Falcon V Fulcrum Turkey Shoot

[Storm Force]

F16 is a great war plane. I would bet on the F16 WINNING any engagement with a mig29 most of the time.

But it has been surpassed by far superior planes NOW. ie

Euro canards esp Typhoon and rafale and the breed of FLANKERS ie su35 & su30mki.

For PAF its a pity that they are building their future fleet on chinease fighters like JFT & FC20.

I,M SURE 150 F16/52s would hjave given the indians nitemares

 

[danger007]

F16 is a great war plane. I would bet on the F16 WINNING any engagement with a mig29 most of the time.

But it has been surpassed by far superior planes NOW. ie

Euro canards esp Typhoon and rafale and the breed of FLANKERS ie su35 & su30mki.

For PAF its a pity that they are building their future fleet on chinease fighters like JFT & FC20.

I,M SURE 150 F16/52s would hjave given the indians nitemares

i can say good defensive position but not night mare.

 

[Storm Force]

I WAS TRYING TO BE NICE TO OUR PDF HOSTS by bigging up their old bird the mighty F16 lol

 

[John Doe]

What photographic proof exists of it.
What proof is there of the lock-on incident by the Mig-29's during Kargil? apart from hearsay?
After all.. the man credited for telling the story has many dubious claims from his performance in the 65 and 71 wars..

Good idea.. and there are other reports of western jets going up against the Fulcrum in mock dogfights.. all available on the internet for those interested in posting a counterpoint.

The proof of the MiG25 supersonic flight over Lahore is that the G.o.Pak. protested formally (IIRC) to the G.O.I. about this act. It was not denied by the latter.

Who is this person who made the claims of MiG 29's locking up on Vipers? I am genuinely curious to hear who this is.

About the counterpoint , here is one that I have posted earlier. I will say this though: I am convinced of what Chogy ( and you) says , about the ergonomics of the Viper trumping it over our 'Baaz'.
From my old post:

The USAF's 480th Fighter Squadron took part in the "Thracian Star" exercise at Graf Ignatievo in Bulgaria and went against Bulgarian Mig-29, Mig-21 and Su-25 jets.

Here is what Capt.Lubomir Slavov , a highly experienced Mig 29 pilot has to say about going against the F-16. IAF fans are going to like this!
I took a photo of the the January issue of this respected magazine which I don't want to name here.

 

[John Doe]

And Here is what Chogy had to say about the above post back then:

I'll put it this way, and I don't mean to be blunt... I think there was a period of time (probably 1980 to maybe 1995) when the USAF fleet of F-15, F-117, and F-16, their avionics and radar, and especially the training received (which was massive under pres. Reagan), made the USAF uncontested due to a combination of quality and quantity. Those were the days when the MiG-29 was unrefined, the Su-27 was little known, Soviet missiles were a bit suspect, and most nations undertrained their crews; they couldn't afford it. Guys were lucky to get 2 or 3 sorties a month, when 3 or 4 a week was typical for U.S./NATO crews.

Since then, Russia has produced much more refined jets, their avionics have gone digital, are better, and missiles have proven themselves. Nations have also learned the value of extensive training, and the old Soviet GCI-based combat model has been tossed out in favor of independent action and initiative. And here comes China on a developmental high-speed train.

With the sole exception of the F-22, which remains on a technological pinnacle, everything else these days is going to come down to training, overall tactics, ECM/ECCM, C & C. Training is the key, IMO.

And I request you to read this post by me which has a very good write up by Johann Koeck of the Luftwaffe:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ainst-usaf-f-16-block-50-a-3.html#post1463697

 

[Windjammer]

i didn't find any credible source. i don't like to talk blindly, no wonder if that kind of statement made by Indian you people will jump to ask Source. it smelling stupid speculation only. IF an combat jet like SU-30mki intruded into Pakistani city it will be breaking news. When it happened.

Seems you completely missed out on post#82.

@SANTRO: Same i will say MKI chased F-16 to Lahore,when it intruded Indian land. will you accept it with out any source.

And framed the MKI with rearward looking cameras.!!! ....quite the possibility??? Agreed.

 

[lem34]

Seems you completely missed out on post#82.


And framed the MKI with rearward looking cameras.!!! ....quite the possibility??? Agreed.

Sir that is truely incredible I salute you

 

[Windjammer]

Sir that is truely incredible I salute you

My dear, we are dealing with incredible members with incredible ideas and thoughts and above all with INCREDIBLE memory. LOL.

 

[John Doe]

And framed the MKI with rearward looking cameras.!!!

What picture of the MKI by which PAF jet? Repeating this claim won't make it true, you know.

When so many members have asked you, surely you can come up with a photo, no?

Firstly, is it your claim that you have seen aforementioned photo yourself?

Please share this photo in that case! Paintings don't count, ok?

This is what actually happened. BTW, this has nothin to do with Kargil, since this incident happened after the Mumbai attacks!
"There was also another incident about an Indian plane violating Pakistan airspace which apparently led to a F-16 scramble on the Pakistan side. Islamabad lodged a strong diplomatic protest. India denied with equal conviction. But at the same time the Air Force was asked to carry out an investigation.

