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Gen Tariq Khan, IG FC: We had to clear Afghan border village because NATO was MIA

Isn't it tragic that pak generals are still running clueless as to how to counter the insurgency---for thousand of years since history---since dawn of man---since insurgency has been started any place anywhere in the civilized and the uncivilized world---it is always the leadership that is the target---you chop of the head of the serpeant---once the leadership is gone---the wind blows out of the sails---the funding dries away---the ideogical binds---the charismatic hypnotic control of the leader is gone----

Did nobody told this man,the general, that leaders have hypnotic qualities---they mesmerize the audience with their speech, their voice, their eyes, their appearnce, their persona, their ability to look at the wider picture, they make people do terrible things, they make people do wonderful things, they make people lay down their lives for them without asking a question---you take the LEADER OUT OF THE EQUATION---THE HOUSE FALLS LIKE A DECK OF CARDS---example Mohammad Ali Jinnah---pakistanis still crying for that one leader---saying none is there to replace him for the last 62 years---that is why nation is in turmoil---.

Pakistan's tragedy is that that there are more like the IG FC in the heirarchy than those who would make a difference. It is pitiful.


Mastan Khan, your opinion is not borne out by the facts.

Abdullah Mehsud was killed, Baitullah replaced him.

Baitullah was killed, Hakeemullah replaced him.

If Hakeemullah were to be killed without the Army doing what it is doing now, denying space and destroying capability, another wretched madman would replace him. The bombings and militancy would not end. If anything, arguably, these TTP vermin get worse as old leaders are killed and replaced by new ones.

Al-Qaeda had three major leaders at the time 9/11 occurred. Atif, Osama and Zawahiri. Atif was the military leader, Osama was the nominal figurehead and Zawahiri was the devilish inspiration behind the movement as well as the international liaison with other terrorists. Atif was killed soon after the US struck in Afghanistan but this didn't impact the Al Qaeda military operations at all. Again, the US did not hold ground, did not deny Al Qaeda space and did not strike in a way that would seriously impede terrorist capabilities. If the US had the will, skill and manpower to do what the Pakistan Army is now doing in SWA, whether or not Osama/Zawahiri/Omer lived or died would have been irrelevant.

Another example: the Baa'thists in Iraq were defeated much before Saddam was discovered hiding in his hole. His elimination made no difference - before or after. In fact, it was only after Saddam was arrested that many of the old Baa'thists decided to join new groups and begin the insurgency.

What the Army is doing is absolutely spot on. All power to the brilliant generals and brave men of the Pakistan Armed Forces. May Allah protect them.
 
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Firstly from what news we recive the army is doing a wonderfull job.

As for capturing the leaders, if you say it was not your objective and dont catch them then your in the clear.
If you say you are going after them and dont find them then every one leaps in and says you failed no matter what else you achived.

The pakistan generals learned well from american mistakes, never make a public statment unless you know you can achive it.
 
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Mastan Khan, your opinion is not borne out by the facts.

Abdullah Mehsud was killed, Baitullah replaced him.

Baitullah was killed, Hakeemullah replaced him.



Wallah,

Pakistanis have answer for everything except for substance---for thousands of years wars have been fought on the principal of strike hard, strike deep, don't stop once you have made the break through---take the leadership out---1, 2, 3 or more---plus everyone else.

It is just not killing one leader that it would end----once the army strikes hard, then it should continue relentlessly and ruthlessly giving no breathing room to the insurgents---the break through has been made, now the hunt must start to wrap up the operation.

Over here, pak army kills one leader---then they sit around and toast and boast of their success---in the meantime the insurgent gathers and puts its resources together and regroups---then the pak army gets a jirga together---the jirga is booted out by the insurgents---the jirga is also executed by the isurgents---then after a couple of yawns---the generals decide to make another move---it is a sad story---when young men---young soldiers and young officers of the army are laying down their lives for the nation---these generals have their own agenda to fulfill.

Maybe, they need to be sent to india to get a refresher course in the ideology and implentation of General Brar's doctrine of neutralizing insurgency.

If the u s army didnot chose to do the job on OBL---it fell on pak army to finish it off---pakistan army and its intelligence wing failed to analyze the repurcusions that the nation would face of letting the escaping al qaeda personale into nwfp. It is simply not killing one or two men---it is executing one and all of the heirarchy---basically all of the foreigners that came across the border and high ranking pak operators----.

