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You just get it now? You have no idea what you have been talking about all this time. If you want to argue about the disadvantages of delta-canards with modern powerful engines why don't you first read about the 1991 Gripen test flight crash. This is important as it was the time when the LA design was still in the drawing board and was entering wind tunnel stage.

Sorry too many Indian warriors to answer now. Me not knowing what a glass cockpit term does not mean my other arguments are irrelevant or I did not know what I was talking about. If you are confident then refute my statements. Simple as that, correct it as you want. This is an open discussion right? No point harping on that terminological error and then discredit me.

Why don't you read about the M2K crash. So now, you are saying LCA design went to a more primitive one because a more advanced one crashed? Which one is it? They didn't adopt canards because of :



1) RCS increment?
2) Complexity in maintenance and control
3) Gripen crashed?

So they were afraid to implement that design due to confidence issues? How about the advancement of control systems after that crashed? Ever think about that?
 
No no. LCA has a all plastic cockpit. Indian technology is not advanced enough to put all 'glass cockpit' in LCA. We dont have the technology to mold glass as we can mold plastics. Also, with plastic we dont have to worry about cooling the cockpit to keep glass cool. But engine heat is a problem for plastic cockpit!

Chill Gubbi,

I think plastics wise, India is OK. MFDs? I don't think so. Heat would be a problem for plastics... LOL
 
You just get it now? You have no idea what you have been talking about all this time. If you want to argue about the disadvantages of delta-canards with modern powerful engines why don't you first read about the 1991 Gripen test flight crash. This is important as it was the time when the LA design was still in the drawing board and was entering wind tunnel stage.

Leave this kid alone, ignore it. It is PDF, he would have banned had he trolled like this in JFT sticky forum
 
Sorry too many Indian warriors to answer now. Me not knowing what a glass cockpit term does not mean my other arguments are irrelevant or I did not know what I was talking about. If you are confident then refute my statements. Simple as that, correct it as you want. This is an open discussion right? No point harping on that terminological error and then discredit me.

Why don't you read about the M2K crash. So now, you are saying LCA design went to a more primitive one because a more advanced one crashed? Which one is it? They didn't adopt canards because of :



1) RCS increment?
2) Complexity in maintenance and control
3) Gripen crashed?

So they were afraid to implement that design due to confidence issues? How about the advancement of control systems after that crashed? Ever think about that?

Accidents and incidents involving the JAS 39 Gripen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I couldnt find the crash report of the Gripen test flights during its development period as it has been removed from internet. It was said to be because of the slower stall speeds earlier.

I was refuting your statements and all you could answer was some bullcrap. You have the slightest idea of what are the advantages and disadvantages of pure delta, delta canards and a cranked delta and cropped delta.

As quoted by the cheif of DRDO the LCA has opened up only 85% of it's flight envelope. And you have started comparing with an in-service aircraft with export orders made by a company that hass aready designed and deployed 2 succesful aircrafts earlier.

The M2K also has canards albeit small ones but was sufficient to increase the AoA. The M2K uses a pure delta configuration with the M-53-P2 engine that delivers a 95 KN thust.

Yes those factors mentioned above was the major reasons that the ADA decided to not go with canards. LCA was envisaged to be a PDF not a multi-role fighter. By reducing the sweep of the leading edge of the wing the surface area can be increased thus giving the aircraft better lift and a lower stall speed and also decreasing the wing-loadingand increase the wing area.

THe LCA was a low cost aircraft and the lo end of the IAF. It performs everything that it was supposed to perform better than what was required in the first ASQR. So why dont you read some basic physics before tyou come and start talking aerodynamics to me...starting with Bernoulli's effect would be a good yard stick
 
I love this guy - Han Warrior!

Its amazing how he comes up with such interesting claims, which to be fair, not even the worst trolls intent on derailing could come up with!! It would be an abomination to call him a troll lest one desecrates the word 'troll'!!

Some of his "statements"
A true beauty -

- remember Baghdad Bob or even Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns"?


I was asking him what is LEVCON, why is he claiming it to be more superior, how much more superior? Why was he saying dynamic canards were 'simple' and yet India couldn't even develop controls for delta yet alone a 'simple' caanrd? If you know, then enlighten us.
 
