Early Child Marriage Bill To Be Tabled In NA Soon; Says Dr. Mazari

[HAIDER]

For what? To test for diseases? Well I think they passed a bill in NA to check for Thalassemia

https://tribune.com.pk/story/132001...l-assembly-passes-thalassemia-screening-bill/

AIDS test bill was also pending. Don't know why that linger.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1520077/132000-people-living-hivaids-pakistan-survey/

 

[Zibago]

AIDS test bill was also pending. Don't know why that linger.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1520077/132000-people-living-hivaids-pakistan-survey/

It should be implemented

 

[HAIDER]

It should be implemented

First cousin marriages in Pakistani communities leading to 'appalling' disabilities among children
Baroness Flather, a cross-bench peer, says it is 'absolutely appalling' that first cousin marriages in Pakistani communities are leading to 'so much disability among children'

Couples who are getting married should be forced to have a DNA test first to ensure they are not cousins amid growing concern about incest within Pakistani communities, Britain's first Asian peer has claimed.

Baroness Flather, a former Tory who now sits as a cross-bencher, said in the House of Lords that it is "absolutely appalling" that first cousin marriages in Pakistani communities are leading to "so much disability among children".

She said: "There are a lot of first-cousin marriages in certain communities, particularly among Pakistanis who come from the Pakistani Kashmir area. We know so much about DNA now, but there is so much disability among the children, which is absolutely appalling.

"You go to any such family and there will be four or five children, at least one or two of whom will have some disability. That is absolutely unacceptable, and if we cannot do anything about it, is it fair to the children?"

Baroness Flather, a former barrister who was born in the Pakistani city of Lahore when it was part of India, said: "Never mind the parents — it is not fair to the children that they should be allowed to become disabled because of a social practice. It is a social practice which does not belong in today’s age, when we know so much about DNA. There should at least be some rule which says that you must have a DNA examination before your marriage can be registered."

First-cousin marriages, which are are legal in the UK, are practised within Britain’s Pakistani community, as well as among some Arab and African families. Medical data previously suggested that while British Pakistanis were responsible for 3 per cent of all births, they accounted for 30 per cent of British children born with a genetic illness.

The noble Baroness Flather also raised concerns about Sharia law, under which women struggle to get a divorce.

She said: "I know I am probably talking about Muslims, but we now have this business of sharia marriages. It is appalling that the man can get a divorce by just asking for it, while a woman may have to wait years, and may still not get it. She can get a British divorce, but not a sharia divorce.

Noble Lords may ask, “Why does that matter?”, and I asked that of those women. They replied, “It means that we can’t go to Pakistan”.

"If they go there, the husband can come and take the children away, no matter what age they are. In any case, the husband can take the children from a sharia marriage when they are seven. All marriages should be automatically registered in this country. It is not fair to the women that some British women — they are British women when they come here — are treated in a different and unacceptable way from others."

 

[shah_123]

Liberal baboons also have problems with cousin marriage.

 

[Dubious]

The noble Baroness Flather also raised concerns about Sharia law, under which women struggle to get a divorce.

This shows the lack of knowledge of honorable baroness! Shariah is prob 1 of the only religion that calls KHULLA the haq of the woman and she can get it even if the husband isnt in court coz it is her haq! She can even get it for just claiming in court she cant live with the husband anymore!

while a woman may have to wait years, and may still not get it. She can get a British divorce, but not a sharia divorce.

Another BS! This woman should have done a basic google search if she intended to talk about an issue she has no clue about!

"If they go there, the husband can come and take the children away, no matter what age they are. In any case, the husband can take the children from a sharia marriage when they are seven. All marriages should be automatically registered in this country.

Another imbecile thing to state! What people do is not what Shariah should be blamed of! Instead she should have read up what Shariah really is and "preached" to the people that they are wrong as their religion states this and they do that....instead of blatantly saying BS...Representing what people do as Shariah....she failed to distinguish herself from the very illiterates who also dont know what Shariah is and proclaim what they do to be so!

 

[TMA]

Not necessarily!

State says no to drinking, they drink in hiding/ underground parties...openly if it is elite party...

Heck they dont even listen to science : Science says drinking, smoking is bad ...they still do so!

People who dont listen to reason, wont listen to anything!