The moment the americans let OBL off the hook at Tora Bora---it became very clear to all that the u s agenda was not what they had been speaking about---someone with a little better understanding would have known from the gitgo---ie before the start of war that the americans were upto smething different---OBL should have been taken and neutralized at any cost----but pak millitary analysts failed miserably to read into what the u s had in mind---they were protecting their brothers---their muslim brothers---.

Giving the example of Saddam, is a bad example----we are talking about insurgency---a small group of people taking up arms against the majority govt. Saddam was the legitimate ruler of iraq---even though he was dethroned and executed---some of his followers still chose to fight on---this is not isurgency---this is a freedom movement---this is a war aginst the outside army that invaded and took over the land.

The situation in iraq was different than at tora bora---where as in iraq, the Saddam supporters were already in their homeland--ie iraq---fighting for their rights and freedom---the al qaeda were landless---neither afg was their homeland---nor was pak their motherland---.

Pak lagged behind in what they should have done right away was because they thought that over time, they would be able to milk the u s for money and millitarty hardware over the time period---not realizing that there were "OTHER FACTORS" also involved.

The other factor was india---the pak generals and policy makers never realized and comprehendedthe india equation in that triangle---u s afg pak----how could india be left aside---india then went on to create moments of oppurtunities and started chipping at pak u s relationship----pak fell into the trap feet first, eyes blinded, ears plugged and has not been able to resurrect itself out of the muck that it chose to fall into. The next oppurtunity they availed oof was funding and training of baluch lieberation and TTTP.

Pak economy is in shambles---every day life in pak is fearful---neither the police is safe and nor is the millitary safe against the strikes of the insurgents---the stage has come that even the president of pak doesnot openly come out to make public appearance---world is harping up on pakistan---what pak needed to hide all through these years is in public light and center of discussion at every gathering---( the pak nuc program / Dr A Q Khan )---.

And on top of it all----paks were running the affairs of their country like they were out on a picnic.

The ra ra ra of supporting the pak army is fine---but there is no substance to it---after awhile---the praise becomes an empty slogan.
 
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Mastan Khan, your opinion is not borne out by the facts.

Abdullah Mehsud was killed, Baitullah replaced him.

Baitullah was killed, Hakeemullah replaced him.



Wallah,

Pakistanis have answer for everything except for substance---for thousands of years wars have been fought on the principal of strike hard, strike deep, don't stop once you have made the break through---take the leadership out---1, 2, 3 or more---plus everyone else.

It is just not killing one leader that it would end----once the army strikes hard, then it should continue relentlessly and ruthlessly giving no breathing room to the insurgents---the break through has been made, now the hunt must start to wrap up the operation.

Over here, pak army kills one leader---then they sit around and toast and boast of their success---in the meantime the insurgent gathers and puts its resources together and regroups---then the pak army gets a jirga together---the jirga is booted out by the insurgents---the jirga is also executed by the isurgents---then after a couple of yawns---the generals decide to make another move---it is a sad story---when young men---young soldiers and young officers of the army are laying down their lives for the nation---these generals have their own agenda to fulfill.

Maybe, they need to be sent to india to get a refresher course in the ideology and implentation of General Brar's doctrine of neutralizing insurgency.

If the u s army didnot chose to do the job on OBL---it fell on pak army to finish it off---pakistan army and its intelligence wing failed to analyze the repurcusions that the nation would face of letting the escaping al qaeda personale into nwfp. It is simply not killing one or two men---it is executing one and all of the heirarchy---basically all of the foreigners that came across the border and high ranking pak operators----.

The moment the americans let OBL off the hook at Tora Bora---it became very clear to all that the u s agenda was not what they had been speaking about---someone with a little better understanding would have known from the gitgo---ie before the start of war that the americans were upto smething different---OBL should have been taken and neutralized at any cost----but pak millitary analysts failed miserably to read into what the u s had in mind---they were protecting their brothers---their muslim brothers---.

Giving the example of Saddam, is a bad example----we are talking about insurgency---a small group of people taking up arms against the majority govt. Saddam was the legitimate ruler of iraq---even though he was dethroned and executed---some of his followers still chose to fight on---this is not isurgency---this is a freedom movement---this is a war aginst the outside army that invaded and took over the land.

