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Friendship with India

lol Joe it sounds rational to you only when you hear what you wish to hear.

but see what you i guess over looked is that i said "BOTH NATIONS" should work mutally and give each other space to breathe. neither party should try to over power the other.

the problem comes when one side tries to impose its views or wants the other to play second fiddle. this is NOT ACCEPTABLE to us and i am sure neither to you.

Good to know you speak Pakinternetese, the LOL language.

I'm slightly dazed and confused, but happy. Like that Chengdu guy. Whatever made it happen, it's fine.
 
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Good to know you speak Pakinternetese, the LOL language.

I'm slightly dazed and confused, but happy. Like that Chengdu guy. Whatever made it happen, it's fine.

Oh Joe; I need to tip my hat and send a LOL across to that.
Anyway I am still thinking about the Chengdu guy too.
 
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Good to know you speak Pakinternetese, the LOL language.

I'm slightly dazed and confused, but happy. Like that Chengdu guy. Whatever made it happen, it's fine.

the LOL comes from our sarcasitic sense of humor i guess. without that we feel the tone is just too straight forward and dead panned. you guys should lightne up to i guess it is good for health ;).

but good observation none the less mate!
 
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Hope you see this on your return, and have a safe trip.

Joe, sorry for the late response. I had to attend to pesky distractions like work and all...

At best you can argue incompetence on her part; what remains certain is her animosity to Pakistan and we believe she wasn't the last of the breed. Not by a long shot.

I see what you are writing, and am truly astonished.

Those of us who watched as the slick, smooth, well-groomed team of spin-meisters led by the Grand Wizard turned up in Simla pitied them. They had no cards to play, representing a shattered country, a shattered military, and hoping to recover 93,000 prisoners, half of them soldiers. They walked away with the most extraordinary, the most generous terms. Imagine what would have happened if the tables hd been turned. Actually, there is no need to imagine. Every young Pakistani poster never fails to remind us of the Roman attitude toward the defeated: vae victis. If we had applied that savage dictum, there would have fragments of Pakistan left. We did not, not because we are timorous, but because, as a nation, we reject the killer instinct. We are famously accused of this in sports. How strange that in the case of international relations, this national trait is known, recognized but never acknowledged. Scholars call it our habit of strategic restraint, and the cat-calls and jeers break out. Sadly, mostly from those who have benefited most from the trait.

I should say that far from displaying animosity, Indira Gandhi displayed a distinct magnanimity and humanistic breadth of vision. It is part of this same syndrome that after having done so, she is remembered by her greatest beneficiaries for her vindictive attitude, not for her forgiving, accommodating actions.


While I don't dispute your statement, my claim is a more general observation that (almost) all countries engage in illicit conduct through unsavory middlemen. Pakistan gets put on the spot now while India gets a pass, and it is taking full advantage of the situation. We don't blame India for being opportunistic, but it doesn't change the fact that India is engaged in a full diplomatic assault on Pakistan.

If I might parse this, and interpret the parsed version, our opposition has never been to Pakistan per se, but to policies of the Pakistani state that we find disturbing and barbaric. That particularly refers to your practice from the inception of pursuing national interests through covert murderous assaults on our unarmed citizenry.

Would you call this a diplomatic assault? Or opportunistic?


I saw that. Thanks.

By culture, I meant the wider "Indian" culture that we all share in south Asia. In terms of ethnicity, again, it's a relative concept consisting of an ever-widening circle. Pakistanis are ethnically closer to Kashmiris than to, say, Rwandans.

It's the old "think globally, act locally" concept.

I note this, with unrestrained admiration, and salute your dexterity with words. On the substance, permit me to reserve judgement.

If I were OJ, on trial for my life, with an open-and-shut case against me, I would have no hesitation engaging you as my attorney.


That is a very impressive and admirable program and I am not at all surprised that you would be involved with something like that. Best of luck.

Gives me a chance to put my money where my mouth is. And **** the Hindutvavadis.


While I fully accept that a sizable segment of the Indian population sees the Indian Muslims as equal citizens, I am not so sanguine about the future. This topic will take us into a whole other tangent so I don't want to belabor the point, but I feel that Indian secularism is under threat from a resurgent Indian nationalism that equates itself to Hinduism.