Well British werent such angels! They just chose what suited them/ or how they were able to "control and get favours" rather than "for their subjects".....even something as simple as infrastructure building was done for their own trade not for the common people! This can also be seen in Africa and America where even when they made schools and transportation, they made sure that there was segregation! So it wasnt for the "subjects" as much as for a "feel good" attitude!


O I assure you there is no BIG challenge...ANYONE saying so disagrees that Islam is for the whole world and for entirety!

When the base is the same, 1 god, Final messenger, manners (table manners, right of neighbor, and the like is all same) work on that!

But instead of working on similarities, people want to dwell on the differences! When ALLAH will ask you about your prayers 1st rather than ask you about the inheritance division in your second cousin's twice removed's case! But people are more interested in other people's problems, problems they never face nor are interested in solving over the real issues!

In every jurisprudence, the law is the same for theft (I am not talking about chopping hands...that has its own bearings), raping, women rights, right of parent and husband....These are common grounds which some radical morons fight over even when there is no differences! So the problem is morons not the laws!

As for specific laws which differ, refer to your Imam...Or like I do, read what the 4 Imams did and take which suits the current example the best. Because every Imam had to improvise CERTAIN times based on the situation!

MOST to LEAD LIFE ESP is present in the Quran, other things like Mauwalid Nabi celebrations, Naat and whatnot is up to the situation! If your country is poor, I am sure ALLAH will not hold it against you to waste resources on LARGE gatherings and lighting! If you are in a Non Muslim country I am sure ALLAH is not pleased with you parking cars like a lunatic for Jummah and offend the non-Muslim locals! In fact the right of the locals comes before your craziness to rush to prayers! Because the 2 extra mins you spend in making sure the non Muslim is not troubled would be rewarded over the 2 mins you didnt spend and made the local's life miserable by blocking his/her car!

So, man is repeatedly told in the QURAN to use the mind for good! To walk in the path of HAQ...all these are signs to use common sense and not to cheat another/ kissi ka haq nai marna! THIS is basics which is common all over Islam...yet we see polluting this strand!


And that is wrong..when people understand that...THEN only we can regulate something! Until then whatever Islam says goes down the drain esp if apni man mani kerni hai!

So when the State says no drinking that is because that Islam says no to drinking. So there is no conflict.
But when it comes to other issues like this child marriage business...Islam is more diverse on this matter about the age of marriage....Islam does not say minimum age is 18 or 16 or 21. Islam says that puberty and sound mind which is different for different people. It could be 14 or 17 or 23....then the State will end up "narrowing" the openness of Islamic Law if the State enforces a set age....

Islam is for all of Mankind no doubt and history proves this... but my point was that a Nation State model of a State is the not the best way to express the diversity of plurality of Islamic law. It "narrows" the diversity of Islamic Law. Perhaps the model of the State ought to be changed to allow for this like in pre-Colonial times???

Like for example I believe Christians and other religious minorities ought to have their own courts for their own issues.

 

[Zibago]

So when the State says no drinking that is because that Islam says no to drinking.

You cant compare the two not drinking doesnot harm anyone early child marriage can ruin one,s life

Islam is more diverse on this matter about the age of marriage....Islam does not say minimum age is 18 or 16 or 21.

That is your opinion you are more than welcome to challenge it in court as unIslamic no one is stopping you

then the State will end up "narrowing" the openness of Islamic Law if the State enforces a set age....

On matters where there is not much consensus majority vote was used to decide things even in the old days

but my point was that a Nation State model of a State is the not the best way to express the diversity of plurality of Islamic law

Could it be most folks dont agree with what you want?

Liberal baboons also have problems with cousin marriage.

Um did you read the part where they mentioned higher risk of disabilities ?

 

[Dubious]

So when the State says no drinking that is because that Islam says no to drinking. So there is no conflict.
But when it comes to other issues like this child marriage business...Islam is more diverse on this matter about the age of marriage....Islam does not say minimum age is 18 or 16 or 21. Islam says that puberty and sound mind which is different for different people. It could be 14 or 17 or 23....then the State will end up "narrowing" the openness of Islamic Law if the State enforces a set age....

By allowing a puberty hit 13 yr old to marry at 18 wont kill her! It surely isnt of disadvantage either!