The situation in iraq was different than at tora bora---where as in iraq, the Saddam supporters were already in their homeland--ie iraq---fighting for their rights and freedom---the al qaeda were landless---neither afg was their homeland---nor was pak their motherland---.

Pak lagged behind in what they should have done right away was because they thought that over time, they would be able to milk the u s for money and millitarty hardware over the time period---not realizing that there were "OTHER FACTORS" also involved.

The other factor was india---the pak generals and policy makers never realized and comprehendedthe india equation in that triangle---u s afg pak----how could india be left aside---india then went on to create moments of oppurtunities and started chipping at pak u s relationship----pak fell into the trap feet first, eyes blinded, ears plugged and has not been able to resurrect itself out of the muck that it chose to fall into. The next oppurtunity they availed oof was funding and training of baluch lieberation and TTTP.

Pak economy is in shambles---every day life in pak is fearful---neither the police is safe and nor is the millitary safe against the strikes of the insurgents---the stage has come that even the president of pak doesnot openly come out to make public appearance---world is harping up on pakistan---what pak needed to hide all through these years is in public light and center of discussion at every gathering---( the pak nuc program / Dr A Q Khan )---.

And on top of it all----paks were running the affairs of their country like they were out on a picnic.

The ra ra ra of supporting the pak army is fine---but there is no substance to it---after awhile---the praise becomes an empty slogan.

MK - pls stop living in the past (you remind me of a PPP leader, who has no forward vision so he sticks to his bread and butter - ZAB and BB) - the people want to know 'what are you doing for us today' and from the looks of it the civilian govt is 'over its head' in trying to solve the nations problems. what the people are seeing is that finally (albeit late) the army is playing its 'professional role' - go ask on the street what the youth (18-30 yrs) of this country think. 60% say the army is doing a fantastic job!!! - the army's graph has never been higher and that is why the civilians are 'worried'.

you talk of pakistani daily life (from the serenity of the lovely bay-area) - well, things are improving slowly.

loadshedding is reducing slowly - in my area it was 6 hours a day, now its 3 hours a day.

the circular debt is being paid off and the IPPs are coming on line (not on schedule) but then beggers cant be choosers.

inflation is coming down - bank interest rates are coming down - bumper rice crop to earn 2 bill $ in exports - farmers are getting good prices for cotton and sugarcane - and investment in the upcoming wheat crop is going to be huge, leading to another bumper crop.

the TTP's is in diarray - not defeated but destroyed in detail. they are leaving behind heavy weapons and ammo, their infrastructure destroyed, they can only surive in 'straggling small bands' and are being picked off by the army (on human intell provided by informers and the local population)

when you say learn from brar's COIN experience and take lessons from india's generals - please!!! how dissapointing.

i look at what is happening on the ground - the little things which are changing things around - you talk 'politics' and 'fog' the good that is taking place.

MK - sorry friend - dont lose your objectivity!
 
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I believe the words of IG FC are being taken out of context, he is right in saying that taking out leadership is not the objective, primary objective in correct form, its mostly a secondary objective in every war, but if by chance an opportunity comes top leadership can be taken out. Problem is that the leadership in such war is always sitting far away from the action, as they know if they are taken out the organization or whole front will crumble. In Swat also we saw the same thing, first the Taliban foot soldiers were decimated, even with their leadership on the run they could not do anything, once the area was captured, hunt for leadership started and payed dividends. Even during the Swat campaign, whenever an opportunity came in the form of Information, air strikes were launched to target the leadership, taking out the number 2 of Fazllullah, Shah Duran, even Fazllullah was targeted many times.

Also IG FC is right that to look for leadership resources are to be allocated, and they will have to work behind enemy lines in the current stage of operation when maximum area is still to be cleared, and putting soldiers behind enemy lines means the troops are also needed to be special, meaning SSG kind of teams and putting them in more danger as the area will of enemy's not under military, so chances of more casualties would be there which may not even yield the results. This was adopted before also when SSG teams were put in enemy territory to conduct operations with mix results, as such efforts also need dedicated air power at disposal to launch precision strikes when a target of opportunity arises.

Anyhow, main thing is that leadership is always an objective, but not a primary one when ground assault is launched, primary objective is to decimate the ground troops and get hold of enemy territory and smoke out the hidden enemy with taking out the leadership. Few days before same question was asked from DG ISPR, who said the same thing that first we need to get hold of the ground, then intel based operations targeting the leadership will be done and the recent capture of no.17 in the leadership hierarchy with a 10Million head bounty is a testament that leadership will be targeted as and when opportunity arises.
 
