Friendship with India

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070

You must understand that you are dealing with the symptoms. The symptoms of an intractable and refractory malaise, one which leads a whole nation to believe that somehow they are God's blessing to this planet. Any proof, reference or sign to the contrary is relegated to the heap of conspiracy theories, theories which find ample oxygen and manure in the fertile minds of a frustrated populace. A populace which has seen its "best men" attempt at bringing a "vindictive" neighbor to its knees through righteous might. As these luminaries fail one by one and are relegated to ignominious defeat the only option left is then to do the following:-

1) Shift the goal posts in the following manner- "Kargil was not about capturing land to enforce negotiations on Siachen from a position of relative equality but was rather about getting eyes on a highway and bringing the issue of Kashmir to the forefront".

2) The age old Kansas city shuffle wherein "The baniyas were far too clever for us, consequently they got the mendacious Bengalis to rebel against their fair and bred on wheat masters.".

3) Externalizing the cause of the malaise wherein "the Americans have brought this upon us conveniently forgetting who it was that petitioned for their intervention and presence in the first place." (I would suggest a mandatory reading of "Friends Not Masters" authored by Ayub Khan for all the proponents of such a belief).

4) Finally when all else fails then a protracted claim of everything else being a part of the thousand year war against the oppression of the unbelievers (baniyas, jews and sundry).

You will be hard pressed to find anything that shall make them less intransigent and it would be an exercise in futility to even ponder over a possible mitigation of the aforementioned malaise. At best though, I for one cannot blame them for it- obstinacy, obdurateness and the pit they have been digging for themselves are all well in accordance with their fundamental rights as is their claim of "sovereignty".

You are right on all counts.

We have been dealing with all of this and kind of factored it in our calculus.

While it does put a break in our achieving our potential (to whatever small extent), we have mostly been able to take it in our stride and yet make progress (hampered more by internal issues than external).

All the issues you mention are true. Yet we have to look forward with hope that things can change. There is a large segment of Pakistanis who are also fed up of this mindless hostility that none of us chose.

If France and Germany (and rest of Europe) can move on after all that bitter history, we surely can too.

There are many reasons for us to despair. Only one to move forward.

 

[Bang Galore]

Still no reply to what Pakistanis think is a reasonable position to start negotiations on Kashmir. No reasoning on why India & Pakistan must come to an agreement, no position offered on why Siachen must be resolved in the manner that many Pakistanis are wont to ask. Nothing offered on what Pakistan brings to the table. Just the usual rhetoric.

 

[notsuperstitious]

What do you mean we should have demanded justice? We gave you that even without you asking for it.

He means India should have demanded court admissible foolproof evidence from Pakistan even though op was planned in India and allowed Abhinav Bharat to change the nameplate to their office to Abhiman Bharat and allowed full operations under the same people and done highfives with a smug face.

The term bloody logic comes alive when you talk to these people.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Still no reply to what Pakistanis think is a reasonable position to start negotiations on Kashmir. No reasoning on why India & Pakistan must come to an agreement, no position offered on why Siachen must be resolved in the manner that many Pakistanis are wont to ask. Nothing offered on what Pakistan brings to the table. Just the usual rhetoric.

Were you hoping to hear something different?
These discussions do not lead anywhere.

 

[Bang Galore]

Were you hoping to hear something different?
These discussions do not lead anywhere.