I was refuting your statements and all you could answer was some bullcrap. You have the slightest idea of what are the advantages and disadvantages of pure delta, delta canards and a cranked delta and cropped delta.

The point I was making is why did all of those major aircraft manufacturers whose previous generation were using pure deltas evolve into canard delta. Explain it. You can claim more RCS with canards, but I explained to you the irrelevance. You can claim LCA is cranked delta. I asked how do you define cranked delta? No one is answering me yet.

As quoted by the cheif of DRDO the LCA has opened up only 85% of it's flight envelope. And you have started comparing with an in-service aircraft with export orders made by a company that hass aready designed and deployed 2 succesful aircrafts earlier.

Well, I just said it was copied from Mirage 2000 base on two known facts.

1) It looks like a Mirage.
2) Dassault was involved.

Again, this is circumstantial evidence. Can you prove otherwise? This is your national plane here, you need to defend it. =)

Performance wise, how should I know. M2K had been in service for so long, LCA is not even inducted. It could be worse than a 40 year old plane? No one knows. Read my statements properly. I never ever once said it had the same performance as M2K.

Again, just because M2K crashed, you still went along with a pure delta design anyway. You get my point? Just because Gripen crash, you could still go along and develop better controls.


The M2K also has canards albeit small ones but was sufficient to increase the AoA. The M2K uses a pure delta configuration with the M-53-P2 engine that delivers a 95 KN thust.

OO, now we have baby canards. Can you provide me with a picture showing where it is?

Yes those factors mentioned above was the major reasons that the ADA decided to not go with canards. LCA was envisaged to be a PDF not a multi-role fighter. By reducing the sweep of the leading edge of the wing the surface area can be increased thus giving the aircraft better lift and a lower stall speed and also decreasing the wing-loadingand increase the wing area.

Did you just admit that ADA didn't have the capability nor confidence to 'design' canard based aircraft. This is all I wanted to hear. Thank You. I don't care about the function, what I want to know is why you didn't go with canards. Your friend gave all super duper characteristics for pure deltas vs canards but the real reason is ability isn't it? LOL


Your friend just said LCA had same function as Gripen and Gripen is a Multirole aircraft. Again, answer my two questions. Why if pure deltas are so good, NONE of the majors which includes Russia, America and Europe are using it except LCA? You see any new development with pure deltas?

THe LCA was a low cost aircraft and the lo end of the IAF. It performs everything that it was supposed to perform better than what was required in the first ASQR. So why dont you read some basic physics before tyou come and start talking aerodynamics to me...starting with Bernoulli's effect would be a good yard stick.

Your other bhais seem to think it was a gen 4.5 aircraft. You call that lo end? No point getting personal. I am again just dissecting your statements. Let me restate my questions:

1) Why did major delta users change to canards? Example Dassault/Saab?
2) Why is LCA termed a Mig-21+ aircraft by your ACM when your bhais call it a modern super duper gen 4.5 aircraft?
3) IF it indigenous, what was Dassault doing there?

Answer it. Defend you nation my dear jawans. Your reputation is at stake. LOL
 
If you dont know that the Mirage 2000 has canards then i dont think i have time to talk with you...

mirage2000_4.jpg
 
If you dont know that the Mirage 2000 has canards then i dont think i have time to talk with you...

mirage2000_4.jpg

Thanks for the info. So now is mirage a pure delta or delta canard? Your post says it is a pure delta? I am confused now. =)
 
Thanks for the info. So now is mirage a pure delta or delta canard? Your post says it is a pure delta? I am confused now. =)

The delta wing of the mirage is a pure delta...when coupled with canard it gives higher AoA...now get it...I was talking about the wing planform alone not the canard
 
Performance wise, how should I know. M2K had been in service for so long, LCA is not even inducted. It could be worse than a 40 year old plane? No one knows. Read my statements properly. I never ever once said it had the same performance as M2K.