The result was that there was indeed some violation by a reconnaissance plane of the Aviation Research Centre, RAW’s air wing, that was conducting a sortie along the LoC. This aircraft, perhaps, went too close to the LoC, violating the rule that both sides will not send their aircraft that near."

@SANTRO: Same i will say MKI chased F-16 to Lahore,when it intruded Indian land. will you accept it with out any source.

So WindJ, by your logic, no proof is required for this above statement by "danger007" and we should consider it 100% true and acknowledge that there are photos circulating within the IAF showing the F-16 in deep trouble with a lock by the IAF MKI?!?!?!?!

Now that is INCREDIBLE!

Lets all now drop this whole derailment by 'he who shall not be respected for his untruthful posts' and rather discuss the Shaheen vs. the Baaz posts, shall we? I know I will.....

 

[danger007]

Seems you completely missed out on post#82.


And framed the MKI with rearward looking cameras.!!! ....quite the possibility??? Agreed.

Windjammer whats there in 82 post. Anyways i dnt know why feeling so much good in nothing.

You can claim PAF F-16 locked RAPTOR. who are going to stop you.

 

[krash]

Well, I have a serious question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, You have stated that MKI was locked on by F-16.

..Which missile?....

In 2008, F-16s of PAF inventory was non BVR capable and rumor is that the interceptor was F-16.

Heat seeking missiles are fire and forget missiles, you do not need a 'radar lock' for the same.

Can you explain?

I don't know but is it possible to lock down MKI flanker with F-16 without BVR??

BVR missiles too are fire and forget. You can use the aim-9 series with or without the radar. When a lock is achieved using the radar a diamond appears over the TD box and a lock tone from the seeker is sounded inside the helmet.

Its something like the above picture. I know the pic has been altered and I know the it says aim-120 but thats inaccurate. For the AIM-120 a lock is represented with a star inside the TD Box. Or at least thats what Iv gathered from many flight sims. Could be wrong of course....

 

[Birbal]

The F-16's main advantages were easier operation and ergonomics (HOTAS and fewer switches) and better situational awareness (data presentation and cockpit visibility). The Mig-29's main advantages were its helmet mounted targeting for off boresight missiles, somewhat better maneuverability, and infrared sensor. I'd say when two pilots with limited training and flying hours fight each other, the F-16 would come out on top due to its pilot-friendliness. However, with experienced pilots, the Mig-29 pilot would be at ease with his aircraft and come out on top.

 

[redgriffin]

Santro, Windjammer kiyon mujh de agay veen vajanday paiay oo. Inhon ne baaz nahi ana. I know what you guys are saying is the truth, hell anyone who personally knows any PAF GDP knows you guys are right as these anecdotes are as we say 'Zuban zade Aam' in PAF circles. Hud pics, can see if one can pull the strings/clout but won't be allowed 2 be disseminated, right boys.
''Hamein such ka pata hae or hum mutmaeen hain, jin k picchwaray mein chamoonay lartay hain larnay do.''

 

[ptldM3]

First of all, "locking someone up" is about as hard as clicking an icon with a mouse pointer... There's nothing interesting or praiseworthy about it.

The MiG-29 has some very good aerodynamic features, but user-friendliness and above all avionics and sensor/weapon integration is a generation behind. High AOA maneuvering doesn't score kills nearly as well as a fast detect-shoot-splash at 10 nm using advanced systems.

The German Mig-29's were achieving kills up to 10 nautical miles. Source:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...L1k-Ex&usg=AFQjCNFzOuHqy7KuX1avSkZKKx7XbBBrIg

Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period.

The point of the thread was to pump up fellow fanboys and spread miss information, both have worked exceptionally well, the fanboys are pumped up over some edited youtube video that misrepresents the true events of the exercise. The Germans made it clear that they dominated, what you see in the video are Mig-29 kills but since the video is made by an F-16 fanboy you are not shown the F-16 kills, thus you are only seeing one side of the story. It is like editing a boxing match, you might edit one boxer striking a few good jabs but and the end that boxer got knocked out.

Pakistan operates F-16, India operates Mig-29's hence the thread and the phrase 'turkeyshoot' (to pump up the fan boys). However, there are things to remember:

1. The German Mig-29's were Mig-29A's (1980's avionics).

2. The German Mig-29's were downgraded (Laszlo data link and the SRO IFF removed)

3. The Mig-29A did not have FBW

4. The Mig-29's were analog.


Even with the earliest and downgraded Mig-29's the Germans still dominated the F-16's up to 10 nautical miles (18+km). The problem is this, The Indian Air Force Mig-29's are being upgraded to UPG standards; moreover, India is receiving the new Mig-29K naval variant. So to some it up the Indian Mig-29's have modern avionics as apposed to 1980's avionic that the Germans were using. Indian Mig-29's have data-link, the Germans did not. Indian Mig-29's have FBW, the Germans did not. Indian Mig-29's have glass cockpits and friendly pilot interface, the Germans did not.

All around the F-16 block 50/52 is better than the Mig-29A with the exception of WVR combat. The newer Mig-29s are another story, the Mig-29K, Mig-29SMT/UPG are much more refined all around. In my opionion the newer Mig-29's are quite equal to the F-16 Block 50/52 in BVR while still having an edge in WVR.

 

[John Doe]

Hey, Chogy did not say "Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period."

It was the German MiG 29 pilot Johann Koeck