Gen Petraeus Debunks Allegations of Duplicity Against Pakistan

[TMA]

I am not sure what Iblees has to do with my point.

You used the logic of Dajjal to justify lack of recognition of Israel. I pointed out to you the relevant hadith that disclose the point of origin of Dajjal and identity of his true followers. I know man, truth is often hard to digest. Good luck.

It seems you missed my point.
Let me explain.
Incorrect methodology would be take that ayah alone and then come to the conclusion that Iblis was/is an angel.
Correct methodology would be to take all ayahs about Iblis and even all ahadith about Iblis and integrate them into a whole and then come to a conclusion (which would be that he is from the jinn).

http://www.sahihmuslim.com/sps/smm/sahihmuslim.cfm?scn=dspchaptersfull&BookID=41&ChapterID=1212

Have you read about the ahadith in which the the Last Prophet (PBUH) suspecting a young adolescent of being Dajjal?

The logical implication of this is that if the Prophet (PBUH) suspected someone of being Dajjal in his time, then Dajjal must have already been released (and the Prophet was not in Persia).

To come to the correct conclusion regarding Dajjal and the broader subject of eschatology and indeed any subject, one needs to integrate all the pieces of info regarding a particular subject and then come to a conclusion.
The Quran teaches such a methodology (the simple example I gave about Iblis).

There is a hadith that Gog and Magog will come after the return of the Son of Mary (PBUH).
So many Muslims say that as the return has not happended yet therefore Gog and Magog are not out.
However there are other ahadtih which say that Gog and Magog first came out when the Prophet (PBUH) was still alive.
Other ahadith mention Gog and Magog will drink from Lake Tiberius and when the last of Gog and Magog come to Lake Tiberius they will say where is the water. (Lake Tiberius is past the point of no return now).

Correct methodology would come to the conclusion that the first wave of Gog and Magog came out at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and the last wave will still come out even after the return of the Messiah (PBUH).
Allama Iqbal recognized that Gog and Magog were out when the British "liberated" Jerusalem in 1917 or thereabouts.

 

[LeGenD]

It seems you missed my point.
Let me explain.
Incorrect methodology would be take that ayah alone and then come to the conclusion that Iblis was/is an angel.
Correct methodology would be to take all ayahs about Iblis and even all ahadith about Iblis and integrate them into a whole and then come to a conclusion (which would be that he is from the jinn).

http://www.sahihmuslim.com/sps/smm/sahihmuslim.cfm?scn=dspchaptersfull&BookID=41&ChapterID=1212

Have you read about the ahadith in which the the Last Prophet (PBUH) suspecting a young adolescent of being Dajjal?

The logical implication of this is that if the Prophet (PBUH) suspected someone of being Dajjal in his time, then Dajjal must have already been released (and the Prophet was not in Persia).

To come to the correct conclusion regarding Dajjal and the broader subject of eschatology and indeed any subject, one needs to integrate all the pieces of info regarding a particular subject and then come to a conclusion.
The Quran teaches such a methodology (the simple example I gave about Iblis).

There is a hadith that Gog and Magog will come after the return of the Son of Mary (PBUH).
So many Muslims say that as the return has not happended yet therefore Gog and Magog are not out.
However there are other ahadtih which say that Gog and Magog first came out when the Prophet (PBUH) was still alive.
Other ahadith mention Gog and Magog will drink from Lake Tiberius and when the last of Gog and Magog come to Lake Tiberius they will say where is the water. (Lake Tiberius is past the point of no return now).

Correct methodology would come to the conclusion that the first wave of Gog and Magog came out at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and the last wave will still come out even after the return of the Messiah (PBUH).
Allama Iqbal recognized that Gog and Magog were out when the British "liberated" Jerusalem in 1917 or thereabouts.

I understand all that, nicely put.

Of-course, Dajjal is likely to emerge under a certain set of circumstances. When we talk about such circumstances, one of the observations is that it would be a period of great turmoil, and we are already witnessing a phase of great turmoil in our times. However, Dajjal is a phenomenon of great deception. The narrative that Israel has a connection with Dajjal is too predictable, and not something that can make even the momins question there faith, let alone deceiving the public.

