Democracy in China? It's in the eye of the beholder.

[TaiShang]

Politically, the US is closer to neo-fascism, which is an elevated form of capitalist oligarchy. This election cycle in the US revealed the once successfully concealed aspects of the US political culture and tradition: Nepotism, corruption in media and finance, factionalism, in-fighting at every level of the government have been partially laid bare.

This model is now the most abhorred in China, along with the Indian historical negative example of inefficient, static, and corrupt political culture.

That's why political consciousness of the world situation is important. Before, only those Greater China citizens that had a chance to visit the US would come to appreciate China's own historical model. I am US educated and I became critical of the US regime (domestic and foreign) only after I studied and got to know the very details of their society and political culture.

But, the latest US election cycle has taken off the remaining governance clothes on the Lady Liberty and, factionalist US media, in their abject hatred of each other (liberal media vs. conservative media), keep revealing more of the once-hidden, corrupt to the core, US political culture. Now, even the regular citizens on the street have a certain realistic and informed idea of the US political culture. Trump will create further atrophy in it.

Nobody in their sane mind would appreciate, or be even slightly inspired by, such a corrupt model that is being unraveled before our very eyes.

The world situation has given lots of practical lessons, not just via US elections, but also via the Arab Spring.

The Middle East situation right now, by just looking at Turkey, provides an excellent historical lab to study and be more appreciative of our own historically-informed governance model. Turkey's steady radicalization through extreme religiosity and sectarianism, and mingling of religion with domestic and foreign policy offers historical lessons by simply analyzing the situation they are in right now.

The world is a lab, if you know where to look at and how to analyze it.

When it comes to scientific pragmatism, experimentation, and eclecticism, no body in this entire planet can rival China's government.

 

[beijingwalker]

the CCP itself is vastly different than 20 years ago, 30 years ago and 50 years ago. to most people it seems China only has one party ---'the divine CCP'. but to us, we know there are many fractions within the part, their ideologies are too wide in order to consider them all from a party, its like Labour from Tory, Democrats from Republic```````
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That's every true , there is a lot of struggle, competition and check and balance with the CPC, CPC is just a name to hold the country together and united.

 

[gambit]

Which is why i said our dear Desertfalcon is clueless on what he is talking about when he said people who enjoy economic freedom would eventually want more political freedom.

No, it is YOU who are clueless.

With each right and freedom you give someone, it is inevitable that he will wonder if there are more and how can he get more. And if he finds out you are the reasons why he cannot have more...

The first thing anyone want is ease of physical being. If I have a roof over my head, that is ease of physical being because now I have some protection from nature. If I have a microwave oven, now I can boil water for my tea quicker than I could with using a kettle or a pot.

It is human nature to first secure physical well being. But once the person feels he has all the physical creature comforts he want, his thoughts will wander into the political realm. He will question as to why every creature comfort he has must come from you. Between him and you lies the minefield of politics.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

No, it is YOU who are clueless.

With each right and freedom you give someone, it is inevitable that he will wonder if there are more and how can he get more. And if he finds out you are the reasons why he cannot have more...

The first thing anyone want is ease of physical being. If I have a roof over my head, that is ease of physical being because now I have some protection from nature. If I have a microwave oven, now I can boil water for my tea quicker than I could with using a kettle or a pot.

It is human nature to first secure physical well being. But once the person feels he has all the physical creature comforts he want, his thoughts will wander into the political realm. He will question as to why every creature comfort he has must come from you. Between him and you lies the minefield of politics.

ya so says YOU.

hahahaha

 

[Dungeness]

China, like most countries, has it's unique characteristics, but despite the OP, China's ever growing middle class, will eventually want political freedom just as they have embraced economic freedom. It's all but inevitable, just as it was in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Chile, Colombia, etc. Countries that adopt market economics develop populations who will eventually demand more political freedom.

This has been repeated by every John and Joe in the West for the last 20-30 years with no light in horizon, now even the inventor of "the end of history" theory is second-guessing his own conclusion. Who knows China may actually invent something like nothing in the history of mankind.

Chinese middle class are busy enjoying their new found economic freedom, and are not ready to part with all their wealth, which for certain will be the case in any "xyz revolution". As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Besides, the state of affair of all the countries you listed are not that attractive to Chinese anyway.

 

[Brainsucker]

No, it is YOU who are clueless.

With each right and freedom you give someone, it is inevitable that he will wonder if there are more and how can he get more. And if he finds out you are the reasons why he cannot have more...

The first thing anyone want is ease of physical being. If I have a roof over my head, that is ease of physical being because now I have some protection from nature. If I have a microwave oven, now I can boil water for my tea quicker than I could with using a kettle or a pot.

It is human nature to first secure physical well being. But once the person feels he has all the physical creature comforts he want, his thoughts will wander into the political realm. He will question as to why every creature comfort he has must come from you. Between him and you lies the minefield of politics.

I agree with the bold part. Yes, with each right and freedom you give someone, he'll wonder if there are more and how can he get more. The problem is, how far that he wants to, and how far that we allowed him to get. Even in America, which is popular with their freedom, there's still limitation. Nobody can get all free, because it means anarchy. The key here is how to balance restriction and freedom.

