Do Pakistanis Really Want Change?

[Redbeanpaste]

Yes Pakistan will change but it needs to hurt more before people are ready for it. I think if we continue down this road in 10-15 years people will have had enough and popular opinion will force change.


We get the government we deserve.

 

[Tamerlane]

Hopefully our lifetimes will be more than 5-10 years. Pakistan needs 20 years of political stability and economic development to become a prosperous country. (Erdogan has been ruling Turkey for 20+ years).

We can achieve a growth rate of 10% per year. In 20 years our economy will grow 8 times what it is now. From $350 billion to $2.8 trillion. Exports of $400 billion and $500 billion foreign reserves.

The people of Pakistan will only need to make major sacrifices if they have to fight a violent civil war to bring the rogue generals under control. Otherwise it will slow and steady progress over two decades.

The biggest sacrifice that is required is from the thug class that is getting a free ride at the cost of Pakistan's 250 million people. These are the generals, politicians, bureaucrats etc. They won't willingly sacrifice anything but they will have to be compelled.

 

[Dalit]

Serious question, but do Pakistanis really want change? A “Naya Pakistan” as Imran Khan put it?

I don’t think the majority of people understand the growing pains of accomplishing that.

Decades of mismanagement and corruption have caused such decay that even if Imran Khan wanted to, nothing would be accomplished in our lifetimes. No great nations are built in 5 or 10 years.

This is one thing Imran Khan did not explain to the people. When he became PM, that should be have been his focus on his televised address….that “we should be prepared for hardship so our children live better lives”.

What he wanted was noble, but people honestly thought in 5 years everything would be great and we’d be Norway or Japan. I saw people tweeting pictures of Japan and saying “Peshawar 2023”…like wtf?

Nobody explained the growing pains that we would have to endure….for Pakistan to become a Japan, a Korea, a China, our generation will essentially have to sacrifice and pay deeply so that our future generations live better lives.

All great nations in this world today went through a period of sacrifice….you can read about it in every nations history….there was always that one group of people who said….”yes we will endure this pain so our children and grandchildren live better lives than us”.

Is this Pakistani generation really ready to do that? I don’t think so.

Pakistan is an extremely corrupt society run by bandits. The military generals run a commercial entity. Nowhere in the world will you find a military that runs banks, property schemes etc. The politicians are no different. In fact all institutions within Pakistan are involved in mass corruption and self enrichment.

There will never be progress in Pakistan. To make matters worse, Pakistani economy is broken and beyond repair. A populist budget has been presented that only confirms Pakistan's economic downfall.

It is the mindset folks. This nation has people at the top who have a very elitist and corrupt mindset. You can make mountains move. You can't change corrupt generals and politicians.

 

[wildlens]

The problem in South Asia is we think one man with charisma can change our lives. It is unlikely. The road to a better life is quite boring actually. It's about 2 or 3 generations of quiet work like how the east Asians have done. During this time there should be one or 2 areas where everyone pulls together whether you like it or not. Eg in Eastt Asia they gave up politics mostly , focused on hard work and made themselves into export economy. They gave up free speech or extremist religiosity in return for stability and perception that these places are safe thus luring in investment.
The key is getting capital investment. For that we need to demonstrate that the place is safe for money yo grow , not just be sucked up.
Are the people of Pak ready to put certain ideologies at the back for a few decades or about 60 70 years?

 

[FuturePAF]

Serious question, but do Pakistanis really want change? A “Naya Pakistan” as Imran Khan put it?

I don’t think the majority of people understand the growing pains of accomplishing that.

Decades of mismanagement and corruption have caused such decay that even if Imran Khan wanted to, nothing would be accomplished in our lifetimes. No great nations are built in 5 or 10 years.

This is one thing Imran Khan did not explain to the people. When he became PM, that should be have been his focus on his televised address….that “we should be prepared for hardship so our children live better lives”.

What he wanted was noble, but people honestly thought in 5 years everything would be great and we’d be Norway or Japan. I saw people tweeting pictures of Japan and saying “Peshawar 2023”…like wtf?

Nobody explained the growing pains that we would have to endure….for Pakistan to become a Japan, a Korea, a China, our generation will essentially have to sacrifice and pay deeply so that our future generations live better lives.