However, if Dajjal is to emerge from Khorasan, now that is a true shocker and eye-opener for us, Muslims; and a large number of Muslims are not ready to embrace this revelation yet. So try to understand what I am asserting. Israel's re-emergence in our times could be a coincidence and some so-called Islamic scholars are trying to sell the narrative that this is a sign of emergence of Dajjal in our times because his followers would be primarily Jewish, and the gullible masses are falling for it because their is a lack of promotion of "critical thinking" in Islamic circles. This is similar to how people in power manipulated the masses in earlier times by selling their narrative to them (no matter how misleading) to make themselves relevant and/or for political gains.

Holy Prophet (PBUH) hinted that Iraq and Syria will become victims of great turmoil at some point in the future; we witnessed this in our times, right?

Holy Prophet (PBUH) have also hinted that Dajjal will emerge from the land of Khorasan and 70,000 (Iranian) Jews will be his true followers. Now, of-course, one needs to count the number of Iranian Jews at this hour to figure out how far we are from this development. However, with the magnitude of secrecy in Iran and its penchant towards censorship and propaganda, this would be a difficult task. However, it is true that Jews remain spread all over the world: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

Do you know that Iranians do not treat their sunni brethren in the country equally? That sunni do not have the right to create their own mosques and practice their beliefs properly in that country? That they glorify murderers of some great caliphs? This Shia-Sunni turmoil is centuries old, my friend. And I suspect that Dajjal will be a form of punishment for us.

 

[TMA]

I understand all that, nicely put.

Of-course, Dajjal is likely to emerge under a certain set of circumstances. Regarding circumstances, one of the observations is that it would be a period of great turmoil, and we are already witnessing a phase of great turmoil in our times. However, Dajjal is a phenomenon of great deception. The narrative that Israel has a connection with Dajjal is too predictable, and not something that can make even the momins question there faith, let alone deceiving the public.

However, if Dajjal is to emerge from Khorasan, now that is a true shocker and eye-opener for us, Muslims. And a large number of Muslims are not ready to embrace this revelation yet. So try to understand what I am asserting. Israel's emergence could be a coincidence and some so-called Islamic scholars are trying to sell the narrative that this is a sign of emergence of Dajjal in our times, and the gullible masses are falling for it because their is a lack of promotion of critical thinking in Islamic circles. This is similar to how people in power manipulated the masses in earlier times to make themselves relevant and/or political gains.

Holy Prophet (PBUH) hinted that Iraq and Syria will become victims of great turmoil at some point in the future; we witnessed this in our times, right?

Holy Prophet (PBUH) have also hinted that Dajjal will emerge from Khorasan and 70,000 (Iranian) Jews will be his true followers. Now, of-course, one needs to count the number of Iranian Jews at this hour to figure out how far we are from this development. However, with the magnitude of secrecy in Iran and its penchant towards censorship and propaganda, this would be a difficult task.

Do you know that Iranians do not treat their sunni brethren in the country equally? That sunni do not have the right to create this own mosques and practice their beliefs properly in that country? That they glorify murderers of some great caliphs? This Shia-Sunni turmoil is centuries old, my friend. And I suspect that it Dajjal will be a form of punishment for us.

I get what you are saying and I know the situation is not great for Sunnis in Iran. Indeed Iran will play a role in this tumultous age and Dajjal will have something to do with this. Indeed Imran Hosein feels that Dajjal is behind the Sunni-Shia schism or is at least one element of it.

Coming back to Dajjal proper: what is his mission? This will also help understand this decpetive issue. If it is to impersonate the True Messiah then he needs to rule the world from Jerusalem and he needs to convince the Children of Israel that he is the true Messiah. So it does not matter where he comes from, even if it is Japan as he will need to rule from Jerusalem which is now occupied by imposter Israel. Hence the link of recognizing Israel and Dajjal and Shirk.