While much of this resurgence is an understandable desire to show the world what Indian/Hindu culture can achieve after being unshackled from centuries of foreign domination, there is a danger of it getting overzealous.

The Trojan horse used to bypass secular safeguards is the same one used in Europe -- religious bigotry disguised as cultural chauvinism.

You don't have to labour the point. I agree with you 100%.

In case you haven't noticed, half my time is spent resisting Hindutvavadis. Why do you think I feel paranoid about them?

Opportunistic politicians have been with us since the dawn of time, so I fully accept your claim. Also, not having been there, it's hard for me to comment on the ground realities of the Hindu/Muslim relationship in that era.

My recommendation to address Kashmir (and the Indian relationship in general) through non-military means has an element of morality as well. Achieving one's goals through killing may be unavoidable at times, but it shouldn't be the first resort. If Pakistan can achieve its objectives vis-a-vis India through diplomatic and media pressure, then so much the better.

Point well made. A fair point, at that, although we may differ on the extent and scope of the violence that you are referring to. Essentially, all right-thinking people must agree that the present situation is unacceptable.

Always a pleasure learning from you, Sir.
Unfortunately, I have to be off for a few days.

What was it about "a feast of reason, and a flow of soul"?
 
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there is no point trying to play friends! WHAT we should instead do is just let each other live! we don't need to be best of friends but we surely can give each other breathing space.

and that is good enough for both nations for the time being. maybe after a couple of decades both countries can expect to start discussing topics like sir creek or siachen or LoC. but for the next 20 years both nations should just concentrate on giving each other breathing space.

"AUR BHI GHUM HAI DUNIYA MEIN LADNAAY KAAY ILAWA"

You should go and tell this to your aakaas sitting in ISI/Army HQ who are non-stop sending terrorists and dreaming gazwa-e-hind type crap.

You started a fire to burn down India but the same fire is on you so burn.We would neither put petrol on you neither water.You are responsible for it and your degraded future.:smokin::flame:
 
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You should go and tell this to your aakaas sitting in ISI/Army HQ who are non-stop sending terrorists and dreaming gazwa-e-hind type crap.

You started a fire to burn down India but the same fire is on you so burn.We would neither put petrol on you neither water.You are responsible for it and your degraded future.:smokin::flame:

exactly the KIND of BULL that should NOT be taking place! and i guess the ISI and GHQ guys you see in sunny deol movies are only in sunny movies! and no where else!

but its ok you carry on trolling!
 
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exactly the KIND of BULL that should NOT be taking place! and i guess the ISI and GHQ guys you see in sunny deol movies are only in sunny movies! and no where else!

but its ok you carry on trolling!

Staying in DENIAL MODE is a classic trait of Pakistan and thats the reason you are in trouble.

So keep trolling and expecting a good future for your beloved "country" which will NEVER EVER come unless you stop radicalism and terrorism.
 
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LOL What abt Siachin?? if there was no Siachin saga then there had been no kargil.

BTW what abt Samjhota Express??

We captured and imprisoned the perpetrators of Samjhota without Pakistan's intervention or demand. We did not hesitate just because Purohit was IA or because Pragya Singh Thakur was a religious seminary affiliate. We didn't ask for any dossiers and justice was served within a year. So don't even go there..while your mard-e-momin Haffiz runs amock a free man.
 
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We captured and imprisoned the perpetrators of Samjhota without Pakistan's intervention or demand. We did not hesitate just because Purohit was IA or Sanghvi was a religious seminary affiliate. We didn't ask for any dossiers and justice was served within a year. So don't even go there..while your mard-e-momin Haffiz runs amock a free man.

RSS was responsible for it n is still on the loose.
 
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RSS was responsible for it n is still on the loose.

Not RSS, Abhinav Bharat...we didn't just ban them like you did with LeT, we imprisoned them and left them to rot. Thakur has cancer and she's been petitioning and we still won't let them out while your LeT just changed its name to JuD and continued its operations. Some RSS members petitioned for her and got booted for it. We don't treat them as heroes, we imprison and punish them. While you people lionize your "purisrar bandeys" like Haffiz. There is no comparison here whatsoever, and perhaps you are not aware but even VHP and Bajrang Dal members are rotting in prison, again we are not talking of comfortable house arrests like in your case with Haffiz, but full life term imprisonment. And then you have the temerity to even allude to any form of parity.
 