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MastanKhan, you first deny the enemy space to operate in and build intel networks to get to the leaders. We are in first phase right now. First of all. this is not a typical insurgency led by one or two leaders. This is an ideological battle with terrorism as the tactic being used. You have to understand what the fight is, before commenting on it.

All the rest of your post is ranting in frustration for whatever reason.
 
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It's been good to learn of the Orakzai and Kurram operations. The weather is still adequate, I'm guessing-at least in the cities and towns down in the valleys. I'd imagine these insurgents lack any coherancy and are nothing more than wandering brigands at this point. They'll probably wander right into Konar and Nuristan. I would. Nuristanis are weird, though.

Interesting to read about this incursion of yours. I'll be fascinated to see how matters develop on this issue. Must have been "hot pursuit", eh? Well, if McChrystal has his way, Nuristan and a good portion of Konar along the border won't be seeing American patrols. Of course, to judge by some of the experts here, those areas had never seen Americans anyway.

Well, they won't be missed by Pakistan then. Maybe the ANA or ANP will fill the gap. Maybe Pakistan will just move the border west 5 km?:)

Anyway, we'll still be around Asadabad, Jalalabad, Khost, and Gardez I'm sure. Don't shoot any yanks when you go araidin'. Feel free to shoot any good taliban you see though.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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It's been good to learn of the Orakzai and Kurram operations. The weather is still adequate, I'm guessing-at least in the cities and towns down in the valleys. I'd imagine these insurgents lack any coherancy and are nothing more than wandering brigands at this point. They'll probably wander right into Konar and Nuristan. I would. Nuristanis are weird, though.

Interesting to read about this incursion of yours. I'll be fascinated to see how matters develop on this issue. Must have been "hot pursuit", eh? Well, if McChrystal has his way, Nuristan and a good portion of Konar along the border won't be seeing American patrols. Of course, to judge by some of the experts here, those areas had never seen Americans anyway.

Well, they won't be missed by Pakistan then. Maybe the ANA or ANP will fill the gap. Maybe Pakistan will just move the border west 5 km?:)

Anyway, we'll still be around Asadabad, Jalalabad, Khost, and Gardez I'm sure. Don't shoot any yanks when you go araidin'. Feel free to shoot any good taliban you see though.

Thanks.:usflag:

keep providing the UAV real-time intell and all will be well !;)
 
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MastanKhan, you first deny the enemy space to operate in and build intel networks to get to the leaders. We are in first phase right now. First of all. this is not a typical insurgency led by one or two leaders. This is an ideological battle with terrorism as the tactic being used. You have to understand what the fight is, before commenting on it.

All the rest of your post is ranting in frustration for whatever reason.

Sir,

This movie has been running for a long time---reading your comments---seems like you just got into the theatre after the half time---no disrespect meant.

There was no such issue when the al qaeda were running into pak---the only thing that oak needed to do was change its objective in mid-stride---that is make a 180 deg turn in policy and action against those running into pakistan.

In order for you to change your stride---people need to be trained to do that---the mind has to be prepared and made ready to act and react under diverse and less than favourable conditions---you got to learn to stop on a dime---take a breath---analyze the situation and re-direct your resources.

Whic basically is a totally foreign language to pakistanis---possibly most of them---and pak millitary is no different---the fruit doenot fall too far from the tree.

" One fish dirties the pond "----one fanatic corrupts the minds of many---. This [problem we have just didnot errupt like that---we let the kettle boil---we let the bitterness stew over for years---for the small things that we didnot do---for the small leaks that we didnot plug in time---the dam walls have burst and the water is gushing out---.

Where was TTP in 2002---nowhere---if al qaeda was rounded out at tora bora and OBL and all his entourage taken out and neutralized / executed at the base of those mountains, some would have cried----but we let the wound fester---due to our millitary complacency---we started getting the drone strikes on our land---just like there were innocent people killed in air strikes in afg---similiarly there were innocent killed in pak as well---this was the recipe for the ultimate disaster for paklistan.

Did the majoprity of pak see it coming----no they had their heads buried in sand---they had a famous saying---" these are our muslim brothers---they won't turn on us "---guess what---.

