FC-1 (JF-17) powered by WS-13 engine carries Taxi Trials

[SBD-3]

Just on a few points I need clarification.....

Winning: Russia And China Wait For Someone To Blink

July 8, 2010: Russia is increasingly upset at how blatantly China has been copying Russian military equipment, and selling the copies in competition with the Russian originals.

Has China made any sale or even announcement of so called Copies?.....is he referring to J-10s as Russian AC too???

Particularly annoying is China’s building copies of the Su-27 (as the J-11 and the carrier version as the J-15.)

The differences between the J-11B, Su-27SK and Su-27SMK are sufficiently great that this must be considered a unique offshoot of the Flanker family of fighters, not a subtype of the baseline Su-27SK/J-11A.
Shenyang J-11B Sino-Flanker

The Chinese made JF-17 (also known as FC-1) jet fighters are exported to Pakistan, and are being offered to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as inexpensive alternatives to American and Russian fighters. Hundreds of JF-17s are also going to be built in Pakistan, mainly using Chinese parts.

China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort was aided by Russia for a while, by selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia wasn't happy about this, because they didn't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians tried to make the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is ready for service. The Russians believe otherwise. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Or so the Russians believe. Officially, China is still ordering RD93s because they cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.

WS-13 is still in testing and not matured so obviously Chinese would want something matured and reliable for an aircraft whose all dependence is on a sole engine rather than they can't produce or so

Pakistan began receivingJF-17s three years ago, and activated its first JF-17 squadron five month ago. Last year, it signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1).

now here is the contradiction

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter

thats why they went on with development....ryt....btw who wrote this article?...

 

[conworldus]

So do u think Russians will sell the engines on the pretext that Chinese are copying less than they use to back in the day.

Wow, I could have explain that logic to my teacher in school. I will not copy as much as I use to in 3rd grade.

I honestly have no clue of what you mean and how it relates to my point.

 

[Qasibr]

I have a general question about modern aircraft engine testing standard practices.

How far along the process of engine-development/testing, do manufacturers start conducting taxi trials? Also, what's the next step generally, after having conducted such trials.

If someone's familiar with details on how long it took the Rafale, EF, J-10 or other modern aircraft to go from conducting taxi trials to being certified, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

 

[sam27]

I honestly have no clue of what you mean and how it relates to my point.

As u said, Chinese are not copying Russians as they used to before 10 years but still they are even though less, aren't they? So do u think they will sell Chinese the engines on that premise. Okay, Chinese are not copying like back in the day, so lets get it done.

 

[conworldus]

As u said, Chinese are not copying Russians as they used to before 10 years but still they are even though less, aren't they? So do u think they will sell Chinese the engines on that premise. Okay, Chinese are not copying like back in the day, so lets get it done.

I am still having trouble understanding you. But to be clear, I didn't say that Russia should sell China the engines. The situation is that, if Russia does sell the engines, JF-17 can be exported to countries like Egypt fairly quick. If Russia refuses to sell the engines, we will have to wait a year or two for the WS-13 to be ready.

 

[Nahraf]

China is copying way less now than say, 10 years ago, because China has already learned most of the Russian techs anyway.

Some of the complex technologies that China adopted from Russia are now coming into the market. It took 10 years to build J-15 from Su-33 prototype that Chinese bought from Ukraine. So I wouldn't be surprised to see more products from China that may have Russian technology for another decade.

 

[Gexiao]

So, pilots should be ready for test failure of new motor.

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[abaseen99]

oh, nice !
i will put a team to design the engine module
and another one to design the chassis
now try fitting a Yukon engine in a Nissan Tida.

Icecold, you have insulted engineers all over the world !

Jokes apart, IMHO this is pure speculation.
the WS-13 has a long way to go, before it is accepted good enough to power a war machine.
The problem is not just with the blades, that is a symptom event only.
the root cause of the problem is lack of experience in metallurgical sciences and fabrication technology.
Even if that technology is acquired as we speak now, it will take years to go through the quality cycles, to get to more than 4 digit accuracy !
Any thing less then that, is not even worth mentioning for an air craft.

respected dr qadeer khan can help if the paf officials contact him because he is the metallurgical expert.

 

[Sinnerman108]

respected dr qadeer khan can help if the paf officials contact him because he is the metallurgical expert.

What was that suppose to mean ?

would you please care to help me see how you came to that conclusion ?

or do you follow the general principle of

Bicycle has throttle, steering and brakes
thus, any one who can ride a bicycle is also qualified to drive a car.

 

[ali786]

What was that suppose to mean ?

would you please care to help me see how you came to that conclusion ?

or do you follow the general principle of

Bicycle has throttle, steering and brakes
thus, any one who can ride a bicycle is also qualified to drive a car.

Calm down m8, he was only joking

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I hope people get a chance to go into the Lyulka-Saturn plant where you can see the AL-41 engine being tested for almost a decade. And the Russians still havent got it right and the PAK-FA is flying with the 117s engine. We are talking about a country that has been making Fighter aircraft engines since the 1950s.

The French took almost 25 years to make the M-88 engine, and the EJ 200 also took similar time.

Engine design is a difficult process and manufacturing them is further harder. We couldnt make sure why we had the 'throwing' of engine blades in Kaveri even after we were directly handed the SC technology of AL 31 and the RD-33MK on a plate by the Russians.

So it is like 'The scientists have done their best and have left God to do the rest'. Ind engine design sometimes your best is not good enough. So it will be a great breakthrough if China can get their reliability problems sorted in their WS-10 and WS-13

 

[araz]

I hope people get a chance to go into the Lyulka-Saturn plant where you can see the AL-41 engine being tested for almost a decade. And the Russians still havent got it right and the PAK-FA is flying with the 117s engine. We are talking about a country that has been making Fighter aircraft engines since the 1950s.

The French took almost 25 years to make the M-88 engine, and the EJ 200 also took similar time.

Engine design is a difficult process and manufacturing them is further harder. We couldnt make sure why we had the 'throwing' of engine blades in Kaveri even after we were directly handed the SC technology of AL 31 and the RD-33MK on a plate by the Russians.

So it is like 'The scientists have done their best and have left God to do the rest'. Ind engine design sometimes your best is not good enough. So it will be a great breakthrough if China can get their reliability problems sorted in their WS-10 and WS-13

Avery balanced and good post.Engine tech is not that easy to master and as mentioned by the above poster it will take time for China to test and be happy with their engines, perhaps another 3-5 yrs. However once achieved they will go from strength to strength. As PAF has only single engined aircrafts, it will not risk a chinese engine till it is entirely happy with its performance and reliability. I still think Russia will not let its market disappear so easily and may tempt us with a higher thrust engine just to keep buying Russian engines.
Araz

 

[topgun787]

may be we can find a european engine for block iii

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

may be we can find a european engine for block iii

would u plz let the current Thunder fly comfortably and keep the fan boy hurdles of block 2, 3, XX, Stealth, Falan Falan. etc , out of jf-17 program for a couple of more years. LET THE THUNDER GROW.
Why u all fan boys always jump beyond visual range.

secondly if the time come for Block-3 in future, i think Pakistan would be producing their own engines Inshallah in 10 to 15 years, because GOVT of Pakistan has approved for another aeronautical complex.

 

[mughaljee]

GOVT of Pakistan has approved for another aeronautical complex.

Please explain little further,
where this will be built. ?