All great nations in this world today went through a period of sacrifice….you can read about it in every nations history….there was always that one group of people who said….”yes we will endure this pain so our children and grandchildren live better lives than us”.

Is this Pakistani generation really ready to do that? I don’t think so.

The question needs to be asked of a sub-set of Pakistanis; The Elite. Frankly, the majority think they will be asked to sacrifice and sacrifice and get nothing in return.

Are the Elite prepared to re-invest in Pakistan, to reap the long term benefit? That is the question that should be asked, IMHO.

140 Million feet acre of water and 45 million acres of farmland and one of the lowest crop productivity in the world.

Overconsumption of imported products leading to high inflation, which erodes their own savings and ROI on investments. Their children settling abroad, only returning sporadically.

The elite need to watch videos of the Pakistani industrialists of the 60s, and the dignity Pakistanis enjoyed when traveling abroad.

If the elites can keep the public well employed they will provide business opportunities for the world as well, and gain even more cache globally, akin to the titan’s of industry in China or India. Pakistan is set to reach a population of almost 400 million in a generation. Re-investing now into a country that has the demographics to grow out of this mess will make them very rich. While letting this mess continue will delegate them to remaining only able to buy apartments in major cities. They will be short changing themselves.

The elite have much to gain if they re-invest in Pakistan; noblesse oblige.

 

[my2cents]

Serious question, but do Pakistanis really want change? A “Naya Pakistan” as Imran Khan put it?

I don’t think the majority of people understand the growing pains of accomplishing that.

Decades of mismanagement and corruption have caused such decay that even if Imran Khan wanted to, nothing would be accomplished in our lifetimes. No great nations are built in 5 or 10 years.

This is one thing Imran Khan did not explain to the people. When he became PM, that should be have been his focus on his televised address….that “we should be prepared for hardship so our children live better lives”.

What he wanted was noble, but people honestly thought in 5 years everything would be great and we’d be Norway or Japan. I saw people tweeting pictures of Japan and saying “Peshawar 2023”…like wtf?

Nobody explained the growing pains that we would have to endure….for Pakistan to become a Japan, a Korea, a China, our generation will essentially have to sacrifice and pay deeply so that our future generations live better lives.

All great nations in this world today went through a period of sacrifice….you can read about it in every nations history….there was always that one group of people who said….”yes we will endure this pain so our children and grandchildren live better lives than us”.

Is this Pakistani generation really ready to do that? I don’t think so.

I feel your pain. Keep fighting and do not lose hope.

 

[FuturePAF]

The problem in South Asia is we think one man with charisma can change our lives. It is unlikely. The road to a better life is quite boring actually. It's about 2 or 3 generations of quiet work like how the east Asians have done. During this time there should be one or 2 areas where everyone pulls together whether you like it or not. Eg in Eastt Asia they gave up politics mostly , focused on hard work and made themselves into export economy. They gave up free speech or extremist religiosity in return for stability and perception that these places are safe thus luring in investment.
The key is getting capital investment. For that we need to demonstrate that the place is safe for money yo grow , not just be sucked up.
Are the people of Pak ready to put certain ideologies at the back for a few decades or about 60 70 years?

It’s not even about extreme ideology. The public doesn’t really get a vote. They flow into the paths open to them.

I don’t think people want a one man ruler for decades, but they want change. The current lot, as shown by the budget don’t want to bring about change. What IK offered was some change, not enough change IMHO, but still at the sped people were able to bear.

Frankly the elite have to decade if they are willing to bear the costs. The common man has to bear whatever is imposed on him. That’s not just in Pakistan, but anywhere in the world. It’s only that in many parts of the world, joining the elite is more meritocratic, so the general public accepts what comes down more.

Hopefully our lifetimes will be more than 5-10 years. Pakistan needs 20 years of political stability and economic development to become a prosperous country. (Erdogan has been ruling Turkey for 20+ years).

We can achieve a growth rate of 10% per year. In 20 years our economy will grow 8 times what it is now. From $350 billion to $2.8 trillion. Exports of $400 billion and $500 billion foreign reserves.

The people of Pakistan will only need to make major sacrifices if they have to fight a violent civil war to bring the rogue generals under control. Otherwise it will slow and steady progress over two decades.