The game of playing it CUTE by the pak army for 7 years has done some serious damage to the welfare of the country---it has opened up the flanks of paks foreign affairs and economy to any strikes from our arch nemesis.

What do you say of a nation---on whose borders, there is enemy ready to pounce---and the citizens are going around in ruthless abundance in anti state demos---burning and destroying national properties---taking out processions and stopping the workings of the govt, the daily business in wheel jam strikes.

Fatman17,

Thankyou for putting something in your own words except for paste and post.

What do the youth of the country know----only hatred and dislike of the u s---the youth and men are clueless of what the reality is---it is like blind leading the blind---pak youth say---pak millitary is doing a great job---wow---when did the youth and men of pak become so intellectually conscious to see and differentiate reality from obsession---what is the right word for it---one part praising the other!

Young men of pak normally have the mental capability of adolescent teenagers---majority stays at the capacity of 20--25 years old mentality till they grow old---they are like little children, who cannot speak up or speak out until their daddy's or mommy's give them permission---.

In pakistan it is age old practise---go to the street corner and see what people are saying---well, that goes well when discussing the issues of your village in the local meeting----when the world powers are involved, and the nation is right in the middle of the bright lights that are disecting and probing our weak points and weaknesses---it is the job of the leaders of the nation and intellectual to take the attention and focus away from the things that are making the rest of the world weary of us----but no ---the great pakistani youth and men are trying every bit possible to keep those items out in the open for as long as possible---men are clueless how to act like men and youth are full of bravado---other than that, it is a sorry state of affars.

The nation didnot have to suffer as much as it is suffering---the only thing that we had to realize on DAY + 1 was that al qaeda was the enemy---and every member of the al qaeda coming down from the mountain needed to be executed right then and there---muslim brotherhood be dam-ned----pakistan first---and pakistan last. The arabs and chechens and egyptians and somalis and yemenes and everone else had to be taken out---there remain buried on the hills---pakistan needed to take it losses of losing the mujahideen in stride---move ahead with life---in other times there would be other resources available to wage war---.

One who loves and runs away---will live to love another day.
 
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MastanKhan,
Can you summarize your comments in bullet points and please write in proper English so I actually have an idea about what you're talking about? No offense, but right now your post is all over the place and I'm having a hard time figuring out what your argument or point is.

Thank you

Back to my point, which may address your post as well...Any of the leaders caught or killed in Sawat were after they were boxed in and situation was created well enough that intel could create their local networks. That is only possible when the locals are with the government and have confidence that the military will help them. That atmosphere needs to be created in FATA as well now.

Just look at the capture of Abdul Shah Mehsud, TTP commander. That would not have been possible even a motn ago, as no informer, no matter how much money would have come forward. The battlefield has to be shaped to suit the victor and that is true for both conventional and unconventional war.

Pak could not have afforded to go head to head with all taliban and AQ factions escaping the US invasion in 2001. That would have been suicide. The local population would have immediately sided with the escaping talibs/AQ due to anti-US sentiments. Even inside the PA. that would have been very difficult to enact as policy.

For some of you things are moving too slowly and this is true, they are, but it is for a reason. Running blindly into the fight like a mad mullah is a good way to die. So, no, PA was not playing it cute since 2001. It was playing it smart based on the publics mood and resources available.
 
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Calvin Woodward, Associated Press Writer – AP

WASHINGTON – Osama bin Laden was unquestionably within reach of U.S. troops in the mountains of Tora Bora when American military leaders made the crucial and costly decision not to pursue the terrorist leader with massive force, a Senate report says.

The report asserts that the failure to kill or capture bin Laden at his most vulnerable in December 2001 has had lasting consequences beyond the fate of one man. Bin Laden's escape laid the foundation for today's reinvigorated Afghan insurgency and inflamed the internal strife now endangering Pakistan, it says.

Staff members for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Democratic majority prepared the report at the request of the chairman, Sen. John Kerry, as President Barack Obama prepares to boost U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

The Massachusetts senator and 2004 Democratic presidential candidate has long argued the Bush administration missed a chance to get the al-Qaida leader and top deputies when they were holed up in the forbidding mountainous area of eastern Afghanistan only three months after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Although limited to a review of military operations eight years old, the report could also be read as a cautionary note for those resisting an increased troop presence there now.

More pointedly, it seeks to affix a measure of blame for the state of the war today on military leaders under former president George W. Bush, specifically Donald H. Rumsfeld as defense secretary and his top military commander, Tommy Franks.

