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French JF-17 Deal Could Anger India

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What's the price quoted for the proposed upgrade? I am sorry but I am not well informed about Morocco's plans. I just want to know how it compares with the upgrade being considered for indian m2k's!

thanks in advance

IAF has ruled out the upgradtion plan for MK2 in favor of Mig-29. They think the french are ripping you guys off... IAF MK2 upgrades costs well over 25 million dollars where as PAF and Morocco upgrade costs 13-15 million dollars per unit.
 
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Growler is right, French are charging too much for Indian Mirage fleet up gradation hence Indians do not seem to be interested so far.
 
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They think the french are ripping you guys off

Well I am not sure about PAF and morocco but the problem with IAF mk2's is that IAF wants the very best france has to offer. India has agreed on the upgrade but it would seem that Isreal somehow has come up with a better proposal. I am certain that m2k's will be upgraded (ALL IAF birds get upgraded wihtout fail!)

Edit: I do not want to post information about the IAF upgrade as it is off-topic. However, here are some of the basics I know of which was proposed by the french:

cockpit: 3 MFD's to replace the old systems.
Topowl-F HMDS
new mission recorders
PAJ-FA RF jamming solution
new MAW&RWR system
ASTAC elint pod
RF equipment (integrated jammer etc)
RDY-2 radar
New weapons package

If the Israelis come up with something better, I won't mind.
 
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Well I am not sure about PAF and morocco but the problem with IAF mk2's is that IAF wants the very best france has to offer. India has agreed on the upgrade but it would seem that Isreal somehow has come up with a better proposal. I am certain that m2k's will be upgraded (ALL IAF birds get upgraded wihtout fail!)

That does not have to be necessarily so.

The high cost of Mirage upgradation has (atleast in part) to do with the amount of work that needs to be done. For example, just to put some new instruments, they virtually need to upgrade (almost) the whole wiring and some other stuff.

That just in itself requires that the whole plane be broken into bits and pieces and then re-made.

In case of PAF (like for JF-17), the plane is quite advance to begin with and only some components are purchased with relatively little manual labor involved. For example, JF-17 already has full glass cockpit and uses Mil-1760-STD for PGM.

Hence the cost in regards to the mirages of IAF doesn't really mean the instruments they are buying are the best or more expensive but the amount of labor involved is a lot. And we all know labor costs a lot in the West.
 
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IAF has ruled out the upgradtion plan for MK2 in favor of Mig-29. They think the french are ripping you guys off... IAF MK2 upgrades costs well over 25 million dollars where as PAF and Morocco upgrade costs 13-15 million dollars per unit.
First of all, M2k upg has nothing to do with Mig 29 upg!

Secondly, this is an upgrade for Mirage F1 and not Mirage 2000, which mainly is for weapons and some systems. The IAF M2k upgrade is for a full upgrade with complete overhaul of the airframe (if I'm not wong, with increasing the payload and weapon stations), new glass cockpit, new radar, new navigation, data link and EW systems, Topsight HMS, new weapon pack that should include the export version of Scalp too.
It should be clear that this upgrade is costlier than the F1 upgrade, or just an upgrade of the radar and weapon systems that the French proposed for lower costs too!
However, I think it's still too expensive and hope they go for some other systems from Israel too.
 
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@ mean_bird

While I agree with some of your arguments, I would like to point out that the upgrade involved most of the aircrafts to be handled by HAL in india itself if i am not mistaken. The same is the case with mig-29 upgrades. Moreover, there were talks that the french (thales) had come down on the price substantially (last i heard quotes close to 1.8 billion dollars)! Anyhow, the question is "by whom" and "when" not "if at all". The upgrade will happen!
 
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The suspecion is confirmed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
February 22, 2010: India and the United States are pressuring France not to allow Pakistan to buy advanced radars and other electronics for the Pakistani built JF-17 jet fighter. This is because China did most of the development on the JF-17, and Chinese personnel would be involved in any effort to install French electronics in these aircraft. China has a brazen reputation for stealing foreign technology, and putting high tech French electronics into Pakistani JF-17s, is seen as just giving the stuff to China. Pakistan also has a reputation for passing on military technology it had promised to hold close.
While the Chinese steal a lot of technical information via Internet espionage, that's not as good as getting your hands on the actual hardware. Meanwhile, Pakistan wants to upgrade up to a hundred of its JF-17s this way, many of them for export. But France cannot just blow off Indian protests, as India is a much larger customer for French military equipment than Pakistan.