Based on past experience, not really. However I keep wondering what is that Pakistanis think on such issues. Everywhere & at every point, Pakistanis keep urging constantly that we should talk & negotiate a solution on Kashmir(as a whole) or Siachen or water etc but they seem to have no idea of what it is that they are supposed to be negotiating. All they seem to do is expect to be given something for nothing. We atleast know what the Musharraf-MMS deal entailed & most of us in India will learn to live with it. Pakistanis avoid any discussion on that agreement which almost happened & I keep wondering whether there is any point to negotiating a deal when there is no real backing for such an agreement from within Pakistan. You have to wonder whether that was the last straw on the camel's back & whether those negotiations (pure speculation on my part) resulted in Musharraf being left to fend for himself by the army. Convenient timing for Musharraf's ouster, don't you think. While I admit that this may be just speculation, the fact that so many Pakistanis here seem unable or unwilling to put forth a workable solution on Kashmir/Siachen outside of their maximalist positions is telling.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Based on past experience, not really. However I keep wondering what is that Pakistanis think on such issues. Everywhere & at every point, Pakistanis keep urging constantly that we should talk & negotiate a solution on Kashmir(as a whole) or Siachen or water etc but they seem to have no idea of what it is that they are supposed to be negotiating. All they seem to do is expect to be given something for nothing. We atleast know what the Musharraf-MMS deal entailed & most of us in India will learn to live with it. Pakistanis avoid any discussion on that agreement which almost happened & I keep wondering whether there is any point to negotiating a deal when there is no real backing for such an agreement from within Pakistan. You have to wonder whether that was the last straw on the camel's back & whether those negotiations (pure speculation on my part) resulted in Musharraf being left to fend for himself by the army. Convenient timing for Musharraf's ouster, don't you think. While I admit that this may be just speculation, the fact that so many Pakistanis here seem unable or unwilling to put forth a workable solution on Kashmir/Siachen outside of their maximalist positions is telling.

To try and define "what is that Pakistanis think on such issues" is itself a very difficult exercise. Most Pakistanis are unlikely to have much time to think on these matters (esp Kashmir) since they are beset with far more important and difficult existential matters to think about. Actually, in my view; Kashmir provides an ideal escape route to avoid thinking on those matters. It is only one segment in Pakistan that has continously been thinking about Kashmir; to the point of obsession. That is the Security Estt. there. Because it is a convenient 'hobby-horse' for them to ride. It is so easy to correlate the fear of losing PHK or of not gaining *** to the 'eternal chant' of "pakistan khatre main hai".
Ergo, "We (the Security Estt) can keep that khatra at bay, so we must be given Primacy in the scheme of things; in the country". That has been the Modus Operandi for 6 decades.

That fallacy has been propounded by the continuing refrain that "India poses an existential threat to Pakistan". That threat, if any; ended in 1971. Today's Indian security thinking NEEDS Pakistan to exist; as a buffer state. One hard-core retired Indian General (the most hawkish specimen that I could find, he probably got retired for that ) used the expression "Pakistan has as much utility as a minefield".
Which I consider to be the most obtuse view that I heard. But he was simply adding hyperbole to the more realistic view that I expressed earlier.

The irony of it is as India gets more stable and stronger (esp economically) it will have even much less incentive to consider either annexation or disappearance of Pakistan. That real-politik is the rationale behind whatever efforts that MMS or his Govt has been making to keep dialog going acroos the border and in its choice of interlocutor.

Even more ironically )) as the assymmetry between India and Pakistan increases; and I do not mean just military asymmetry but more importantly: Economic and Diplomatic asymmetry, India will feel even less compelled to indulge in 'Give and Take' on Kashmir.
The attitude will simply become "nothing is changing, so why bother. And it matters less and less, so let it be as-is-where-is".
So the Status Quo will persist, only all the means and ability to handle it will be augmented.

 

[surya kiran]

To try and define "what is that Pakistanis think on such issues" is itself a very difficult exercise. Most Pakistanis are likely to have much time to think on these matters (esp Kashmir) since they are beset with far more important and difficult existential matters to think about. Actually, in my view; Kashmir provides an ideal escape route to avoid thinking on those matters. It is only one segment in Pakistan that has continously been thinking about Pakistan; to the point of obsession. That is the Security Estt. there. Because it is a convenient 'hobby-horse' for them to ride. It is so easy to correlate the fear of losing PHK or of not gaining *** to the 'eternal chant' of "pakistan khatre main hai".
Ergo, "We (the Security Estt) can keep that khatra at bay, so we must be given Primacy in the scheme of things; in the country". That has been the Modus Operandi for 6 decades.

