Four Britons plotted to bomb British army base using toy car.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is not about Americans. There are plenty of threads about US soldiers committing atrocities. I can see you are evading.

I am not evading, but trying to point out the fallacy of your argument - you are generalizing by asking 'Why Pakistani Britons', based on the actions of a very small percentage of the total population of Pakistani Britons, which lead me to ask you 'Why non-Muslim Americans/American military', based on the actions of a few non-Muslim US military/contract personnel.

If you agree that such 'generalizations' apply both ways, then we can return to the subject of 'Pakistani Britons', and continue the discussion on 'non-Muslim Americans/American military personnel' on another thread.

 

[JayAtl]

Whether the massacres and rapes committed by US troops/contractors were committed as part of an 'institutionalized plot' or not, Gambit's argument does apply in terms of these individuals 'not acting in a vacuum and developing certain moral and intellectual justifications in targeting people from one specific faith/culture', and therefore being representative of the attitudes of non-Muslim Americans/American military.

If Gambit and others can make generalizations about Muslims/Pakistanis based on the acts of a few, then why can generalizations about non-Muslim Americans/American Military be made based on the acts of a few?

I don't think that's what he is saying. The acts you describe are individual random acts of lapse of judgment vs. the acts he attributes you guys with as an institutionalized homogenous acts, all derived from the singular goal of perceived protection of Islam as a religion. i.e. The acts of terror have a common denominator that being a " perceived call to jihad to protect a single identity - Islam" .

The rape and murder of civilians by odd soldiers in anyone's army - it happens in everyone's army. Is due to lack of moral judgment and just pure criminal intent . There is no ' perceived " reward of 72 virgins or martyrdom at the end of those acts .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't think that's what he is saying. The acts you describe are individual random acts of lapse of judgment vs. the acts he attributes you guys with as an institutionalized homogenous acts, all derived from the singular goal of perceived protection of Islam as a religion. i.e. The acts of terror have a common denominator that being a " perceived call to jihad to protect a single identity - Islam" .

The rape and murder of civilians by odd soldiers in anyone's army - it happens in everyone's army. Is due to lack of moral judgment and just pure criminal intent . There is no ' perceived " reward of 72 virgins or martyrdom at the end of those acts .

You are 'splitting hairs' in trying to make a distinction here between the massacres committed by non-Muslim American Military personnel and Muslim men perpetrating/trying to perpetrate acts of violence. In both cases, given that the 'crimes' are committed by a significant minority of the respective overall populations, one could argue that both sets of acts are 'individual random acts of laps of judgement'. Why? Because I would argue that an American soldier choosing to plan a cold-blooded rape and murder spree is making just as much a conscious decision to commit a crime as is a Pakistani-Briton who chooses to train with AQ (or is inspired by their ideology) to plan and commit violence.

The choice to commit a crime in both cases is an individual choice, and in both cases it is a choice made due to prejudice/hatred of the 'other' for 'perceived harm committed against the individual's community/nation/culture ..'.

 

[karan.1970]

You are 'splitting hairs' in trying to make a distinction here between the massacres committed by non-Muslim American Military personnel and Muslim men perpetrating/trying to perpetrate acts of violence. In both cases, given that the 'crimes' are committed by a significant minority of the respective overall populations, one could argue that both sets of acts are 'individual random acts of laps of judgement'. Why? Because I would argue that an American soldier choosing to plan a cold-blooded rape and murder spree is making just as much a conscious decision to commit a crime as is a Pakistani-Briton who chooses to train with AQ (or is inspired by their ideology) to plan and commit violence.

The choice to commit a crime in both cases is an individual choice, and in both cases it is a choice made due to prejudice/hatred of the 'other' for 'perceived harm committed against the individual's community/nation/culture ..'.

You are missing out a clear distinction.. In case of the 4 Pakistani origin Britons, and of the countless others muslims before them, there is a distinct organization using an extremist distortion of Islam to consciously nudge these young men towards making that choice, which makes it a case of successful recruitment.

Unlike the lone immoral American soldier who gave in to his immorality driven basic instincts..

 

[JayAtl]

You are 'splitting hairs' in trying to make a distinction here between the massacres committed by non-Muslim American Military personnel and Muslim men perpetrating/trying to perpetrate acts of violence. In both cases, given that the 'crimes' are committed by a significant minority of the respective overall populations, one could argue that both sets of acts are 'individual random acts of laps of judgement'. Why? Because I would argue that an American soldier choosing to plan a cold-blooded rape and murder spree is making just as much a conscious decision to commit a crime as is a Pakistani-Briton who chooses to train with AQ (or is inspired by their ideology) to plan and commit violence.

The choice to commit a crime in both cases is an individual choice, and in both cases it is a choice made due to prejudice/hatred of the 'other' for 'perceived harm committed against the individual's community/nation/culture ..'.

First I think you need to take a look again at your claim of minority ( numbers involved ) . Your minority numbers says 80% of your population according to a poll taken in Pakistan and posted here a while back on PDF, finds the citizenry sympathizes in some form with the terrorists and their agenda. Our minority are less than a handful of idiots with criminal intent and a super majority of Americans think them to be so ( dare say as high as 99% think they are idiots). You can't compare the both, yours is an international security risk , headache and real danger to the countries of the world. Our criminals are not even remotely a syndicated crime group.

I understand you don't want to be associated with these guys when they do bad. But unfortunately for you they associate themselves proudly as Pakistani first then british. Ask your honest posters from Britain here and they will confirm and some have confirmed in the past that - they wear the Pakistani flag and heritage with pride and identify themselves as being first and fore most and live mostly among that community.

