FC-1 (JF-17) powered by WS-13 engine carries Taxi Trials

[ironman]

Sapper, The link you have posted is either wrong or badly translated.

 

[Haanzo]

Dear,

I don't want to fight you over this but RD-33 basic had MTBO of 300 hours, which was improved to 1000+ for series 2 and 1500+ for series 3. RD-93 shares its MTBO with series 3, since its reported life-cycle is of 4000hrs with ~1500 hrs MTBO.

Regards,
Sapper

who asked you to fight me over this . there is nothing to fight over the truth .... please quote me one source that says rd-93 is derived from RD-33 series III engine

 

[MZUBAIR]

who asked you to fight me over this . there is nothing to fight over the truth .... please quote me one source that says rd-93 is derived from RD-33 series III engine

The RD-93 is a derivation of the RD-33 used by the MiG-29 fighter not RD-33 series 3.

RD-33 series 3 is version of RD-33 for model with a longer service life used on later or upgraded old variants of the MiG-29 such as MiG-29M and MiG-29SMT. A pair of RD-33 series 3 engine equipped with TVN is currently undergoing flight tests as a component of the MiG-29OVT jet fighter.

The FC-1/JF-17 is powered by a Russian-made Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine rated 49.4kN dry or 84.4kN with afterburning. The RD-93 is a derivation of the RD-33 used by the MiG-29 fighter. In 2007, China signed a contract with Russia to supply 150 RD-93 engines for the JF-17 production.

Liyang Aero Engine Corporation in Guizhou is reportedly developing an indigenous turbofan engine designated WS-13 (or Tianshan-21) as an alterative powerplant option for the FC-1. The engine was said to have been based on the RD-93 design with some modifications.

Source

Sapper's point is not wrong abt MTBO (Mean time between outages)

 

[peacemaker10]

Are chinese using this WS-13 engine on any other plane rather than JF-17 ??

Since it is not a nice idea to use JF-17 as a test bed alone ..

 

[TaimiKhan]

Are chinese using this WS-13 engine on any other plane rather than JF-17 ??

Since it is not a nice idea to use JF-17 as a test bed alone ..

Its a new engine, so JF-17 is going to be the first one to have it as it has been made by keeping JF-17 in mind.

 

[Sapper]

The RD-93 is a derivation of the RD-33 used by the MiG-29 fighter not RD-33 series 3.

RD-33 series 3 is version of RD-33 for model with a longer service life used on later or upgraded old variants of the MiG-29 such as MiG-29M and MiG-29SMT. A pair of RD-33 series 3 engine equipped with TVN is currently undergoing flight tests as a component of the MiG-29OVT jet fighter.




Source


Sapper's point is not wrong abt MTBO (Mean time between outages)

Dear,

Thats why i said earlier that I don't want to prolong this unnecessary conversation. When did i say that RD93 is not derived from RD-33, it is. RD-33 was a very shitty engine when it came out ... and there are lots of websites to confirm this. Its proposed MTBO was of 300 hrs, while actual performance showed an MTBO of <150 hours, which was not acceptable at all, so in series 2 and series 3, new technologies was used to enhance life and reliability.

Please see RD-33 problems from this link
Aviapedia Klimov fighter engines video. RD-33

Series 1 and Series 2 are no longer in production as they were phased out in favor of Series 3 around 1995~2000.

Please tell me what the MTBO and service life of RD-93. I want to see the same kind of counter-evidence that i presented.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Awesome]

Winning: Russia And China Wait For Someone To Blink

July 8, 2010: Russia is increasingly upset at how blatantly China has been copying Russian military equipment, and selling the copies in competition with the Russian originals. Particularly annoying is China’s building copies of the Su-27 (as the J-11 and the carrier version as the J-15.) Now Russia is threatening to play hardball, by refusing to sell China the high-performance engines needed for Chinese built fighters. A Chinese order for several hundred Russian RD93 jet engines from Russia is on hold. This order is believed to be for an ungraded RD93, with additional thrust. India, currently the major customer for Russian weapons, was not happy about this engine sale, which will be used for Chinese made fighters sold to Pakistan. As of last year, India and Russia had worked out an unpublicized compromise to allow the sale, but now Russia is threatening to halt shipments if China does not back off on building illegal copies of Russian aircraft. China is a major customer for RD93 engines (originally designed for the MiG-29), and has already bought over a thousand of them. The RD93 engines currently cost about $2.5 million each. Halting the sale will cost Russian engine manufacturers over a billion dollars in revenue. But the Russians are tired of getting played by the Chinese, and believe that Chinese attempts to copy the RD93 are not succeeding, and China will be forced to pay licensing fees for the stolen Russian tech, or else equip their aircraft with inferior Chinese copies (the WS-13) of the Russian engines.
The Chinese made JF-17 (also known as FC-1) jet fighters are exported to Pakistan, and are being offered to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as inexpensive alternatives to American and Russian fighters. Hundreds of JF-17s are also going to be built in Pakistan, mainly using Chinese parts.

