO of Rafale in India anyway, so using both systems for LCA MK2 is a logical step towards lower costs and increase of capability of LCA MK2. DRDO then could keep maturing it's own AESA radar developments, to provide Mig 29K and AMCA with a good an proven AESA.
Not to forget that it could be added to LCA MK1s later to replace the Israeli radar, just like Kaveri K10 is meant to replace US engines in LCA MK1 too.

Tejas to be subjected to field conditions soon | idrw.org

Buddy, please quote at least parts of the article (the important once) and not only the link. Thx!

 

[sancho]

I completely Agree with you, my only point is Indian procurement division (Political class) should be empathic towards Domestic products.

Which is ok, IF we can domestically provide something similar, with the same capabilities and performance, but in most cases, this is not possible, since our industry is still decades behind. We shouldn't get into such conclusions because of indigenous pride and should remain realistic about what we need and what we can provide on our own.
The Air Chief confirmed at AI that IAF procures more than 60% of it's equipment from Indian suppliers (I guess that includes licence produced fighters like MKI as well), which is a good figure and we all know that this will only rise in future. The problem however is, that we tend to make indigenously devloped arms better then they are, because of the wrong reasons. LCA will never be as capable as Rafale or MKI, AMCA would never be as capable as FGFA, Dhruv is not in the class, nor does it offer the required performance as an EW101, or Mi 17...
So when we have something capable to offer, I fully support it to stick with Indian stuff, which is why I want IN and ICG to use upgraded naval Dhruvs, instead of buying foreign twin engine LUHs, but there are only very few such cases so far.

I know LCA was 600-700 Kg heavier, but tell me one thing, which bird in world had met exact weight it was targeted for??

Again, LCA is more than 1t heavier than planned, which is a major problem and arguing that other foreign projects also have issues, doesn't make LCA better, it's just an excuse to distract from the failures and problems of the industry.
I am fully with you on the point, that IAF should already have inducted LCA, because it's even now better than any Mig 21, Mig 27 or Jaguars, but that doesn't mean we simply should look over the problems it have, or that the industry simply should forget it and go on with the next project (that's what they are doing now!).

The only thing HAL/DRDO don't offer is bribe and flesh... If DRDO start providing east european flesh to these politicians, same LCA will become world class fighter...

The only thing DRDO don't offer so far is, what they have promised us! A light, cost-effective fighter, an indigenous engine that can power it and an indigenous radar, good enough to be comparable with similar foreign counterparts.
They messed up the first, because they wanted to do everything alone and at once, they failed badly at the second and as showed in my last post, the status of their radar developments are still uncertain.

 

[skysthelimit]

The only thing DRDO don't offer so far is, what they have promised us! A light, cost-effective fighter, an indigenous engine that can power it and an indigenous radar, good enough to be comparable with similar foreign counterparts.
They messed up the first, because they wanted to do everything alone and at once, they failed badly at the second and as showed in my last post, the status of their radar developments are still uncertain.

No one can argue that DRDO has had a horrible track record in delivering projects on time and as per agreed quality. But a large part of the problem stems from the fact that our armed forces at first sets sets unrealistically high goals for indigenous products and then keeps on changing the requirements as time goes by.

A few points here -
1. The point of developing & using indigenous military equipment is creating local capability - it is by definition a long term game. You can always argue that our air force will need to match enemy capabilities but the correct approach here is to create a basic product and keep on developing in subsequent releases. This is not a new concept or one exclusively prevalent in the military domain. In the software and startup world, the motto is "Release early and release often." But our armed forces start by asking for the planes and tanks from the pages of science fiction and then refuse to give clearance if their stringent demands are not met. This has happened for LCA and this has happened for Arjun as well.
2. But when it comes to foreign made products, they are strangely much more forgiving. I don't suggest that this is because of bribes and honey-traps, but their attitude does generate suspicion. Again Arjun vs. T90S comes to mind.
3. From what I have seen, the Indian Navy has been the sole exception in this regard - they have understood that asking for the moon from someone who has just learned to walk is a bad idea. Starting from scratch, they have accepted steadily more capable versions of fighting ships and now we have considerable local capacity in that domain. Of course, GRSE & Mazgaon docks can be a million times more productive, but still that's better than nothing.
4. I have a huge problem with the entire requirements structure of LCA itself. A Light Combat Aircraft is supposed to be just that - "Light". You use it for point defence, to achieve air superiority through maneuverability and massive numbers. That's why Mig 21 was such a good light fighter in its time - it didn't have a heavy weapon load and sucked at A2G missions, but it was cheap, fast and maneuverable - and that's what counted. But IAF wants all the features of F16, FA18 and F15 in our LCA, with the kitchen sink thrown in, if possible. Even Lockheed Martin would have trouble delivering something that needs to be good at everything at the same time.

 

[sancho]

No one can argue that DRDO has had a horrible track record in delivering projects on time and as per agreed quality. But a large part of the problem stems from the fact that our armed forces at first sets sets unrealistically high goals for indigenous products and then keeps on changing the requirements as time goes by.