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Hope you see this on your return, and have a safe trip.

I only went away mentally (some would say long ago), but not physically.

Those of us who watched as the slick, smooth, well-groomed team of spin-meisters led by the Grand Wizard turned up in Simla pitied them. They had no cards to play, representing a shattered country, a shattered military, and hoping to recover 93,000 prisoners, half of them soldiers. They walked away with the most extraordinary, the most generous terms. Imagine what would have happened if the tables hd been turned. Actually, there is no need to imagine. Every young Pakistani poster never fails to remind us of the Roman attitude toward the defeated: vae victis. If we had applied that savage dictum, there would have fragments of Pakistan left. We did not, not because we are timorous, but because, as a nation, we reject the killer instinct. We are famously accused of this in sports. How strange that in the case of international relations, this national trait is known, recognized but never acknowledged. Scholars call it our habit of strategic restraint, and the cat-calls and jeers break out. Sadly, mostly from those who have benefited most from the trait.

I should say that far from displaying animosity, Indira Gandhi displayed a distinct magnanimity and humanistic breadth of vision. It is part of this same syndrome that after having done so, she is remembered by her greatest beneficiaries for her vindictive attitude, not for her forgiving, accommodating actions.

Skillfully argued, as always, but still no sale!

What you call magnanimity, or a self-effacing lack of killer instinct, can be interpreted alternatively as a masterstroke of Indian diplomacy. India had already achieved its goal of dissecting Pakistan so there was not much to be gained by any barbarity; especially since the eyes of the world were firmly on the scene. India preferred to walk away as the 'liberator' rather than sully the narrative with Indian barbarity.

Also, as far as West Pakistan was concerned, it was a clear red line for the US. Any major aggression by India would have drawn in the superpowers so, again, it wasn't a question of Indian magnanimity but pragmatism.

If I might parse this, and interpret the parsed version, our opposition has never been to Pakistan per se, but to policies of the Pakistani state that we find disturbing and barbaric. That particularly refers to your practice from the inception of pursuing national interests through covert murderous assaults on our unarmed citizenry.

Would you call this a diplomatic assault? Or opportunistic?

It is an opportunistic diplomatic assault because you have only presented half the picture. India also has a history of outsourcing terror, both with the LTTE and the Mukti Bahini.
 
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I only went away mentally (some would say long ago), but not physically.



Skillfully argued, as always, but still no sale!

What you call magnanimity, or a self-effacing lack of killer instinct, can be interpreted alternatively as a masterstroke of Indian diplomacy. India had already achieved its goal of dissecting Pakistan so there was not much to be gained by any barbarity; especially since the eyes of the world were firmly on the scene. India preferred to walk away as the 'liberator' rather than sully the narrative with Indian barbarity.

Also, as far as West Pakistan was concerned, it was a clear red line for the US. Any major aggression by India would have drawn in the superpowers so, again, it wasn't a question of Indian magnanimity but pragmatism.

Hmm. That begs the question: does magnanimity have to be hostile to one's own interest?

How nice it is when the noble way out is also the most practical way out. And who is to say which desire came first?

PS: This is without prejudice to any future objections to your slipping in that bit about India's goal being the dissection of Pakistan.
 
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I only went away mentally (some would say long ago), but not physically.

[...]

It is an opportunistic diplomatic assault because you have only presented half the picture. India also has a history of outsourcing terror, both with the LTTE and the Mukti Bahini.

Even if one were to accept your counter, and one doesn't (without prejudice to..etc., etc.), the difference is that in both the cases you have cited, India stepped in to rein in these entities, which were not being 'run' by Indian agencies, but had received some degree of Indian aid. The LTTE so far resented this restraint that it took violent counter-measures; we did not walk away from a bad situation but did what we could to hold the balance. So too in the case of the Mukti Bahini. It would not have escaped your attention that the whole reason at the outset to take and hold prisoners was to guarantee them their lives in the teeth of the universal hostility they faced. The smarmy insinuations of most of today's Bangladeshi members of PDF notwithstanding.

Pakistan's policies have no brakes, otoh.
 
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LOL What abt Siachin?? if there was no Siachin saga then there had been no kargil.

Siachen and Kargil have no parallel...In fact any parallel drawn in that regard is a mere face saving exercise...you need to read a bit more on history books before debating on this particular topic mate...
 
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