China has been developing a similar (apparently identical) engine to the RD93, the WS-13. Actually, this effort was aided by Russia for a while, by selling China technology needed for the manufacture of key engine components. Russia wasn't happy about this, because they didn't want competition in the low cost jet engine market. Then again, China has a history of stealing technology it cannot buy, so the Russians tried to make the best of a bad situation. China says the WS-13 is ready for service. The Russians believe otherwise. Building high performance military jet engines is difficult, and China has had problems mastering this kind of stuff. Not that they will not eventually acquire the skills, but until they do, they need the Russian made RD93s. Or so the Russians believe. Officially, China is still ordering RD93s because they cannot produce enough of their WS-13s.

Pakistan began receivingJF-17s three years ago, and activated its first JF-17 squadron five month ago. Last year, it signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1).

When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan three years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Most of the JF-17 electronics are Western, with Italian firms being major suppliers.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and use radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter.

 

[theboss]

The russians can moan and groan all they want but sooner of later the Chinese tactic of "if you cant convience them, buy them" comes into play! Also China is much bigger customer for RD93 vs India so economy talks especially at times of ressecion. Pakistan may start looking toward french or swedish company co-develop a modren jet engine for its needs liberating itself from China and Russia.

 

[theboss]

The chinese decided to address a lot of issues by making extensive use of titanium. While this added to cost of engine it has come with its own benefit. And when we are talking about investing billions, a few more millions wouldnt hurt!

 

[Sinnerman108]

I have a question if taxi trails have already been taken place with ws-13, this means what ever modifications were required to accommodate a new engine has been already done.
My question is from this stage how long will it take for the WS-13 to fully equip the next batch of the JF-17s and secondly what are the parameters/benchmarks that are kept in mind before installing a new engine on a single engine jet.

Salman since you are an engineer perhaps you can enlighten me on this one.

Thanks

Well to be honest I don't know exactly how long will it take.

but the fact that it is a taxi trials means that they are "testing" as yet.

In my opinion and experience it would take at least 2 years to be fully confident of slapping in another engine.

Again that totally depends on the rate of work and how much simulation did they do and if they are prepared to make the adjustments required.

See here is the difference how we work and how chineese / pak work.

Imagine a fuselage and an engine in it. We have already gone through the mounts and structural testing part before.

think of all the electronics / hydraulics that are next to the engine.

If the same change was being done where i work, we would assess the vibration/ temperature / data integrity etc etc etc tests

Every little piece will be tested for tolerance and validated again.

to make sure that in battle once the pilot hits the button there are no surprises.

THAT is the difference between western and chineese / soviet technology.

they just can't get to learn the concept of traceability matrix.

 

[nomi007]

what u mesa by the word taxi trail.idiot Haanzo
jf-17 is much better that tejas. this is not i m saying but France & Russia said

 

[conworldus]

I think it normally requires a full year of testing for reliability before the WS-13 can be mass deployed. Russia is getting paranoid about this whole copying thing. China is copying way less now than say, 10 years ago, because China has already learned most of the Russian techs anyway. There is no more benefit copying Russian stuff. It is funny that they only start to get annoyed now.

 

[karan.1970]

what u mesa by the word taxi trail.idiot Haanzo
jf-17 is much better that tejas. this is not i m saying but France & Russia said

sources please...

 

[Arsalan]

10% more thrust means how much more speed we are talking about. Current max speed is stated as 1.8 with RD93, are we talking about crossing mach 2+ with 10% more thrust, can someone point comparison of WS13 and RD93 with their dry thrust and max thrust?

not really,,
with increased thrust, this engine also have an ncreased weight.
the thrust to wight ration will remain pretty much the same

 

[sam27]

China is copying way less now than say, 10 years ago, because China has already learned most of the Russian techs anyway. There is no more benefit copying Russian stuff.

So do u think Russians will sell the engines on the pretext that Chinese are copying less than they use to back in the day.

Wow, I could have explain that logic to my teacher in school. I will not copy as much as I use to in 3rd grade.