The only good thing about Mirage i could see is its power plant which is far ahead of tejas.... rest it had evolved slowly from several iterations.. because of several problem it has faced... and finally it is in the stage that it has exhibited the maximum out of it

You need to compare it with ideal powerplant to see the performance of Tejas which will exceed Mirage or equalize NG at any day.....

Mk2 will hose good power plant with some aerodynamic changes .... In addition it is going to have more internal fuel and more payload exceeding the MTOW of Mirage...
 
You are forcing me to see it in your own lens but I am merely dissecting your claims so that you can prove your claims and see it in another view.

Not really, I am asking you to listen to others and try to understand, instead of flaming based only on your opinions, but that's obvioulsy not in your interest, isnt it?


I do not have to understand why LCA has no canards, I need to understand why most major 4 gen planes have canards like J-10. Simple as that.

Which besides beeing small minded, is also factually wrong, because neither the 4th gen US teen fighters, nor most of the comparable Russian 4th gen fighters has canards. Canards doesn't define a fighter generations, like you wrongly assume.


Americans/Russians not using canards does not mean deltas are better. I don’t seem to see any modern American/Russian planes with deltas either. On the other hand the Europeans had delta planes and moved on to Canards. Do you understand my argument. I am arguing canard against obsolete pure delta.

First of all, there is another major mistake in your logic, because you have to differe between wing design and canards. You can add canards to any wing design with the same aim, to improve maneuverability. So when you compare the pros and cons of the delta wing design, you have to compare it with the wing designs of the other fighters, not with the canards.

Secondly, American/Russian has not developed modern fighters with delta wings?

Mig 1.42

mig-144.jpg




Boeing X-32

Boeing-X-32-medium.jpg



Both delta wing fighters that were developed about the same time (late 80s, early 90s) as the European delta wing fighters, or the Israeli Lavi and they wasn't rejected because of the wing design, but other disadvantages they had. Not to mention that all new UCAV developments have delta wing designs as well, be it European, Russian, US, Chinese, or Indian.


Aren’t you contradicting yourself, you tell me LCA was developed for low RCS and now you are going to apply LEVCON canards to it? So which is which? So LEVCON does not increase RCS? Right!

Again you prove your lack of knowledge and understanding, because the LEVCONS will be added only on N-LCA, for specific reasons. They will be added to increase the low speed performance for carrier landings (same reason why J 15 has canards and J11 have not). Try to understand the aim behind it first, before you run into your (often wrong) conlusions!


It's pointless to argue with you any longer, because you have your preconceived (mainly wrong) opinions and refuse to see even the basic facts, no matter what we will explain you. So remain with your believes, but please don't derail the thread any longer!
 
The delta wing of the mirage is a pure delta...when coupled with canard it gives higher AoA...now get it...I was talking about the wing planform alone not the canard

Friend,

Canards are wings too. Delta is a shape. The problem now arises, how do you classify M2K? Officially as per Dassault, it is still primarily defined as a delta wing aircraft. Or are you gonna classify it as delta back wing, frontal canard which is shortformed as delta canard? How big of a canard you need to have to qualify as a canard, what is the slant? The term are all ambigious and ill-defined.


See my point here, all aircraft have small slight differences but you cannot deny the fact that Mirage 2000 is similar to LCA. I can understand if the case was without Dassault involvement. I can't find any aircraft that looks like LCA except Mirage-2000. Can you find one?
 
The only good thing about Mirage i could see is its power plant which is far ahead of tejas.... rest it had evolved slowly from several iterations.. because of several problem it has faced... and finally it is in the stage that it has exhibited the maximum out of it

You need to compare it with ideal powerplant to see the performance of Tejas which will exceed Mirage or equalize NG at any day.....

Mk2 will hose good power plant with some aerodynamic changes .... In addition it is going to have more internal fuel and more payload exceeding the MTOW of Mirage...

Don't count the chicken before the eggs hatch. An upgraded Mirage-2000 could be better than LCA, who knows. First, induct the plane and make it indigenously, then talk.
 
Don't count the chicken before the eggs hatch. An upgraded Mirage-2000 could be better than LCA, who knows. First, induct the plane and make it indigenously, then talk.

How many times we will have to tell you that LCA has already achieved IOC.8 are in service
 
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