Pakistan recently activated its first JF-17 fighter squadron, which is stationed at an airbase outside Peshawar (the largest city in the tribal territories near the Afghan border.) The squadron, with twelve aircraft and twenty pilots, is the first of many. A year ago, Pakistan signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1). Several countries ordered the aircraft, or are negotiating to. Pakistan will replace its MiG-21s and Mirage IIIs with the low cost JF-17s.

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 uses the same Russian engine, the RD-93, that is used in the MiG-29. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of 17,700 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped. China is still relatively new to aircraft design and development. To further complicate things, China is trying to keep up with aircraft technology that continues to advance, year by year. Thus both the J-10 and JF-17s are difficult and expensive to maintain, and do not function as effectively as the designers hoped. But both aircraft work, and can probably be more useful for ground support, than air superiority. Pakistan hopes to make the JF-17 more lethal by using more experienced pilots. That often works.
 
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Well said dez, and this is what u will naturally expect from ur unfriendly country.

But the qs. Is NOT about ur ignoring, can french ignore the indian concerns.

:blink:
yes they can Ignore the Uncalled for concerns of India keeping in view the biggest arms deals by India, purchasing from Israel, Russia, French, US and so on.
 
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French JF-17 Deal Could Anger India.

So what if India anger! Who Cares!!!!
 
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Yeah,who cares if the deal angers India?Just like how they do not care about us when they made a nuclear pact with USA
 
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IAF has ruled out the upgradtion plan for MK2 in favor of Mig-29. They think the french are ripping you guys off... IAF MK2 upgrades costs well over 25 million dollars where as PAF and Morocco upgrade costs 13-15 million dollars per unit.

I think ur light years away from diplomacy and politics....the deal is finalised ...:smitten:


NEW DELHI: Even as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh left for Paris on Monday to further consolidate the ‘strategic partnership’ with France, the two countries are now all set to ink the around Rs 10,000 crore deal to upgrade the Mirage-2000 fighter jets in IAF’s combat fleet. This will be the second mega defence deal to be signed with France in recent times after the ongoing mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai.

With defence secretary Vijay Singh being part of the PM’s entourage to Paris, sources said the announcement about the upgrade of the French-origin Mirages is very much on the cards during the trip. The ‘differences’ over the upgrade project had been ‘resolved’ after almost two years of hard-nosed negotiations, which were bogged down for some time because French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator) wanted close to Rs 14,000 crore for the programme.

‘‘The two sides have now arrived at a reasonable price around Rs 10,000 crore. The first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, with the rest 50 or so being upgraded in India by Hindustan Aeronautics under transfer of technology,’’ said a source.
Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters by around 20 years. :victory:

India had first inducted 40 Mirages in the mid-1980s, with over 20 more being bought in later years. IAF has had a ‘good’ experience with the fighters, which successfully carried out ‘targeted bombings’ during the 1999 Kargil conflict. Some years ago, IAF had even pitched for the advanced Mirage-2000-Vs for its gigantic $10-billion project for 126 new medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).


Rs 10,000cr deal likely for Mirage-2000 upgrade - India - The Times of India
 
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It says LIKELY....Do show up here when u have it CONFIRMED OR FINALISED
 
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keep going brothers. you're on the right way...

rafale is born to be a dead. it's no foreign sales anyone. but french has put a lot of mony for this job. they developed many advanced technologys and integrated electronic systems. and yes. french solutions very expensive. (even taiwan was tired of for mirage 2000-5. because not only the cost of ownership, maintenance costs were too high.)

Let's look at history. mirage 3 and 5 series fighter planes to catch a big sales success. French names to be added to these jets in the market place. With this name, who want to buy combat aircraft from an independent source, they must be interested in mirage 2000. time is changed, technology is changed, specially needs have changed. and rafale project starts on the wrong plan. yes, this aircraft is filtered such as pheasant. but who benefits there? french aviation sector in a crisis. sooner or later they will notice the facts. they don't need rafale for to continue their good name in this time. They need their modern heirs to mirage 3 and 5 family. (cheaper than other planes, acceptable maintenance costs, compatible for modern warfare needs.)

time is now, project was right. dear pakistani friends if you choose the french partnership for jf-17, your aviation industry will certainly grow. until the french notice the facts and actuality, you have a good, acceptable and capable fighter with french sub systems and armaments. Pakistan has a low production costs and this totally fits with the actual tendencies of our age.

you're muslim country. world politic is changed. i think... pakistan, china and frech partnership for this plane, many country interest it. and the pakistan must be center of this cooperation. best regards...
 
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It says LIKELY....Do show up here when u have it CONFIRMED OR FINALISED
Actually this reports confirms the M2K upgrade more than any report of JF 17 with French avionics upg, so I guess you mean the same for the JF 17 upg too right?
 
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