That fallacy has been propounded by the continuing refrain that "India poses an existential threat to Pakistan". That threat, if any; ended in 1971. Today's Indian security thinking NEEDS Pakistan to exist; as a buffer state. One hard-core retired Indian General (the most hawkish specimen that I could find, he probably got retired for that ) used the expression "Pakistan has as much utility as a minefield".
Which I consider to be the most obtuse view that I heard. But he was simply adding hyperbole to the more realistic view that I expressed earlier.

The irony of it is as India gets more stable and stronger (esp economically) it will have even much less incentive to consider either annexation or disappearance of Pakistan. That real-politik is the rationale behind whatever efforts that MMS or his Govt has been making to keep dialog going acroos the border and in its choice of interlocutor.

Even more ironically )) as the assymmetry between India and Pakistan increases; and I do not mean just military asymmetry but more importantly: Economic and Diplomatic asymmetry, India will feel even less compelled to indulge in 'Give and Take' on Kashmir.
The attitude will simply become "nothing is changing, so why bother. And it matters less and less, so let it be as-is-where-is".
So the Status Quo will persist, only all the means and ability to handle it will be augmented.

I completely agree with the assesment that, Pakistan is needed today. The last thing we need is the lunatics from their western borders running around on our western borders. Everything said and done about the PA it is still what I would call predictable foe. As in its run by professional chaps who once in a while do think about an adventure or two, but will not risk self annihilation during that adventure. The problem with the lunatics from their western border, is that they have a death wish and that is difficult to fight. Leave that part of the problem for the PA to solve. From a strategic perspective, we should really not think of creating problems for Pak, unless trouble starts brewing in Kashmir. Then, provide full 'moral' support to the Balochs and Sindhis. But, unless, the Kashmir militancy rears its head again, strive for better relations in trade and overall environment.

 

[takeiteasy]

this answer will be harsh for most, but it is the real reason - the real reason is, political islamic ideologies which is characteristic to islamic republic is the reason why they cannot be friends with us or vice versa. the followers follow religious scholars and leaders who uses islam as a tool to incite believers for hatred of civilizations. how can they allow normal relations with india being seen as a unbelievers country and that too progressing against all the hatespeech from robotic mullahs?

if pakistan became less religious and a secular country may be 50 years later(if islam world over became weaker), we can expect normal relations. same way, on a minute proposition india also faces hindu nationalism and hindu terrorism(those who are not hindu are not allowed to live in india) which must be eliminated. i am sure, india will grow in secular path than hindutva. but, with islamics in pakistan, can we expect a moderate islam or even a atheist country?

 

[ice_man]

there is no point trying to play friends! WHAT we should instead do is just let each other live! we don't need to be best of friends but we surely can give each other breathing space.

and that is good enough for both nations for the time being. maybe after a couple of decades both countries can expect to start discussing topics like sir creek or siachen or LoC. but for the next 20 years both nations should just concentrate on giving each other breathing space.

"AUR BHI GHUM HAI DUNIYA MEIN LADNAAY KAAY ILAWA"

 

[Bang Galore]

there is no point trying to play friends! WHAT we should instead do is just let each other live! we don't need to be best of friends but we surely can give each other breathing space.

and that is good enough for both nations for the time being. maybe after a couple of decades both countries can expect to start discussing topics like sir creek or siachen or LoC. but for the next 20 years both nations should just concentrate on giving each other breathing space.

Excellent idea ! I can't imagine most Indians would disagree with that.

 

[Vinod2070]

To try and define "what is that Pakistanis think on such issues" is itself a very difficult exercise. Most Pakistanis are unlikely to have much time to think on these matters (esp Kashmir) since they are beset with far more important and difficult existential matters to think about. Actually, in my view; Kashmir provides an ideal escape route to avoid thinking on those matters. It is only one segment in Pakistan that has continously been thinking about Kashmir; to the point of obsession. That is the Security Estt. there. Because it is a convenient 'hobby-horse' for them to ride. It is so easy to correlate the fear of losing PHK or of not gaining *** to the 'eternal chant' of "pakistan khatre main hai".
Ergo, "We (the Security Estt) can keep that khatra at bay, so we must be given Primacy in the scheme of things; in the country". That has been the Modus Operandi for 6 decades.