The biggest sacrifice that is required is from the thug class that is getting a free ride at the cost of Pakistan's 250 million people. These are the generals, politicians, bureaucrats etc. They won't willingly sacrifice anything but they will have to be compelled.

There was a report to this exact point. A $2 Trillion economy by 2050. We have demographics on our side. And if we shape narrative correctly; a peaceful Pakistan, a liberal democracy, with a prosperous economy is good for the region and the world, we could rope in those global investors looking to India for growth.

Indians should be hoping for this change to take hold, it will be a multiplier effect for their economy, as trade will eventually resume and grow.

Therefore global investors will therefore see more opportunities in India and look to “buy in early” in Pakistan. This economic pressure will keeping all conflicts diplomatic between the two countries, by and large, akin to Greece and Turkey.

By the time India’s demographic dividend ends in about 20 years, Pakistan will have just reached its stride, having another generation to go before it plateaus in the 2060s.

Indeed, Pakistan needs a new narrative, to play the long game; the next 40 years (partner of both the US and China, as well as middleman to Central Asia). The old 1971-2021 Cold War/GWOT narrative has run out.

World Bank sees Pakistan's potential to be a $2 trillion economy | The Express Tribune

Lender says four influential groups have frustrated efforts to bring reforms in country

tribune.com.pk

 

[wildlens]

It’s not even about extreme ideology. The public doesn’t really get a vote. They flow into the paths open to them.

I don’t think people want a one man ruler for decades, but they want change. The current lot, as shown by the budget don’t want to bring about change. What IK offered was some change, not enough change IMHO, but still at the sped people were able to bear.

Frankly the elite have to decade if they are willing to bear the costs. The common man has to bear whatever is imposed on him. That’s not just in Pakistan, but anywhere in the world. It’s only that in many parts of the world, joining the elite is more meritocratic, so the general public accepts what comes down more.


There was a report to this exact point. A $2 Trillion economy by 2050. We have demographics on our side. And if we shape narrative correctly; a peaceful Pakistan, a liberal democracy, with a prosperous economy is good for the region and the world, we could rope in those global investors looking to India for growth.

Indians should be hoping for this change to take hold, it will be a multiplier effect for their economy, as trade will eventually resume and grow.

Therefore global investors will therefore see more opportunities in India and look to “buy in early” in Pakistan. This economic pressure will keeping all conflicts diplomatic between the two countries, by and large, akin to Greece and Turkey.

By the time India’s demographic dividend ends in about 20 years, Pakistan will have just reached its stride, having another generation to go before it plateaus in the 2060s.

Indeed, Pakistan needs a new narrative, to play the long game; the next 40 years (partner of both the US and China, as well as middleman to Central Asia). The old 1971-2021 Cold War/GWOT narrative has run out.

World Bank sees Pakistan's potential to be a $2 trillion economy | The Express Tribune

Lender says four influential groups have frustrated efforts to bring reforms in country

tribune.com.pk

I see your point..
I have 2 counter arguments.
Demographic dividend will occur only if backed by human dev that precedes it by 20 or 30 y. East Asia did it super ly, China quite well, India is a just pass on this. For Pak thus improvement in HDI had to begin yesterday. So while I wish the best that needs focus.
Unless Pak improves in good faith its not good for India, as the US got called out on naive assumptions about China.

 

[FuturePAF]

I see your point..
I have 2 counter arguments.
Demographic dividend will occur only if backed by human dev that precedes it by 20 or 30 y. East Asia did it super ly, China quite well, India is a just pass on this. For Pak thus improvement in HDI had to begin yesterday. So while I wish the best that needs focus.
Unless Pak improves in good faith its not good for India, as the US got called out on naive assumptions about China.

In the same way China knew what it had to get done, seeing the rise of the Asian tigers (particularly Hong Kong and Singapore), Pakistan too has seen India, and could probably make the needed reforms and investments if it completely reoriented society (which would be necessary to generate the taxes) towards the goal.

There is a lot of talent around the world that could be recruited, not just from the diaspora. Japan, as the first East Asian country to modernize in the modern sense, means the changes they had to go through need to be studied to get a sense of the depth of changes Pakistan will need to make.

Two books, that in my opinion, that are very important for the Pakistani decision makers to read is “MITI and the Japanese Miracle” and “The Modernizers; Overseas Students, Foreign Employees, and Meiji Japan”.