"Removing the al-Qaida leader from the battlefield eight years ago would not have eliminated the worldwide extremist threat," the report says. "But the decisions that opened the door for his escape to Pakistan allowed bin Laden to emerge as a potent symbolic figure who continues to attract a steady flow of money and inspire fanatics worldwide. The failure to finish the job represents a lost opportunity that forever altered the course of the conflict in Afghanistan and the future of international terrorism."

The report states categorically that bin Laden was hiding in Tora Bora when the U.S. had the means to mount a rapid assault with several thousand troops at least. It says that a review of existing literature, unclassified government records and interviews with central participants "removes any lingering doubts and makes it clear that Osama bin Laden was within our grasp at Tora Bora."

On or about Dec. 16, 2001, bin Laden and bodyguards "walked unmolested out of Tora Bora and disappeared into Pakistan's unregulated tribal area," where he is still believed to be based, the report says.

Instead of a massive attack, fewer than 100 U.S. commandos, working with Afghan militias, tried to capitalize on air strikes and track down their prey.

"The vast array of American military power, from sniper teams to the most mobile divisions of the Marine Corps and the Army, was kept on the sidelines," the report said.

At the time, Rumsfeld expressed concern that a large U.S. troop presence might fuel a backlash and he and some others said the evidence was not conclusive about bin Laden's location.
 
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Calvin Woodward, Associated Press Writer – AP

WASHINGTON – Osama bin Laden was unquestionably within reach of U.S. troops in the mountains of Tora Bora when American military leaders made the crucial and costly decision not to pursue the terrorist leader with massive force, a Senate report says.

The report asserts that the failure to kill or capture bin Laden at his most vulnerable in December 2001 has had lasting consequences beyond the fate of one man. Bin Laden's escape laid the foundation for today's reinvigorated Afghan insurgency and inflamed the internal strife now endangering Pakistan, it says.

Staff members for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Democratic majority prepared the report at the request of the chairman, Sen. John Kerry, as President Barack Obama prepares to boost U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

The Massachusetts senator and 2004 Democratic presidential candidate has long argued the Bush administration missed a chance to get the al-Qaida leader and top deputies when they were holed up in the forbidding mountainous area of eastern Afghanistan only three months after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Although limited to a review of military operations eight years old, the report could also be read as a cautionary note for those resisting an increased troop presence there now.

More pointedly, it seeks to affix a measure of blame for the state of the war today on military leaders under former president George W. Bush, specifically Donald H. Rumsfeld as defense secretary and his top military commander, Tommy Franks.

"Removing the al-Qaida leader from the battlefield eight years ago would not have eliminated the worldwide extremist threat," the report says. "But the decisions that opened the door for his escape to Pakistan allowed bin Laden to emerge as a potent symbolic figure who continues to attract a steady flow of money and inspire fanatics worldwide. The failure to finish the job represents a lost opportunity that forever altered the course of the conflict in Afghanistan and the future of international terrorism."

The report states categorically that bin Laden was hiding in Tora Bora when the U.S. had the means to mount a rapid assault with several thousand troops at least. It says that a review of existing literature, unclassified government records and interviews with central participants "removes any lingering doubts and makes it clear that Osama bin Laden was within our grasp at Tora Bora."

On or about Dec. 16, 2001, bin Laden and bodyguards "walked unmolested out of Tora Bora and disappeared into Pakistan's unregulated tribal area," where he is still believed to be based, the report says.

Instead of a massive attack, fewer than 100 U.S. commandos, working with Afghan militias, tried to capitalize on air strikes and track down their prey.

"The vast array of American military power, from sniper teams to the most mobile divisions of the Marine Corps and the Army, was kept on the sidelines," the report said.

At the time, Rumsfeld expressed concern that a large U.S. troop presence might fuel a backlash and he and some others said the evidence was not conclusive about bin Laden's location.



Hi,

I put this news on another section----anyway---replace the name of the u s with pakistan and the same story emerges as well.


Slides,

I am sorry that you didnot get the gist of my post---so here it is-----paks are less understanding---they have a very difficult time understanding and grasping of situations that have emerged out of nowhere at a lightening speed that go against the grain of their beliefs---right away they go into a protective mode and shut away the world and what is happening around them---they also shut away any modicum of advice and direction from its welwishers.