That fallacy has been propounded by the continuing refrain that "India poses an existential threat to Pakistan". That threat, if any; ended in 1971. Today's Indian security thinking NEEDS Pakistan to exist; as a buffer state. One hard-core retired Indian General (the most hawkish specimen that I could find, he probably got retired for that ) used the expression "Pakistan has as much utility as a minefield".
Which I consider to be the most obtuse view that I heard. But he was simply adding hyperbole to the more realistic view that I expressed earlier.

The irony of it is as India gets more stable and stronger (esp economically) it will have even much less incentive to consider either annexation or disappearance of Pakistan. That real-politik is the rationale behind whatever efforts that MMS or his Govt has been making to keep dialog going acroos the border and in its choice of interlocutor.

Even more ironically )) as the assymmetry between India and Pakistan increases; and I do not mean just military asymmetry but more importantly: Economic and Diplomatic asymmetry, India will feel even less compelled to indulge in 'Give and Take' on Kashmir.
The attitude will simply become "nothing is changing, so why bother. And it matters less and less, so let it be as-is-where-is".
So the Status Quo will persist, only all the means and ability to handle it will be augmented.

Excellent post. Completely agree and the discussions on this thread point towards the same.

Kashmir provides an ideal escape route to avoid thinking on those matters.

Not only on these matters but it provides comfort that they are a real "ideological state" as they are doing something right by supporting the "oppressed Kashmiris"!

This gives them the whiff of morality that is so sorely lacking within their own country and in the wider Ummah.

Far easier to externalize the problem and find issues with others and India fits the bill best.

I completely agree with the assesment that, Pakistan is needed today. The last thing we need is the lunatics from their western borders running around on our western borders. Everything said and done about the PA it is still what I would call predictable foe. As in its run by professional chaps who once in a while do think about an adventure or two, but will not risk self annihilation during that adventure. The problem with the lunatics from their western border, is that they have a death wish and that is difficult to fight. Leave that part of the problem for the PA to solve. From a strategic perspective, we should really not think of creating problems for Pak, unless trouble starts brewing in Kashmir. Then, provide full 'moral' support to the Balochs and Sindhis. But, unless, the Kashmir militancy rears its head again, strive for better relations in trade and overall environment.

I would even say that the PA is serving the motherland (India) by doing this yeoman service.

I would recommend giving out some medals to PA folks by India. It may not be completely voluntary but is a service nonetheless.

 

[Developereo]

Joe, sorry for the late response. I had to attend to pesky distractions like work and all...

Indira, remained oblivious. [...]It was the military that delivered a most unexpected and conclusive victory.

At best you can argue incompetence on her part; what remains certain is her animosity to Pakistan and we believe she wasn't the last of the breed. Not by a long shot.

Further, if your contention is to be taken at face value, then Pakistan got artificial shelter for decades before that, and her actions escaped scrutiny because of the benign attitude of her patrons.

While I don't dispute your statement, my claim is a more general observation that (almost) all countries engage in illicit conduct through unsavory middlemen. Pakistan gets put on the spot now while India gets a pass, and it is taking full advantage of the situation. We don't blame India for being opportunistic, but it doesn't change the fact that India is engaged in a full diplomatic assault on Pakistan.

You have a point in saying my objection was not a fair objection. I am withdrawing it.

I saw that. Thanks.

That does not constitute an agreement with your subsequent afterthought, that ethnic and cultural bonds make the struggle of the Kashmiris (assuming that it exists independent of ISI subventions) immediate. Whose ethnicity? Which culture? Even the Mirpuris culture is distinct from the Kashmiri. The ethnicity is shared with no element of existing Pakistan.