But coming back to methodology we must INTEGRATE the totality of the data on a subject and then come to the conclusion.
Now it may be that he emerges in our dimension of space and time from Khorasan as a descendant of Israel and is followed by Iranian Jews but he will still want to rule from Jerusalem not Tehran or Kabul. This is not to say that he is not already out and at work from different dimensions of space and time, as other ahadith allude to. You know he will spend a day like a year, then a day like a month, then a day like a week and then like your days...
Also do not forget the story of Tameem al Daari and the hariy creature on an island and their meeting with Dajjal...Khorasan is not an island.

 

[Solomon2]

You are essentially making the same point I did - that there is no credible evidence of Pakistani duplicity/complicity.

The difference is that the path to that conclusion is different and thus so is the course of action that follows the conclusion: there may be no evidence, but suspicion against Pakistan is undiminished.

Trying to establish guilt by claiming that the party alleged to have committed the crimes is 'extremely skilled at hiding all evidence of the crime' is ludicrous. It's no different from the claims made by some Pakistanis that the US is behind terrorism in Pakistan and 'just really skilled at hiding its involvement'.

And no different from the claim that "Zionists" must be responsible for x or y ills suffered by Palestinians or Muslims.

These officials have collectively spent many decades working to destroy al Qaeda, and many are deeply suspicious of Pakistan for its continuing support for elements of the Taliban. But all of them told me in one form or another that Pakistani officials had no clue that bin Laden was living in Abbottabad."

Part of the explanation may be in the different ways Pakistanis and Americans process and interpret information. Both Ps and As apply inferential logic based on experience.

For example, an American traveling to Pakistan who sees that every move of his is noted by the police may naturally conclude that nothing any foreigner does in Pakistan goes unnoticed by the security forces, hence Pakistani officials must have known about OBL. That works if, as in American experience, police treat people equally regardless of origin or religion or skin color and you apply that experience to Pakistan. However, if you're someone like me who has conversed with Pakistanis via social media for years, then you realize Pakistanis are far more religiously biased and xenophobic than Americans, and thus the close attentions received by Pakistani security may be on that basis, rather than the more sensible who-may-be-committing-a-crime that American police look for, hence something like OBL hanging out in Abbottabad could pass entirely unnoticed by Pakistani officials!

That said, I don't believe in it much. Pakistan's true feelings about OBL's assassination were revealed by its shabby treatment of Dr. Shakil Afridi, falsely accusing him of being a spy, terrorist agent, and saboteur rather than as a hero, bystander, or unwitting tool. The lasting lesson to such treatment is that Pakistanis know that reporting any terrorist activity in Pakistan carries risks, for only Pakistani authorities may decide when terrorist activity should cease, not foreign leaders and not Pakistanis themselves.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

All the best for General Petraeus , he understands the ground realities of the region and Pakistani Military help in counter Terrorism

He might be able to inform Trump on realities of the region better vs News person

His preception coming into mix of things is due to media coverage once he will communicate with more Established people in Military such as General Petraeus , I think his preception will change to understand the deep role and professional setup we have

It was shocking how he was fired (decorated fired) after successful mission in Afghanistan helping curb terrorism (obviously also due to help from Pakistani Military)

Before he was relieved of his role I do recall he openly called out the Government (USA) that they really have no clue what is happening on the ground level

 

[Tiger Genie]

No sane person can have honest discussion with filth like you people really. Utterly shameless. Thank God we are looking Westwards and will be dealing with reasonable people.

frothing and lashing out is a common trait among losers. Hillary Clinton is said to have tossed a few vases when she realized she lost. You are thankfully lot less dramatic.

 

[LeGenD]

I get what you are saying and I know the situation is not great for Sunnis in Iran. Indeed Iran will play a role in this tumultous age and Dajjal will have something to do with this. Indeed Imran Hosein feels that Dajjal is behind the Sunni-Shia schism or is at least one element of it.

Coming back to Dajjal proper: what is his mission? This will also help understand this decpetive issue. If it is to impersonate the True Messiah then he needs to rule the world from Jerusalem and he needs to convince the Children of Israel that he is the true Messiah. So it does not matter where he comes from, even if it is Japan as he will need to rule from Jerusalem which is now occupied by imposter Israel. Hence the link of recognizing Israel and Dajjal and Shirk.