Like a normal pakistani comment---" A MUSLIM CANNOT DO THAT " or " IT IS UN-ISLAMIC "----it is a statement that you hear often---in all places and all gatherings---seems like the whole of the nation is living in 'ether'----yes---THE MUSLIM WILL DO THAT---YES IT IS ISLAMIC---BECAUSE IF IT WAS UN-ISLAMIC the muslim will not do that.

The first step in taking responsibility is to accept--YES THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG---next step is to take the the steps in the right direction to make the wrong right.

It has taken 7 years for the paks to accept that there is something wrong---7 long years to find out that the suicide bombers will come and bomb them to oblivion---7 long years it has taken for the paks to find out that they are not even considered muslims by these fanatics---these fanatics and fundos, don't even consider the population of pakistan as of the same faith----these fundos don't care about the life and happiness of the 16 crore awam---it has taken this long for an everyday average pakistani to come to the realization---7 long years to open your eyes---.

But there are a few, who have a different vision----to them, it was visible in the first nano second on Day + 1 in 2002, what was going to come out of this situation---for them, it was written in day light on the bright blue skies what the outcome would be.

The paks also read the writing---the eyes saw it, but the mind created an illusion---an illusion that lead to self-denial---self annihilation---.

I know what you are saying---that now the army is ready---for you---it has taken 7 years of time to acknowledge the fact---for me, it was instantaneous---the only difference is that you were travelling at your pace of understanding and I was travelling at my pace of reaction----sometimes you are the ball---sometimes you are the bat----sometimes you are the fly---sometimes you are the swat.

The problem over here is that pak has intentionally been the fly and the ball---that is the option they chose to be.

The higher ups in the army knew what was acoming---they just made bad decisions---they just wanted to milk the u s for as much as they could, and they failed in that as well as their war on terror.

They made a very very poor deal with the u s right from gitgo---we know there was the genuine fear of being bombed to kingdom come---agreed---but nobody stopped pak to make a better deal with the americans---instead of getting paid at the end of the year for the logistic support---pak should have asked for 1 billion dollars in advance right upfront, trwo sqdrnds of F 16's within the first 6 months etc etc etc---and then at the end of the year and every year after that 1 billion dollars to be deposited in an escrow account for pakistan to be realed after the submission of receipts of the first expense---.

There have been a myraid and one failures of paks---instead of coming out of this fiasco and smelling like roses---the pakistanis chose to come out of it like a pariah nation smelling like the opposite of roses---yo get my drift.

Progressive nations don't work and operate like that---they have systems in place that are ready to take advantage of change in environement on the run.

Paks are a very clever people inherently---but tragically only a minority is intelligent. Clever people are always ready to take advantage of personal gains, they are always ready to blame all and sundry for any problems, they are ready to make their personal escapes and leave everyone else in limbo. Clever people have no clear vision of an overall progressive picture of the nation---they live in their self induced dellusions of glory and grandeur, their valour is in spurts momentary bursts---they believe that in the moment of crisis, the un-prepared will all get together one day and take out the enemy.

On the other hand hand, intelligent people have a different view of the nation. They are futuristic, they believe in the welbeing of all and sundry, they are pro-active in their approach, they are not self centered and self serving, they consider the nation first and foremost and do things to make the motherland a better place. They are not a me-first crowd---but rather a we and us crowd.

They would do anything to keep the nation away from being cornered into a position from where it could not deal with strength. That is the biggest problem in this scenario---pakistan has been let down one more time by its citizens with a less than a visionary approach.

Any ordinary people and any ordinary nation would have done the same thing that pakistan, the pakistani govt, the pakistani generals and the pakistani public has done---there are no kudos for being ordinary---.

Under these trying times and extraordinary circumstances---it is a tragedy that pakistanis have chosen to stay ordinary. There reaction is of sad and sorry excuses all the times---it is a travesty.
 
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MK,
So, what you're talking about is how society that was bred to love taliban and jihadis for 20+ years is now having a hard time understanding that these people Pakistan supported previously are the enemies? Is that your entire argument?

If so, than you're obviously correct, a 180 deg u-turn cannot happen overnight and must happen slowly, which is why PA did not go guns blazing in to FATA in 2001. Do you understand how much of a disaster that would have been? Even if we had gone into Sawat in 2007 with Mullah FM first became popular, we would have LOST, because the people were not fed up of TTP by then.

