Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[Allen Iverson]

Swedish Air Force J-35 Draken pilots on high alert had one minute to be airborne after the order to go.
Its official climb rate was 10,500 m per minute.

http://www.aef.se/Flygvapnet/PDF-dokument/FVN_1978_1_Incidentberedskap.pdf

View attachment 321347

Thanks for the share.. Swedish Airforce is known for its very low readiness time before getting airborne.. Even with Gripen Sales Pitch SAAB Highlighted these qualities such as Very short readiness time, Complete engine change in one hour, less than 10 Minutes between sorties, Hot refuelling etc.. So, I'm not surprised at this

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

They were Flying 10 MILES inside your territory

The idea of Radar lock was to let them KNOW that MIG 29s were flying in the Same
area where the Bombers were bombing Pakistani positions

That is the whole idea of CAP

During Kargil the moral in IAF was so badly hit till the Spice kits were retrofitted to M2K, that even a lock on from across the border would have been engaged by R27s carried by the Fulcrum, hence it is not just I who saw this operation with my eyes, but the whole world says that if India would have achieved a cross border lock on Pakistani gambit, they would have gladly pulled a fox 2. We don't expect you to agree.

Well I am not a Pakistani and maybe a Pakistani member can explain how long it would take an Indian plane to cover 20 miles in Pakistani territory considering the extreme proximity between both nations. But what I find incredibly hard to believe is that a country that awarded its prestigious military medals for the pilots that shot down the Atlantique plane would somehow restrain themselves from shooting an F-16 during the Kargil War.

As far as the rest of your posts, I am not really too concerned about them. You have proven to be a dishonest debator on numerous occasions and I advice members to ignore your troll quality posts.

Cheers Mr " Stephen Cohen"

Their radars couldn't even scan with the EW support we have, let alone get a lock with a DLZ release. 600 Million was spent on the Fulcrum just to fix this hole, while we upgraded the PAF side to ensure we stay ahead.

 

[Rafael]

During Kargil the moral in IAF was so badly hit till the Spice kits were retrofitted to M2K, that even a lock on from across the border would have been engaged by R27s carried by the Fulcrum, hence it is not just I who saw this operation with my eyes, but the whole world says that if India would have achieved a cross border lock on Pakistani gambit, they would have gladly pulled a fox 2. We don't expect you to agree.



Their radars couldn't even scan with the EW support we have, let alone get a lock with a DLZ release. 600 Million was spent on the Fulcrum just to fix this hole, while we upgraded the PAF side to ensure we stay ahead.

With the current inventories in mind, how many days can PAF survive in a full blown war, respected sir?

@Bilal Khan 777

 

[Delnavaz B]

With the current inventories in mind, how many days can PAF survive in a full blown war, respected sir?

@Bilal Khan 777

PAF could stand tall against India till the war last.

 

[wiseone2]

l'd like to contradict on your point.. Atlantique was flying inside Indian Territory while it got shot down.. There were protocols followed before shooting down an intruder (Not an aggressor in this case).. Atlantique was Recce plane with SIGINT capability(Signal Intelligence) and a Recce plane following so close to the border that too within two months from a brief war between two sides does raise a lot of eyebrows.. The pilot hasn't responded to the interceptor's calls, and the next thing we know, is that an R-60 Heat seeker, fired up its ***..
Coming to the F16, they patrolled near our border but didn't come closer than 5.4 NM from international border.. Hence there is no question of shooting them up..
What is more shocking is that, a person from USA like you who claim to be neutral to both nations actually posing a sarcastic note on Indian forces in a sense of mock.. ?? How could you be so ignorant.? Posting something about nations which is of no connection to you, without going through the incidents deep is indeed a bad trait..

Pakistan erred in sending the Atlantique close to the Indian border. The IAF went for blood by shooting down the Atlantique.

 

[waz]

The F-16 has such a fantastic hold over the psyche of the Indian Air Force that if they ever had an opportunity to lock into one, they will gladly shoot it down. This entire none sense that vipers were locked into but never shot down is utterly laughable, especially during the Kargil conflict when the Indians lost helicopters and fighter jets and had pilots either killed or held as POW. In their frustration, they downed an unarmed PN Atlantique plane. An F-16 would have been such a huge morale booster for the Indian pilots that no sane person can ever believe the Indian Air Force would miss on such a grand opportunity. Any claims to the contrary are BS.

Yes, you only need to look at the fantastic history of the MIG-29 v F-16 and how many times the MIG has prevailed in encounters with the Viper, oh wait a minute....