If "some" delays would be the only problem, it wouldn't be a big issue, but in case of LCA for example, they can't provide anything! Their engine developments failed completely, which caused the main part of the LCA delays, so that has nothing to do with requirements or IAF at all. And which requirements really was changed by IAF? The new engines were needed because Kaveri failed and LCA got to heavy and draggy, so more power was a need to counter the shortfalls of the development (btw, mainly required from IN wrt N-LCA, just like the additional fuel tanks, which is why I always say, that N-LCA delays LCA as a while as well).

A few points here -
1. The point of developing & using indigenous military equipment is creating local capability - it is by definition a long term game. You can always argue that our air force will need to match enemy capabilities but the correct approach here is to create a basic product and keep on developing in subsequent releases.

Exactly, that's why the LCA program as whole is so important for Indias aero sector, because it's sets up the base infrastructure to develop and operate indigenously developed fighters. That's why it's so important to get LCA into serial production and inducted into IAF as soon as possible, but also to keep developments going on to make it better and provide good logistical support for the next 3 decades.
But all this is not possible if the industry is not able to meet at least basic development goals and simply want to switch to the next project now (AMCA), or without IAF finally inducting LCA and help to improve it in the coming years during operational service. That's why I am for inducting LCA right now, but not for waiting more years for DRDO to provide the promised techs. Take proven and capable foreign techs now instead, which even makes LCA better than initially planned and keep improving DRDOs development on the side and de-linked from LCA.

2. But when it comes to foreign made products, they are strangely much more forgiving. I don't suggest that this is because of bribes and honey-traps, but their attitude does generate suspicion. Again Arjun vs. T90S comes to mind.

I agree with that to certain extend, just like LCA should already be inducted now, Arjun should have got more orders by now as well. However, you can't simply forget the years of delays both projects have and that in these years the threat perception, just like the tactics changes, for Arjun more than for LCA.
Arjun was developed as an MBT in a time when Pakistan and the western borders were the main priority, today IA needs more mobile tanks that can face the more capable Chinese army, that's why IA prefers T90s or the FMBT for the northern or eastern borders.
LCA on the other side was always meant to be the low end fighter of IAF, so even against China it will only be an addition to more capable MKIs, Rafales and in future FGFAs at the eastern borders. That's why I would have prefered a smaller and faster MK2 modifications, but as said, that was mainly not possibly because if the requirements of IN.

So again, it is ture that our forces needs to be more confident in indigenous developments, but that doesn't mean they have to take anything what the industry have developmed or what they want to develop (HTT40), because the most important priority is Indias security, not supporting Indian industry for pride reasons!

3. From what I have seen, the Indian Navy has been the sole exception in this regard -

That's often stated, but it's simply too short sighted!

1) IN don't have a threat perception like IA and IAF, therefor their requirements can be lower, or they can accept limited capable indigenous developments too (N-LCA)

2) Indian naval industry is way ahead of our aero industry, that's why IN benefit a lot from good Indian companies, that can not only produce capable vessels, but also from capable naval sensors (partially developed by DRDO) and systems.

3) On the other side, the fact that IN might not have a single indigenously developed helicopter for the next decades apart from a dozon naval Dhruvs or so, shows the problem of the aero field and that IN is not that supporting as it seems!

 

[rockstarIN]

I completely Agree with you, my only point is Indian procurement division (Political class) should be empathic towards Domestic products. I may be wrong at LCA but there are many deals which we all know where Politicians changed the requirements drastically.

One I remember was Jaguar, the sole Idea of Jaguar procurement was to have Nuclear delivery capability, which it didn't met.
Another instance was Arjuna, Arjuna was sabotaged to procure 1200+ T90 Tanks.

I know LCA was 600-700 Kg heavier, but tell me one thing, which bird in world had met exact weight it was targeted for?? I was watching once EFT documentry, I was shocked to see that It was also heavier than targeted. I was watching Rafael Documentry I was shocked to see, the Engine was not enough powerfull as targeted. All these problems were solved later (After procurement).

Watch Documentry of F111A, This plane was sh!t in Vietnam war, later it was redesign/modified.

The only thing HAL/DRDO don't offer is bribe and flesh... If DRDO start providing east european flesh to these politicians, same LCA will become world class fighter...

You are correct in all ways. Those army/iaf guys need bribe nothing else. We needed outside people to tell us T-90 is a desert Ferrari. I bet if you take LCA out to any other country and do trials, their reply will be way different than our guys.

 

[rockstarIN]

Also the middle man involved in the Mirage deal, damn I do not want that deal to be cancelled even we are paying around $42 million per lance for the up gradation less weapons!!

 

[sancho]

Also the middle man involved in the Mirage deal, damn I do not want that deal to be cancelled even we are paying around $42 million per lance for the up gradation less weapons!!