But coming back to methodology we must INTEGRATE the totality of the data on a subject and then come to the conclusion.
Now it may be that he emerges in our dimension of space and time from Khorasan as a descendant of Israel and is followed by Iranian Jews but he will still want to rule from Jerusalem not Tehran or Kabul. This is not to say that he is not already out and at work from different dimensions of space and time, as other ahadith allude to. You know he will spend a day like a year, then a day like a month, then a day like a week and then like your days...

My friend, nobody properly understands the deception of Dajjal. At present, it is mostly conjecture based on legends and/or revelations in some hadith. Even in the case of hadith, we have interpretation of sayings of Holy Prophet (PBUH) from other individuals. These interpretations were recorded a long time after the death of Holy Prophet (PBUH). This is not to say that the events foretold by Holy Prophet (PBUH) are not to materialize or haven't; but in what manner, is the question. Normally, when an event (of great significance) materializes, there is little effort to identify it as one of the foretold signs of the hour at that time. Typically, it is recognized as one after years of assessment. A reason is that most of the interpretations are archaic in description, and very difficult to re-interpret in modern context before the relevant event materializes.

We have a pointer that Dajjal will emerge from Khorasan, and 70,000 Jews of Persian origin would be his primary followers. Now, how he would gain prominence and what would be the situation of the Middle East at that time, is largely unknown to us at the moment. Perhaps, Israeli citizens will welcome him; perhaps not. According to a hadith, Dajjal will perish in a location in Israel, and this might be due to a turn of events that may lead to that (e.g. re-emergence of Hazrat Issa (PBUH) and his recognition as such in Israel). In the end, this is a matter of conjecture and interpretation.

Now, on purely humanitarian grounds, you don't think that Jews have the right to have a state of their own? This world is for all humans, not just Muslims. They have inhabited the land of Palestine for centuries, and they had their own kingdom in the region back then. When modern state of Israel came into existence in 1948, it was recognized by the US on the same day. However, Arabs were not thinking clearly back then and attempted to destroy Israel; this backfired, and Israel annexed more lands as a consequence (including Jerusalem). At present, Arabs are willing to recognize Israel if it reverts back to original borders. Ironic? Yes. Well, guess what? Turkey, Egypt and Jordan already have.

Also do not forget the story of Tameem al Daari and the hariy creature on an island and their meeting with Dajjal...Khorasan is not an island.

And it is a legend.

 

[TMA]

My friend, nobody properly understands the deception of Dajjal. At present, it is mostly conjecture based on legends and/or revelations in some hadith. Even in the case of hadith, we have interpretation of sayings of Holy Prophet (PBUH) from other individuals. These interpretations were recorded a long time after the death of Holy Prophet (PBUH). This is not to say that the events foretold by Holy Prophet (PBUH) are not to materialize or haven't; but in what manner, is the question. Normally, when an event (of great significance) materializes, there is little effort to identify it as one of the foretold signs of the hour at that time. Typically, it is recognized as one after years of assessment. A reason is that most of the interpretations are archaic in description, and very difficult to re-interpret in modern context before the relevant event materializes.

We have a pointer that Dajjal will emerge from Khorasan, and 70,000 Jews of Persian origin would be his primary followers. Now, how he would gain prominence and what would be the situation of the Middle East at that time, is largely unknown to us at the moment. Perhaps, Israeli citizens will welcome him; perhaps not. According to a hadith, Dajjal will perish in a location in Israel, and this might be due to a turn of events that may lead to that (e.g. re-emergence of Hazrat Issa (PBUH) and his recognition as such in Israel). In the end, this is a matter of conjecture and interpretation.

Now, on purely humanitarian grounds, you don't think that Jews have the right to have a state of their own? This world is for all humans, not just Muslims. They have inhabited the land of Palestine for centuries, and they had their own kingdom in the region back then. When modern state of Israel came into existence in 1948, it was recognized by the US on the same day. However, Arabs were not thinking clearly back then and attempted to destroy Israel; this backfired, and Israel annexed more lands as a consequence (including Jerusalem). At present, Arabs are willing to recognize Israel if it reverts back to original borders. Ironic? Yes. Well, guess what? Turkey, Egypt and Jordan already have.