By culture, I meant the wider "Indian" culture that we all share in south Asia. In terms of ethnicity, again, it's a relative concept consisting of an ever-widening circle. Pakistanis are ethnically closer to Kashmiris than to, say, Rwandans.

It's the old "think globally, act locally" concept.

Today I am engaged in setting up a private university in the heart of what was Rohilkhand. The intention, to give hope and opportunities for progress to a backward area. There are 1,000 hostel beds for men, another 1,000 for women. It is our common fond hope that this may cut short the frustration which makes the area notorious for producing nothing more than 'shooters' for Bombay mobs. More than the demographic share of teachers and administrators is from a particular community, and we are encouraging it, without turning the place into another parochial minority institution.

That is a very impressive and admirable program and I am not at all surprised that you would be involved with something like that. Best of luck.

There was, in fact, no reason to worry. [Two Nation Theory]

While I fully accept that a sizable segment of the Indian population sees the Indian Muslims as equal citizens, I am not so sanguine about the future. This topic will take us into a whole other tangent so I don't want to belabor the point, but I feel that Indian secularism is under threat from a resurgent Indian nationalism that equates itself to Hinduism.

While much of this resurgence is an understandable desire to show the world what Indian/Hindu culture can achieve after being unshackled from centuries of foreign domination, there is a danger of it getting overzealous.

The Trojan horse used to bypass secular safeguards is the same one used in Europe -- religious bigotry disguised as cultural chauvinism.

While it may not be in the day-to-day thinking of most Pakistanis, this need to stand on a pedestal was quite evident in every utterance of the political leaders of the community before independence,

Opportunistic politicians have been with us since the dawn of time, so I fully accept your claim. Also, not having been there, it's hard for me to comment on the ground realities of the Hindu/Muslim relationship in that era.

I had hoped, and seemingly that was hoping for too much, that some reflections on morality would come up for airing. Never mind.

My recommendation to address Kashmir (and the Indian relationship in general) through non-military means has an element of morality as well. Achieving one's goals through killing may be unavoidable at times, but it shouldn't be the first resort. If Pakistan can achieve its objectives vis-a-vis India through diplomatic and media pressure, then so much the better.

I leave with my head intact. Huge progress.

Always a pleasure learning from you, Sir.
Unfortunately, I have to be off for a few days.

 

[Joe Shearer]

there is no point trying to play friends! WHAT we should instead do is just let each other live! we don't need to be best of friends but we surely can give each other breathing space.

and that is good enough for both nations for the time being. maybe after a couple of decades both countries can expect to start discussing topics like sir creek or siachen or LoC. but for the next 20 years both nations should just concentrate on giving each other breathing space.

"AUR BHI GHUM HAI DUNIYA MEIN LADNAAY KAAY ILAWA"

@ice_man, is that really you? It sounded sane and rational, so I have to be sure your id hasn't got taken over.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Excellent post. Completely agree and the discussions on this thread point towards the same.



Not only on these matters but it provides comfort that they are a real "ideological state" as they are doing something right by supporting the "oppressed Kashmiris"!

This gives them the whiff of morality that is so sorely lacking within their own country and in the wider Ummah.

Far easier to externalize the problem and find issues with others and India fits the bill best.



I would even say that the PA is serving the motherland (India) by doing this yeoman service.

I would recommend giving out some medals to PA folks by India. It may not be completely voluntary but is a service nonetheless.

You don't seem to realise that nearly a dozen gallantry awards to Pakistani soldiers by their own establishment have been made through Indian commendations. I used to keep track, but lost the record two years ago, and don't know how to re-create it.

 

[ice_man]

@ice_man, is that really you? It sounded sane and rational, so I have to be sure your id hasn't got taken over.

lol Joe it sounds rational to you only when you hear what you wish to hear.

but see what you i guess over looked is that i said "BOTH NATIONS" should work mutally and give each other space to breathe. neither party should try to over power the other.

the problem comes when one side tries to impose its views or wants the other to play second fiddle. this is NOT ACCEPTABLE to us and i am sure neither to you.