1. of all, Dassault didn't paid anything
2. it was during the procurement of Mirage 2000 some decades ago, which can't have any point in the upgrade of the fighters anyway

 

[Abingdonboy]

Slides from Aero India 2013 for Canada-based CMC Electronics/Easterline, which is competing against HALBIT (ELBIT) Systems fir supplying the glass cockpit for the Tejas Mk2 and LCA (Navy) Mk2 MRCAs:

ELBIT's CockpitNG:

 

[The A-5]

^^Definitely CockpitNG seems better. And its from a more reliable source, we can obtain it through
the HALBIT avionics JV company between HAL and Elbit Systems.

 

[Abingdonboy]

^^Definitely CockpitNG seems better. And its from a more reliable source, we can obtain it through
the HALBIT avionics JV company between HAL and Elbit Systems.

I agree fully. The Cockpit 4000 from CMC Electronics/Easterline looks a little less refined IMHO.


And yes- when HALBIT is already up and running, let them take the deal.

 

[S-DUCT]

LCA tejas avionics & weapon system(hi def pic)

 

[S-DUCT]

EW suite for LCA:

 

[subincb]

Source Anantha Krishnan From Tarmak

Tejas hits target.

Just in. Sources tell Tarmak007 that Tejas hits target during Iron Fist full dress rehearsal. (Official confirmation yet to come.)

 

[skysthelimit]

If "some" delays would be the only problem, it wouldn't be a big issue, but in case of LCA for example, they can't provide anything! Their engine developments failed completely, which caused the main part of the LCA delays, so that has nothing to do with requirements or IAF at all. And which requirements really was changed by IAF? The new engines were needed because Kaveri failed and LCA got to heavy and draggy, so more power was a need to counter the shortfalls of the development (btw, mainly required from IN wrt N-LCA, just like the additional fuel tanks, which is why I always say, that N-LCA delays LCA as a while as well).

DRDO & IAF's first and major mistake was linking the LCA & Kaveri program together. And unfortunately the Kaveri program was hit hard by the post-Pokhran sanctions. But even without any problems, DRDO had its work out in designing Kaveri - one of the main reasons thrust requirement for Kaveri was so high was due to the unreasonably high weapon load and performance the IAF expected from LCA.

Exactly, that's why the LCA program as whole is so important for Indias aero sector, because it's sets up the base infrastructure to develop and operate indigenously developed fighters. That's why it's so important to get LCA into serial production and inducted into IAF as soon as possible, but also to keep developments going on to make it better and provide good logistical support for the next 3 decades.
But all this is not possible if the industry is not able to meet at least basic development goals and simply want to switch to the next project now (AMCA), or without IAF finally inducting LCA and help to improve it in the coming years during operational service. That's why I am for inducting LCA right now, but not for waiting more years for DRDO to provide the promised techs. Take proven and capable foreign techs now instead, which even makes LCA better than initially planned and keep improving DRDOs development on the side and de-linked from LCA.

I agree with that to certain extend, just like LCA should already be inducted now, Arjun should have got more orders by now as well. However, you can't simply forget the years of delays both projects have and that in these years the threat perception, just like the tactics changes, for Arjun more than for LCA.
Arjun was developed as an MBT in a time when Pakistan and the western borders were the main priority, today IA needs more mobile tanks that can face the more capable Chinese army, that's why IA prefers T90s or the FMBT for the northern or eastern borders.
LCA on the other side was always meant to be the low end fighter of IAF, so even against China it will only be an addition to more capable MKIs, Rafales and in future FGFAs at the eastern borders. That's why I would have prefered a smaller and faster MK2 modifications, but as said, that was mainly not possibly because if the requirements of IN.

So again, it is ture that our forces needs to be more confident in indigenous developments, but that doesn't mean they have to take anything what the industry have developmed or what they want to develop (HTT40), because the most important priority is Indias security, not supporting Indian industry for pride reasons!

Even I am not suggesting that India accept inferior quality indigenous products for local pride, but when it comes to foreign made equipment, IA & IAF seem to be much more willing to relax standards but not so much for DRDO. Specifically, Arjun has bested the T-90 in all comparative performance tests, but still Army insists on the Russian tank. And weight of Arjun is far less of an issue - Arjun has lower ground pressure than T-90, which is the critical factor.

That's often stated, but it's simply too short sighted!

1) IN don't have a threat perception like IA and IAF, therefor their requirements can be lower, or they can accept limited capable indigenous developments too (N-LCA)

2) Indian naval industry is way ahead of our aero industry, that's why IN benefit a lot from good Indian companies, that can not only produce capable vessels, but also from capable naval sensors (partially developed by DRDO) and systems.

3) On the other side, the fact that IN might not have a single indigenously developed helicopter for the next decades apart from a dozon naval Dhruvs or so, shows the problem of the aero field and that IN is not that supporting as it seems!

Indian naval industry is now ahead of the aero industry because the IN has been supporting local capability development for decades. And they are still much more accepting of Indian products - Admiral Joshi has been stressing on his preference for Naval Dhruv and LCA for quite a few months now.

 

[The Witcher]

Didn't we already developed an indigenous glass cockpit for Mk1?

Didn't we already developed an indigenous glass cockpit for Mk1?