And it is a legend.

Intrepretat

My friend, nobody properly understands the deception of Dajjal. At present, it is mostly conjecture based on legends and/or revelations in some hadith. Even in the case of hadith, we have interpretation of sayings of Holy Prophet (PBUH) from other individuals. These interpretations were recorded a long time after the death of Holy Prophet (PBUH). This is not to say that the events foretold by Holy Prophet (PBUH) are not to materialize or haven't; but in what manner, is the question. Normally, when an event (of great significance) materializes, there is little effort to identify it as one of the foretold signs of the hour at that time. Typically, it is recognized as one after years of assessment. A reason is that most of the interpretations are archaic in description, and very difficult to re-interpret in modern context before the relevant event materializes.

We have a pointer that Dajjal will emerge from Khorasan, and 70,000 Jews of Persian origin would be his primary followers. Now, how he would gain prominence and what would be the situation of the Middle East at that time, is largely unknown to us at the moment. Perhaps, Israeli citizens will welcome him; perhaps not. According to a hadith, Dajjal will perish in a location in Israel, and this might be due to a turn of events that may lead to that (e.g. re-emergence of Hazrat Issa (PBUH) and his recognition as such in Israel). In the end, this is a matter of conjecture and interpretation.

Now, on purely humanitarian grounds, you don't think that Jews have the right to have a state of their own? This world is for all humans, not just Muslims. They have inhabited the land of Palestine for centuries, and they had their own kingdom in the region back then. When modern state of Israel came into existence in 1948, it was recognized by the US on the same day. However, Arabs were not thinking clearly back then and attempted to destroy Israel; this backfired, and Israel annexed more lands as a consequence (including Jerusalem). At present, Arabs are willing to recognize Israel if it reverts back to original borders. Ironic? Yes. Well, guess what? Turkey, Egypt and Jordan already have.


And it is a legend.

Correct many of the ayahs and ahadith require interpretations to penetrate the reality of Dajjal. That is why the correct methodology is so important in this regard. Plus only those who have been endowed with knowledge (internal AND external) will have the capability.

Wherever Dajjal emerges from (in our dimension of space and time), be it Khorasan, his mission is to rule from Jerusalem (this does not require complex interpretation). Jerusalem is in imposter Israel. (The Messiah is going to rule the World from Jerusalem and in order for the false Messiah to convince Banu Israel and the rest of Mankind that he is the true Messiah, he must also rule from Jerusalem.)

Now I would not say that hadith are legends. The Story of Tameen ad Dari is found in ahadith and I would afford it greater relavance than mere legend.

Recognizing Israel is not like recognizing any other state. To do so would mean that one accepts that Israel is legitimate and their claim that the Lord God gave this Holy Land to the Children of Israel unconditionally and forever is true. Whereas in the Quran we found this not be.(It was conditional and they violated the contract).
It was the Lord God who had the the Children of Israel kicked out as a punishment nearly two thousand years ago.

On humanitarian grounds the people of Palestine have suffered immensely. If it was about giving a state to the Children of Israel, there were other options of territories which would not involve such oppression. I think the British thought of Uganda as a country for the Children of Israel however the Zionists could not accept this. (If they had accepted Uganda or indeed anywhere else but the Holy Land, then when the Dajjal came and he took rule over wherever the Jewish state was, no one would accept him to be the Messiah as he would not be ruling from Jerusalem).

I do not think that Pakistan should follow the examples of Jordan, Eygypt or Turkey based on the above.

My advice is to read the works of Sheikh Imran Hosein who is an expert of eschatology, especially on methodology.

 

[somebozo]

Here's part of Gen Petraeus' response: "I looked very very hard then (as US commander in Afghanistan) and again as CIA director at the nature of the relationship between the various (militant) groups in FATA and Baluchistan and the Pakistan Army and the ISI and I was never convinced of what certain journalists have alleged (about ISI support of militant groups in FATA).... I have talked to them (journalists) asked them what their sources are and I have not been able to come to grips with that based on what I know from these different positions (as US commander and CIA director)"

bIg slap for Indian media basically!