 

[ali786]

What is going on with the British Pakistani youth.

Why not have a honest discussion about it here. We even notice the British Pakistanis ( Not all ) here, seem to be quite radical in their ways. We have read articles about the Pakistani British youth having high numbers involved in drugs , crimes or being radicalized in UK. We have read several other Pakistani British posters here confirm this state of affairs to us here. AGAIN my question is what is going in UK- it is beyond anecdotal now, it seems like a community is in trouble.

in your opinion what do you think about pakistanis in the USA? how are they seen as by non pakistanis? compared to the UK?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

40% british muslims support sharia law imposition in britain according to polls.They have been heavily radicalized,so this is hardly surprising.On youtube u can see several videos of these people and their karname.I am yet to see a single video of street rallies conducted by moderates condemning the radicals.Yet u see several radical street rallies.So how is one to know about majority/minority?This creates insecurity/phobia and leads to the creation of neo fascist groups like the EDL now active in UK.
This is sad reality though i know many will disagree.

 

[ali786]

40% british muslims support sharia law imposition in britain according to polls.They have been heavily radicalized,so this is hardly surprising.On youtube u can see several videos of these people and their karname.I am yet to see a single video of street rallies conducted by moderates condemning the radicals.Yet u see several radical street rallies.So how is one to know about majority/minority?This creates insecurity/phobia and leads to the creation of neo fascist groups like the EDL now active in UK.
This is sad reality though i know many will disagree.

what about the sikhs who protested in london in support for Balwant Singh Rajoana who is said to be a terrorist? i remember asking a sikh guy at work if he thought of him as a freedom fighter or a terrorist and he said that he was a freedom fighter.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

what about the sikhs who protested in london in support for Balwant Singh Rajoana who is said to be a terrorist? i remember asking a sikh guy at work if he thought of him as a freedom fighter or a terrorist and he said that he was a freedom fighter.

They aren't spitting at brit soldiers returning from afganistan or saying we will take over buckinghum palace and queen will either convert or leave country in open interviews.These type of stunts create phobia.Thing is when in rome do as the romans do,otherwise don't go there.This applies to all foreigners going to live in a foreign nation.

 

[gambit]

I am not evading, but trying to point out the fallacy of your argument - you are generalizing by asking 'Why Pakistani Britons', based on the actions of a very small percentage of the total population of Pakistani Britons, which lead me to ask you 'Why non-Muslim Americans/American military', based on the actions of a few non-Muslim US military/contract personnel.

If you agree that such 'generalizations' apply both ways, then we can return to the subject of 'Pakistani Britons', and continue the discussion on 'non-Muslim Americans/American military personnel' on another thread.

Of course you are evading. Going by YOUR assumption that I am making generalizations, might as well apply the same argument to bank robbers and rapists.

Again...I made no generalizations. I said that we cannot disavow a person's intellectual and moral foundations for his actions. What is the point of attacking an army base? Profits? Of what? Hostages? Now that would make the act clearly political and reveal their true natures. Make a statement? Now that is what making you uncomfortable.

 

[JayAtl]

in your opinion what do you think about pakistanis in the USA? how are they seen as by non pakistanis? compared to the UK?

Honestly the more cultured Pakistanis moved to the US and the lower class Pakistanis moved to the UK in my assessment. This is confirmed from the low social status they have in UK vs. the more successful ones in the US.

You will notice on these boards that the Pakistani Americans ( most of them here , with few exceptions like Razpak and A1khaild and couple more) are smart and moderate in their views . You then notice most Pakistani British posters ( with few exception of a couple ) are always pushing radical viewpoints. Finally you will see that in polls most Pakistani Americans say they are happy in America , while opposite in Britian.

what about the sikhs who protested in london in support for Balwant Singh Rajoana who is said to be a terrorist? i remember asking a sikh guy at work if he thought of him as a freedom fighter or a terrorist and he said that he was a freedom fighter.

have the skihs gone and blown up UK? they can protest and they are protesting about India. Not asking UK to turn UK into Khalistan.

 

[ali786]

Honestly the more cultured Pakistanis moved to the US and the lower class Pakistanis moved to the UK in my assessment. This is confirmed from the low social status they have in UK vs. the more successful ones in the US.

You will notice on these boards that the Pakistani Americans ( most of them here , with few exceptions like Razpak and A1khaild and couple more) are smart and moderate in their views . You then notice most Pakistani British posters ( with few exception of a couple ) are always pushing radical viewpoints. Finally you will see that in polls most Pakistani Americans say they are happy in America , while opposite in Britian.

am i correct in assuming that most of the Pakistanis in the US are from the citys in pakistan like islamabad, karachi i.e the more built up areas, whereas the ones who went to the UK were from the poorer village type areas, like most of the people in the UK are Kashmiri - i think .

have the skihs gone and blown up UK? they can protest and they are protesting about India. Not asking UK to turn UK into Khalistan.

but im sure that they would have done if the UK was messing with indian affairs - which it isnt. For arguments sake lets say the UK invaded india right now for its recources (like they did iraq), your telling me that all the indians in the UK will sit quietly singing the UK national anthem? they wouldnt, also im sure that a minority of them would use violence.

Not that anyone should use violence. What theses guys in luton did was not acceptable, instead they should have voiced their anger at the UKs foreign policy in a more constructive way.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

oh thats funny...i remember seeing a plethora of bharty shmucks on this forum lambasting the Sikhs in London and even faraway as Canada

 

[Peregrine]

They are terrorists, just for playing with remote control toys near a military base? Talk about insecurities!

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Talk about what creates these insecurities too.