By allowing a puberty hit at 11 to marry at 18 instead of 11 might save her not just early child birth but also being manipulated or suppressed! Allowing her a few extra yrs as a child is not harmful in any ways!

No one is narrowing anything when protecting the next generation...something parents and state are supposed to do! Now if parents are marrying their 11 yr olds for money (11 yr old in today's world still plays with dolls in rural areas and in urban areas are not exactly responsible enough to be a wife let alone a mother!)...How is that ISLAMIC?

Islam is for all of Mankind no doubt and history proves this... but my point was that a Nation State model of a State is the not the best way to express the diversity of plurality of Islamic law. It "narrows" the diversity of Islamic Law. Perhaps the model of the State ought to be changed to allow for this like in pre-Colonial times???

It doesnt matter what the model is...One can decide for themselves! A label is not everything! It can be a diverse "model" never seen before where goods of other models are merged! How does that effect what one wishes to call it?

Like for example I believe Christians and other religious minorities ought to have their own courts for their own issues

Minorities have their own law in Pakistan!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39233567
https://hrma.punjab.gov.pk/

 

[TMA]

By allowing a puberty hit 13 yr old to marry at 18 wont kill her! It surely isnt of disadvantage either!

By allowing a puberty hit at 11 to marry at 18 instead of 11 might save her not just early child birth but also being manipulated or suppressed! Allowing her a few extra yrs as a child is not harmful in any ways!

No one is narrowing anything when protecting the next generation...something parents and state are supposed to do! Now if parents are marrying their 11 yr olds for money (11 yr old in today's world still plays with dolls in rural areas and in urban areas are not exactly responsible enough to be a wife let alone a mother!)...How is that ISLAMIC?


It doesnt matter what the model is...One can decide for themselves! A label is not everything! It can be a diverse "model" never seen before where goods of other models are merged! How does that effect what one wishes to call it?


Minorities have their own law in Pakistan!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39233567
https://hrma.punjab.gov.pk/

Forbidding what is permissible is the issue. Advising against something that is permissible is a completely different thing. This is the issue. What the State ought to do is educate people on the sensible way of marrying of their children and preventing them from being exploited for money. Making a law and then trying to impose it on people especially those who marry off their children aged less than 18 will be difficult especially when they will have legal opinions of many Muslim scholars of Old and New potentially supporting their position.

By diverse model would you then accept that a 13 year old girl can be married off to a 35 year old man? As this could be allowed by Islamic Law if the parties concerned agree and certain conditions are met?
As I understand it, the proposed Bill will say no to this simply because the age of one person is below what is deemed necessary. The Bill will not look into the individual circumstances of the proposed marriage.

You cant compare the two not drinking doesnot harm anyone early child marriage can ruin one,s life

That is your opinion you are more than welcome to challenge it in court as unIslamic no one is stopping you

On matters where there is not much consensus majority vote was used to decide things even in the old days

Could it be most folks dont agree with what you want?


Um did you read the part where they mentioned higher risk of disabilities ?

Of course it is my opinion! All of this opinion if you break it down. What the Supreme Court decides is ultimately legal opinion!
What Muftis do when the give a fatwa is a legal opinion. What Parliament does when she passes a Bill is giver her opinion!
Now my opinion does not count for much as I am not a trained Mufti.
But likewise the State is not "Islamically trained" and when she starts making "opinions" that narrow valid diverse legal (Islamic) opinions, it is a bit like a layman imposing his opinion on a specialist. The Layman's opinions are not credible in front of specialist even though the Layman could be right and specialist wrong!!!

When you say a vote was decided in the Old Days, I presume you mean pre Colonial India? If so who were partaking in the votes? Was it qualified Islamic Scholars who had Ijazaa and chain of transmission going all the way back to the Seal ﷺ?

How many of the Parliamentarians and Judges in Pakistani State courts have this sort of training before they give their opinions???

If you get time watch this lecture.

 

[Dubious]

Forbidding what is permissible is the issue.

It is not permissible to marry a child! Like I said the mental maturity now a days is not the same as back in the time!

Advising against something that is permissible is a completely different thing. This is the issue.

Nowhere is it permissible to marry someone with a child brain! Back in the day women were educated to be a good wife...but in today's world that is not the case even a 20 yr old girl sometimes cant build a home! Children now a days dont have the patience, the built nor the mentality! Back in the day wars were common, children had to grow up quicker...Today's 15 yr old has their noses in the phone rather than knowing people relations!