 

[Windjammer]

l'd like to contradict on your point.. Atlantique was flying inside Indian Territory while it got shot down.. There were protocols followed before shooting down an intruder (Not an aggressor in this case).. Atlantique was Recce plane with SIGINT capability(Signal Intelligence) and a Recce plane following so close to the border that too within two months from a brief war between two sides does raise a lot of eyebrows.. The pilot hasn't responded to the interceptor's calls, and the next thing we know, is that an R-60 Heat seeker, fired up its ***..
Coming to the F16, they patrolled near our border but didn't come closer than 5.4 NM from international border.. Hence there is no question of shooting them up..
What is more shocking is that, a person from USA like you who claim to be neutral to both nations actually posing a sarcastic note on Indian forces in a sense of mock.. ?? How could you be so ignorant.? Posting something about nations which is of no connection to you, without going through the incidents deep is indeed a bad trait..

Nonsense, you don't intrude enemy territory with a large slow unarmed plane with a dozen trainees on board, the fact is after losing three aircraft during Kargil conflict, the IAF was desperate to salvage something, hence it proved it's worth by shooting a vulnerable aircraft and looking good amongst Indians.

Pakistan erred in sending the Atlantique close to the Indian border. The IAF went for blood by shooting down the Atlantique.

Yea, when the stakes were level the IAF was first to shy away, by shooting an unarmed aircraft, it wanted to prove it's credibility to the Indians and also make Vajpayee stand tall....hence that Kodak moment.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

With the current inventories in mind, how many days can PAF survive in a full blown war, respected sir?

@Bilal Khan 777

long enough to give a bloody nose to India to call off the hostilities. I doubt the Indians can take 30+ losses of their jets.. they will be aggressors to prove a point and get the right of passage to become aspiring regional bullies.. PAF will be fighting for survival so it wont hold back.

trust me, Indian appetite for conquest will be lost very soon.. the loss of a jet is a big deal .. not every jet has to be shot down to make the Indians change their mind.

Americans were mindful when they gave the new blocks of F-16 with modern AMRAAMs altough handful in numbers .. they have acted as an effective deterrent

 

[Hellfire]

The F-16 has such a fantastic hold over the psyche of the Indian Air Force that if they ever had an opportunity to lock into one, they will gladly shoot it down. This entire none sense that vipers were locked into but never shot down is utterly laughable, especially during the Kargil conflict when the Indians lost helicopters and fighter jets and had pilots either killed or held as POW. In their frustration, they downed an unarmed PN Atlantique plane. An F-16 would have been such a huge morale booster for the Indian pilots that no sane person can ever believe the Indian Air Force would miss on such a grand opportunity. Any claims to the contrary are BS.

Incorrect.

The lock was in BVR PAF was bereft of same capability at the time. However, the F-16s were on a dissuasive CAP and so were Mig-29s. Rest all is hyperbole.

As for your quip regarding India would have shot down etc etc, the mandate was not to cross IB or LC.

The Atlantique swerved into an area where border was convoluted and was in the 10 km no fly zone .... it was engaged on that principle, immaterial where it was. The fact that fragments were recovered prove to the fact of this violation of Aircraft.

It was exactly as the other thread about loss of Jaguars in J&K wherein the An-32 strike by PA with SAM was posted. Similar circumstances, similar actions different results. Would that be "frustration"?

Your whole post is neither neutral nor factually correct nor indeed in anyways having the correct assessment of the said action.

Grounded no more fighter pilot and i don't have time to read your biased posts.

Incorrect. He was medically downgraded due to a bail out medical category required is A1G1 in Indian Military Stadards. Was converted to An-32s in 2007 and now in IL-78 refuellers, Group Captain and about to move to greener pastures in civil aviation with full service (or may have moved out)

 

[Delnavaz B]

Incorrect. He was medically downgraded due to a bail out medical category required is A1G1 in Indian Military Stadards. Was converted to An-32s in 2007 and now in IL-78 refuel lets and about to move to greener pastures in civil aviation with full service.

No 100% lie because video proofs available he was very well no injury even as per Red Cross standard procedure they examine the POW medically before handing him over to his country and Nachiketa was very well and healthy no injuries reported.

 

[Hellfire]

WOW!! Reading about the Foxbat and writing fiction and knowing about the Foxbat and then writing per expertise are two different things, I hope you get that. You should talk to the fine USAF pilots who took out a few Foxbats in Iraq and other places. Then you'll find out how Foxbat really flies at Mach 2.4 at 70k feet.

At 65+ feet, maneuvering gets very difficult due to the gravity and air-density, etc. If you can install a bigger engine into the F-16 and take it up there, it's maneuverability would become less than 50% of what it really is below 55K feet. At the height of 70k or more, you can't do "maneuvers" and still maintain a 2.5 mach speed. You make one turn and you bleed so much energy that it takes you a couple of minutes to recoup and due to gravity and drag, you become a sitting duck.

A Foxbat, a U-2 or a SR-71, are only at their peak performance if they cut through the air like a needle, meaning straight flight. No maneuvers at that altitude. An F-16 if fires a couple of AIM's, and the Foxbat pilot does a roll or two, or some small maneuver, his speed will drastically reduce and the vector will change (all Physics here, every motion has an equal and opposite reaction). So a vector change will bring down the original vector flight pattern from a speed, gravity and drag's standpoint as the third law of motion will kick in.