Soviet Russia also had a program of HDI development that led to world class scientists in a generation. That process should be studied as well. Our literacy rate is 56% due to the gross underinvestment. If we could reschedule our debts, raise tax revenues through property taxes, and invest in HDI, we could grow the middle class and labor productivity.

The Soviets were a mostly agrarian society that became a modern society in two generation depots the two world wars and the Great Depression and political limits preventing free trade with the west. I don’t advocate the Soviet model, just to study how the jump from a majority serf society to one that thought and was as educationally egalitarian as most of the world. Education in practical labor skills / a technical education would be very applicable in a country like Pakistan.

I agree that east Asia did it superly, China quite well, and India just passed. It all comes down to the level/extent of reforms IMHO. That is why Japan in particular needs to be studied. We are talking about nothing short of a cultural revolution that is needed to jump start Pakistan into the modern world economy.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp0443.pdf

 

[Tamerlane]

Another point I would like to make is that in any given country the people who make the country successful consist of no more than 1% of the population.

I’m not referring to the moneyed elite, although they’re also very important. I’m saying that if you make a list of all the top businessmen, the academics, the top scientists, the doctors, the engineers, the city planners, the entrepreneurs, etc. you will have one percent of the population contributing the vast bulk of economic production. They don’t have to be the richest people.

In Pakistan that would be 2.5 million people. But there are 10 million Pakistanis living abroad. Of those 2.5 million top Pakistanis I would say that the majority have left the country. Pakistan is running on less than half of its potential.

I can say with confidence that the Pakistanis I meet in Canada or America are the elite in educational attainment and business. If Pakistan wasn’t so messed up most of them would have been living in Pakistan and building the country.

That’s why getting as many of them back as possible has to be a critical part of any future strategy.

For now, the junta has declared war on them.

 

[ziaulislam]

He’s a troll….relax

Pretty sure majority of people in Lahore sectors where PMLN Won say exactly the same thing

This is apparently also the position of our generals

Now if only we can find another way to get CSF Rolling

My hopes are on Iran

 

[ThunderCat]

People continuing to ignore overpopulation and what's causing it. Probably not.

 

[Neelo]

Pretty sure majority of people in Lahore sectors where PMLN Won say exactly the same thing

This is apparently also the position of our generals

Now if only we can find another way to get CSF Rolling

My hopes are on Iran

Take your pills.

 

[PradoTLC]

When I see people on the forum supporting the Taliban and saying "they kicked USA,well done"

it is simple.. when US invaded Afghanistan in 2001 it was seen as the hero... over the years with a combination of bad intentions, support for a shithole NA lead gov it become the villian

Taliban today is making positive moves such ending crime and drug production hence seen now as the "hero"


things change so do people's perspectives.

There. That's the mentality.

that is being a retard

 

[xyxmt]

When I see people on the forum supporting the Taliban and saying "they kicked USA,well done"

When some people here get angry and demand bans when I or some Turk or some other person mentions Pakistani immigrant crimes in Greece,Turkey or other countries in Europe,but at the same time they go like "oh it's true,we are animals,we'll never go forward with that mentality",every time there's a thread about a crime inside Pakistan

When some people are stuck blaming other Muslims and their fellow Pakistanis of being "slaves of America"

while many others living in Western countries,want a mullah regime in Pakistan...

When they vote for the same family for decades...

some enthusiastically saying they should "assist Turkey against Greece/Cyprus/Armenia/Serbia/Russia" and generally wars that are completely irrelevant to them,just because "Ertugrul" and "Islam".

some blaming their Army for the corruption of the officers,others not blaming the PML-N government...

I know what you are saying here

some people like Biryani while others like pulao, some like chicken some like beef while majority prefer goats.
some like English movies and some like Indian.
This is called society, not everyone agrees on same dish and that why we have different restaurants selling different food.

unless one day a chef comes out with gun and forces every restaurant to sell pulao only at gun point you will not blame restaurant for making pulao only. So stop making excuses for Army.

The only regret we should have is supporting this corrupt army for last 70 years. But every goat has her day and their day is here. Now everyman in khaki uniform when goes out in public he will always think how much hate people have in their eyes for them.