 

[RiazHaq]

#Russia rejects #Indian, #Afghan criticism on #Pakistan. #HeartofAsia #Modi #India https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/169900-Russia-rejects-Indian-Afghan-criticism-on-Pakistan …

Says Heart of Asia Conference shouldn’t be used for point scoring; if Russia doesn’t complain about India-US cooperation, then why complain about Pak-Russia cooperation

AMRITSAR: Russia on Sunday lauded Pakistan's stance at the Heart of Asia conference and said the agenda of the conference has not been hijacked.

Addressing the Heart of Asia Conference in Amritsar on Sunday, Russian envoy Zamir Kabulov rejected the Indian and Afghan criticism on Pakistan and said that Sartaj Aziz's speech at the conference was friendly and constructive. He said it is wrong to criticise Pakistan.

The Russian envoy said that Afghanistan is the pivot of Heart of Asia conference and the agenda of the conference has not been hijacked. He said being friends and supporters, we should avoid the blame game and work together.He said all parties involved in the war-torn country's reconstruction must work together and that the Heart of Asia was not the platform for India and Pakistan to score brownie points.

Downplaying Russia's military exercise with Pakistan held two months ago, Zamir Kabulov, who overseas Russia's engagement in Afghanistan, referred to India's increasing cooperation with the US.

“The HoA should not be used by India and Pakistan for scoring points,” he told reporters. He said bilateral issues should not cloud forums like the Heart of Asia.

Kabulov represented Russia in the Heart of Asia conference where he articulated Moscow's position on Afghanistan's transition. He said all the major players must extend all possible support to Afghanistan in its transition.

“India has close cooperation with the US, does Moscow complain? Then why complain about much lower level of cooperation with Pakistan,” he asked when referred to the Russia-Pakistan military exercise.

India has a strategic partnership with Afghanistan and is implementing projects worth $2 billion to help rebuild the country's infrastructure. The Heart of Asia-Istanbul Process was launched in 2011 and the participating countries include Pakistan, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, China, India, Iran, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan and the United Arab Emirates.

 

[T-72]

Petraeus is not going to make Sec of State. He's already hired two generals for top spots, unlikely to pick a third, spl this guy, a secrets leaker, which is probably a deal breaker. Trump does seem to hold him in very high regard though, who knows, he might tap him for another position, but not for this one.

 

[RiazHaq]

#Kashmir: Can #Trump solve one of the world’s most intractable conflicts? VP-Elect Pence says YES. http://qz.com/852853 via @qzindia

On NBC News’ Meet The Press on Dec. 04, Pence was pressed by journalist Chuck Todd on the incoming Trump administration’s stance on Pakistan. Here’s a transcript of the conversation:
Chuck Todd: So let me jump to Pakistan. The Pakistan prime minister on Thursday, here is the headline in the front page of the international news in Karachi, “Trump says ready to play role in resolution of issues.” So let me ask you, is he offering to mediate border disputes? The pri– I guess Pakistan wanted to imply that, that he was offering to mediate border disputes between Pakistan and India. Is that what he was trying to say?
Mike Pence: Well, clearly there’s been great tension between India and Pakistan in recent days. It’s resulted in violence along the Kashmir region. And I think what the president-elect expressed in conversations with leaders on both countries was a desire for continued US engagement on building the relationship with both of those countries. These are two nuclear powers–
Todd: Right.
Pence: –the president-elect recognises that. And making sure that, that they know that when this administration takes office, that we intend to be fully engaged in the region and fully engaged with both nations to advance peace and security.
Todd: To be a mediator in deciding Kashmir?
Pence: Well, I think, I think, I think in president-elect Donald Trump you’ve got someone who, who is prepared to advance America’s interests here at home, to rebuild this economy, to fight for American jobs. But I think you’re also going to see an energetic leadership in the world, prepared to engage and to look for ways that he can bring those extraordinary deal-making skills to bear on lessening tensions and solving problems in the world.

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-12-04-16-n691726