That gives both, the F-16 and the AIM more time to now get closer to the Foxbat. It would take a minute to two for the Foxbat to recover and become a vector again. But a Mach 2.5-3 missile having a much smaller body will get closer to the Foxbat in the meantime, forcing the jet to do more maneuvers and thus a second missile would take advantage of that slower speed and bleeding energy and would more than likely take him out. Hope this helps.



I just explained this, hopefully this answer will become a part of the previous post so you can read it. The reason as to why no SR's were intercepted was because the US had provided a strict vector based flight pattern for the SR's. They weren't allowed to engage or maneuver. Their goal was to penetrate any AD and fly like a needle through any airspace. As long as this jet would fly as a Vector, it would be extremely hard (if not impossible with tech from back then) to intercept it.


Before anyone can get to them, there would be support waiting in the shape of F-14's, F-15's and in earlier times, F-4's.

The first F-18 downed on the first day was by a Mig-25. Specifically January 17 1991, Lt Commander Michael Scott Speicher Bureau No 163484.

Your logic is confusing for me.

Thanks

No 100% lie because video proofs available he was very well no injury even as per Red Cross standard procedure they examine the POW medically before handing him over to his country and Nachiketa was very well and healthy no injuries reported.

Read carefully what I wrote, consult pilots and then argue. Just don't shoot nonsense for the sake of it. Any bale out by a fighter pilot in IAF leads to his temporary grounding and then he may choose to shift to transports if medical category permits after a medical board is conducted.

It's got to do with high G forces and effects thereof on spine.

If it pleases you my lady, I have posted his specific employments after the war. Read carefully.

And am not talking about his POW status, I specifically quoted your text.

 

[Delnavaz B]

The first F-18 downed on the first day was by a Mig-25. Specifically January 17 1991, Lt Commander Michael Scott Speicher Bureau No 163484.

Your logic is confusing for me.

Thanks



Read carefully what I wrote, consult pilots and then argue. Just don't shoot nonsense for the sake of it. Any bale out by a fighter pilot in IAF leads to his grounding and then he may choose to shift to transports if medical category permits after a medical board is conducted.

It's got to do with high G forces and effects thereof on spine.

If it pleases you my lady, I have posted his specific employments after the war. Read carefully.

And am not talking about his POW status, I specifically quoted your text.

Stop your nonsense use proper language with me OK
Many Pilots bail out during their service but no one grounded and videos are available on youtube walking perfectly no injuries reported.

 

[Hellfire]

Stop your nonsense use proper language with me OK
Many Pilots bail out during their service but no one grounded and videos are available on youtube walking perfectly no injuries reported.

First of all please report my post for any and all offensive language if you find it.

Secondly. If you are offended by the fact that am pointing out something that adds to your post and draws out the inaccuracies thereof, pray say so.

Thirdly, am telling you the Indian standard operating procedure, you can accept it and appreciate that I outlined the same, or you continue with your ignorance and infactualities and use 'proper language' as a Defence to avoid being pointed out for inaccuracies.

@Joe Shearer Now I get your point about this young poster.

 

[Delnavaz B]

First of all please report my post for any and all offensive language if you find it.

Secondly. If you are offended by the fact that am pointing out something that adds to your post and draws out the inaccuracies thereof, pray say so.

Thirdly, am telling you the Indian standard operating procedure, you can accept it and appreciate that I outlined the same, or you continue with your ignorance and infactualities and use 'proper language' as a Defence to avoid being pointed out for inaccuracies.

@Joe Shearer Now I get your point about this young poster.

You tag the person who owns Gospel of truth and whoever disagrees with him he will use negative ratting to silence them. I know soon he will appear here and abused his powers.
I have valid point that Nachiketa was not injured during bail out walking perfectly and Red Cross medical exam proves this.

 

[CHI RULES]

He is Talking About SideWinder Which is not a BVR


Pakistan Didn't Need F 14 , F 14 is a different class of Bird @Tipu7

Air Warfare is not a drag race where Or neither F16 or Mig was going on dog fighting

And India allowed PAF to do a sonic boom If you Check the History

@Windjammer Pakistan isnt doing Very Well in Current SAMS even if you check they always ignored this , and depend to much on Birds To do the heavy lighting But If you See Current IAF Inventory yes Pakistan can Hold its End but thats for a short term If India Goes on Full Sweep You Cant just Apply man behind Gun theory , Indian Inventory Out Class Pakistan in both In terms of numbers and tech Yes PAF is trying to Catch Up But Main Problem lies Totally Ignoring Sams Pakistan needs umberlla few hi End and Majority medium to Low End Modern Sam Systems to Cover and Protect its asset

Pak is taking steps though slow and insufficient yet same is case in every field. At what is my personal observation Man pads and computerized AA guns which are quite effective against low flying objects along with old jets are being deployed which is better than nothing. Perhaps in next few years at least low to medium level SAMS shall be deployed near border areas mostly Chinese based.