Your statement is more about how frustrated you are with Pakistani society and has very little to do with this brilliant general who you dislike for NO good reason at all. You have to understand that the army cannot turn the switch on and off for what the public believes.

No one is hiding their heads in the sand. Everyone is acting methodically and with a plan. This is not the time to act like a mad mullah or you end up with operation searchlight in Dhaka.

I hope this is clear enough for you.
 
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Slides,

I am sorry that you didnot get the gist of my post---so here it is-----paks are less understanding---they have a very difficult time understanding and grasping of situations that have emerged out of nowhere at a lightening speed that go against the grain of their beliefs---right away they go into a protective mode and shut away the world and what is happening around them---they also shut away any modicum of advice and direction from its welwishers.


Like a normal pakistani comment---" A MUSLIM CANNOT DO THAT " or " IT IS UN-ISLAMIC "----it is a statement that you hear often---in all places and all gatherings---seems like the whole of the nation is living in 'ether'----yes---THE MUSLIM WILL DO THAT---YES IT IS ISLAMIC---BECAUSE IF IT WAS UN-ISLAMIC the muslim will not do that.

Mastan Khan

It’s so true. You are playing a flute in front of the buffalo. In my opinion, you are just wasting your precious time. Your English writing is too much for someone, as is visible from the quote, and probably went over someone’s head. I would suggest that you lower the standard of you English writing to a ‘desi’ level where someone with low IQ can also understand the theme of your post. Accepting reality is not in someone’s dictionary and someone will continue to show ostrich style rigid mentality which is no less than the mentality of Taliban’s. So, instead of convincing someone with the reality, let someone continue to live in fools’ land.

My only concern is for the young army officers and jawans who are paying with their lives for the mistakes of Mush and cronies. My heart goes for their families. You know, there was a time when one could have arrested this Mullah of Swat by sending just two policemen but no one did. And same goes for the Lal Masjid fiasco, and hence all these suicide bombings. This was done to milk money from USA and others. As far as Pakistani people are concerned, I care less for them. They are always right and will get into a defensive mode anytime one tries to point a weakness.
 
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MK,
So, what you're talking about is how society that was bred to love taliban and jihadis for 20+ years is now having a hard time understanding that these people Pakistan supported previously are the enemies? Is that your entire argument?

If so, than you're obviously correct, a 180 deg u-turn cannot happen overnight and must happen slowly, which is why PA did not go guns blazing in to FATA in 2001. Do you understand how much of a disaster that would have been? Even if we had gone into Sawat in 2007 with Mullah FM first became popular, we would have LOST, because the people were not fed up of TTP by then.

Your statement is more about how frustrated you are with Pakistani society and has very little to do with this brilliant general who you dislike for NO good reason at all. You have to understand that the army cannot turn the switch on and off for what the public believes.

No one is hiding their heads in the sand. Everyone is acting methodically and with a plan. This is not the time to act like a mad mullah or you end up with operation searchlight in Dhaka.

I hope this is clear enough for you.

Thanyou Slides,

Now we are getting to know each other---the average pakistani is not programmed for it---but the army general---that is a part of his job to make an assessment within the blink of an eye and make that 180 deg turn about. Isn't that what a general does when he finds the enemy not showing up in the front but on his flanks.

Pak had all the time to adjust its millitary policy after 9/11---they were very very clear what the u s was planning to do---they knew very well what the capabilities and the abilities of the u s armed forces were---but the only problem they had was to know when to ' cut off the umbilical cord '.

People werre so deep down into the intricacies of the practise of ' pukhtunwali ' that they lost focus of the live picture that was playing right in front of their faces---Fazalullah and faqir and others were not even an issue in 2002---the al qaeda was on the run and they were the target and they needed to be bagged at the base of the mountain.

All this ttp and the rest of the shenanigans are things that came up later.

Secondly---the army---the intelligence dept is supposedly an expert in feeding whatever information to the public through its political wing---they had to market the identity of pakistan first and pakistani first---they news media should ahev been filled statements to preserve the integrity of the state at the expense of the execution of the non state actors of al qaeda---.

Armies don't loose battles on their own grounds---there should have been a media circus o malign the pakistani public against the al qaeda and taliban---pak govt should have used some paid experts---we are talking about 2002 till 2005----when all was in control---it only needed the execution by force---that was the time when the millitary was playing the game with pakistan and the u s.
 
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