Marrying for the sake of being recognized married is no longer a thing! Today's kids want marriage to mean something and that comes with mental maturity!

You can tell mental maturity is not LINKED to puberty coz we have mentally challenged children who have reached puberty! Meaning you can have 1 and not the other ...therefore, both need to be reached for Nikkah to be valid! And that doesnt happen at 11 yr old anymore!

By diverse model would you then accept that a 13 year old girl can be married off to a 35 year old man? As this could be allowed by Islamic Law if the parties concerned agree and certain conditions are met?

It can happen doesnt mean it must! Today's 13 yr old doesnt have the same mental age as 13 yr olds say during my grandparents age! Heck even 35 yr olds have the mentality of an immature 12 yr old!

For example in Islam you are allowed to marry 4 but doesnt mean you HAVE TO! It is allowed but not compulsory! PLUS it literally says if you cant do justice marry only 1!!

As I understand it, the proposed Bill will say no to this simply because the age of one person is below what is deemed necessary. The Bill will not look into the individual circumstances of the proposed marriage.

Which is fine like I said if a girl attained puberty at 12-13 and got married at 18...It isnt a loss of any form to anyone! 5 yrs due to the bill is fine! Pregnant at 18-19 is better than getting pregnant at 13-14!

Each of the four classical legal schools equate the age of majority with the attainment of puberty and the demonstration of adequate mental development.

http://www.islamandquran.org/fatwas/what-is-the-minimum-marriageable-age-of-a-little-girl.html

Now tell me can an 11 yr old manage mehr?

 

[TMA]

It is not permissible to marry a child! Like I said the mental maturity now a days is not the same as back in the time!


Nowhere is it permissible to marry someone with a child brain! Back in the day women were educated to be a good wife...but in today's world that is not the case even a 20 yr old girl sometimes cant build a home! Children now a days dont have the patience, the built nor the mentality! Back in the day wars were common, children had to grow up quicker...Today's 15 yr old has their noses in the phone rather than knowing people relations!

Marrying for the sake of being recognized married is no longer a thing! Today's kids want marriage to mean something and that comes with mental maturity!

You can tell mental maturity is not LINKED to puberty coz we have mentally challenged children who have reached puberty! Meaning you can have 1 and not the other ...therefore, both need to be reached for Nikkah to be valid! And that doesnt happen at 11 yr old anymore!


It can happen doesnt mean it must! Today's 13 yr old doesnt have the same mental age as 13 yr olds say during my grandparents age! Heck even 35 yr olds have the mentality of an immature 12 yr old!

For example in Islam you are allowed to marry 4 but doesnt mean you HAVE TO! It is allowed but not compulsory! PLUS it literally says if you cant do justice marry only 1!!


Which is fine like I said if a girl attained puberty at 12-13 and got married at 18...It isnt a loss of any form to anyone! 5 yrs due to the bill is fine! Pregnant at 18-19 is better than getting pregnant at 13-14!

You are correct that most 13 years old are not ready, hell most 22 year olds are not ready. But does that mean the State ought to raise the age to say 24.
Cos there are exceptions. There may be a small minority of under 18 year old who are ready mentally and the State would then prevent this simply based upon age.
What the State ought to do, to preserve the flexibility of Islamic legal opinion and the diversity of human beings in her territory, is look at each individual case of "underage marriage" and see if there was exploitation or forcing involved rather than a blanket ban.
But this would be extremely labour intensive for the State...

Statutory law is applied like a "blanket" and this historically was not the usual way Islamic law was applied...it came from Colonialism and since Pakistan is free ostensibly of it...she should try and re-integrate the more tolerant way of applying Islamic law.

 

[Dubious]

You are correct that most 13 years old are not ready, hell most 22 year olds are not ready. But does that mean the State ought to raise the age to say 24.

No, the state can only advice and form laws to ensure no child is abused because given the right to the parent has not been advantageous to our next generation!

However, 18 is deemed "acceptable" in today's society and since Islam is a dean for every era...it only said puberty and mental maturity which changes through time (as we can clearly see)....Therefore, state can only say for today's time and laws need to be fluid so that in say 50 yrs time they can change the laws to fit the society then!

Cos there are exceptions. There may be a small minority of under 18 year old who are ready mentally and the State would then prevent this simply based upon age.

Yes, but a very small minority who if wait few yrs to reach 18 wont lose a limb or anything! But saving the majority is the plan! Like alcohol because it harms the human body is haram though it may have some advantages...the larger good is to avoid it!

What the State ought to do, to preserve the flexibility of Islamic legal opinion and the diversity of human beings in her territory, is look at each individual case of "underage marriage" and see if there was exploitation or forcing involved rather than a blanket ban.

1) that is not practically possible, everyone knows people can lie! They can lie now too...but an 11 yr old will def look very different from say an 18 yr old but a 16 can be forced to look like an 18 yr old...plus if these "small minority" who mature 2-5 yrs earlier can wait.. So, if a girl becomes mature at 13, she wont decompose if not married right there and then. She can wait until 18 and while doing so can complete her high school and be better future mothers at 18 than at 13! Do you not agree?

Or do you want 13 yr old disgruntled children who were not allowed to enjoy life and not educated enough to raise children raising the next generation just coz some "minor % of people can hit the marriageable maturity?"

Statutory law is applied like a "blanket" and this historically was not the usual way Islamic law was applied...it came from Colonialism and since Pakistan is free ostensibly of it...she should try and re-integrate the more tolerant way of applying Islamic law.

Historically such things didnt need to be regulated! Islam allows governance and allows the state to regulate certain things ESP if the citizens cant seem to be making the right choices!

 

[TMA]

No, the state can only advice and form laws to ensure no child is abused because given the right to the parent has not been advantageous to our next generation!

However, 18 is deemed "acceptable" in today's society and since Islam is a dean for every era...it only said puberty and mental maturity which changes through time (as we can clearly see)....Therefore, state can only say for today's time and laws need to be fluid so that in say 50 yrs time they can change the laws to fit the society then!


Yes, but a very small minority who if wait few yrs to reach 18 wont lose a limb or anything! But saving the majority is the plan! Like alcohol because it harms the human body is haram though it may have some advantages...the larger good is to avoid it!


1) that is not practically possible, everyone knows people can lie! They can lie now too...but an 11 yr old will def look very different from say an 18 yr old but a 16 can be forced to look like an 18 yr old...plus if these "small minority" who mature 2-5 yrs earlier can wait.. So, if a girl becomes mature at 13, she wont decompose if not married right there and then. She can wait until 18 and while doing so can complete her high school and be better future mothers at 18 than at 13! Do you not agree?

Or do you want 13 yr old disgruntled children who were not allowed to enjoy life and not educated enough to raise children raising the next generation just coz some "minor % of people can hit the marriageable maturity?"


Historically such things didnt need to be regulated! Islam allows governance and allows the state to regulate certain things ESP if the citizens cant seem to be making the right choices!

If Islam has allowed flexibility in a matter it is dangerous for a State to narrow that flexibility especially when that State is not run by qualified people despite calling itself Islamic.
Like I said my worry is not just marriage bill but in general.
This can provoke a major backlash and cause destability.
It is Islamic scholarship who have failed and emphasis should be put on them.

 

[HalfMoon]

Marriage does not equal SEX !!!!!!!!!

So are you saying this bill is only to prevent marriage and pre-marital teenage sex is still permissible?

no girl wants to have sex at that age

Are you sure about that?

 

[Wa Muhammada]

No. Just don't.
Puberty is the criteria of marriage, not age.
Islam allows marriage after puberty whichever age it comes.
Because hormones change and urges come.
If a girs physically adult at 11 , she should be allowed marriage if there's a need.
Legally forcing her to wait another 7-8 years is not fair and we will end up like western countries where 13 year olds get pregnant and it's common to see 15 year old mother, but they cannot marry and csnnca get their urges satisfied the appropriate way.

This is the age we live in and since this govt has come into power we are seeing attempts to counter Allah ta’alas commands - Qadyani’s, promoting population control and now this. For me this is the making of Riasat e Dajjal.

I agree with you and at the same I don’t think kids should be married off before puberty, that’s just wrong.

Why has this govt rejected a plea by Ramesh Kumar, a PTI member to ban alcohol sale in Pakistan???? Isn’t that what you would do if you were making a riasat e madina?