I think, what Chinese need is not a free election system. But more of good and clean government. Democracy is not only about we choose a new popular president, like Trump, or Obama, or Bush. But more about how the people can ensure that the government doesn't betray the people's trust. So it's more of a strong and independent law enforcement and a good government watcher that the Chinese need. This way, no corrupt president or prime minister can use their power to steal the people money and do whatever they want to enrich themselves.

Does PRC has them already? I doubt it.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

I agree with the bold part. Yes, with each right and freedom you give someone, he'll wonder if there are more and how can he get more. The problem is, how far that he wants to, and how far that we allowed him to get. Even in America, which is popular with their freedom, there's still limitation. Nobody can get all free, because it means anarchy. The key here is how to balance restriction and freedom.

I think, what Chinese need is not a free election system. But more of good and clean government. Democracy is not only about we choose a new popular president, like Trump, or Obama, or Bush. But more about how the people can ensure that the government doesn't betray the people's trust. So it's more of a strong and independent law enforcement and a good government watcher that the Chinese need. This way, no corrupt president or prime minister can use their power to steal the people money and do whatever they want to enrich themselves.

Does PRC has them already? I doubt it.

this post made me laughed even harder then gamibit's post.

u r confusing democracy with corruption. u r making it sound like democracy = corruption-free, which we all know is false and of which no country n this world is free of, regardless of they they r democratic or not.

In fact, some of the world's most corrupt countries are also some of the world's largest democracies in South and Southeast asia.

thanks i had a good one though.

 

[gambit]

I agree with the bold part. Yes, with each right and freedom you give someone, he'll wonder if there are more and how can he get more. The problem is, how far that he wants to, and how far that we allowed him to get. Even in America, which is popular with their freedom, there's still limitation. Nobody can get all free, because it means anarchy. The key here is how to balance restriction and freedom.

The issue contains two parts.

The first is to get as many freedoms and rights as I can.

The second is to see how far I can go FOR EACH OF THE FREEDOMS AND RIGHTS accumulated.

This is where most people misunderstood how Americans views freedoms and rights. Note the idiocy in post 53.

We do not believe that our freedoms and rights are unlimited IN EXECUTION. That recognition have nothing to do with the government. Most people, Americans and non, instinctively know that the moment I come into contact with another person, self restraints comes into play and I voluntarily put limits on my freedoms and rights without governmental coercion. It is only when the community gets larger and larger is when the formalization of those personal self restraints into laws occurs.

 

[Brainsucker]

this post made me laughed even harder then gamibit's post.

u r confusing democracy with corruption. u r making it sound like democracy = corruption-free, which we all know is false and of which no country n this world is free of, regardless of they they r democratic or not.

In fact, some of the world's most corrupt countries are also some of the world's largest democracies in South and Southeast asia.

thanks i had a good one though.

True. There's still a lot of corruption even in democracy countries. But at least they separate the legislative, judicative and executive parties. So they can watch to each others. It's not a perfect system. But at least a bit better than the other one. Now tell me, before Xi become president, isn't the law enforcement in China work under the provincial governments? And see it yourself, how many corruptors that you have produce? Even now, your judicative system is still under the government authority. They are not independent.

A good government, regardless they are communist, democracy, etc, need a good law enforcement system. And a good law enforcement system is an independent law enforcement system that capable to punish everyone; even if the culprit is the president of your country. This system can prevent a thief to steal your money. Specially thieves who have authority in your government.

And thankfully, democracy has this system. Of course, even a good system need a good execution. That's why you still can have corruptor in democracy countries.

To be honest, I don't care if Xin Jin Ping the third raise to power in the future,replacing his grand father as the president of PRC. Or if they choose to do dynastic system in China, like in North Korea. But at the end, good government is always about the government that law is work as intended. Not a law that can be used as a tool for the ruler to do his personal bidding.

 

[beijingwalker]

US government represents big corporations, that's a known fact by almost everyone. No system is perfect and that's why we need to try new models and that's what China has been doing in the past 3 decades. US basically tried nothing, is very stubborn on changing anything.

Jimmy Carter: The U.S. Is an “Oligarchy With Unlimited Political Bribery”
https://theintercept.com/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/

 

[ahojunk]

China has 7 thousand years of history.

Whatever political system China has, it will slowly but surely revert back to its meritocratic and dynastic system imbued with Confucianism and Daoism. That's why things like education and filial piety matters for the Chinese. Their political system in 1949 in very different to that of 2016. It has evolved.

No matter how hard the Chinese may try, they will not be able to move away from this political system. This is China's own political system, it's in their DNA.

By the way, the word communism in CCP is a misnomer, just like the word labor in Labor Party of Australia. Also, the Liberal Party of Australia is the most conservative political party in Oz. Enough said.

 

[TISSOT]

Indians mistake freedom for talking about speaking ,we Chinese think freedom being more than that. Freedom is you have more means and more time for yourself , your family and do things you like to do without worrying your livelihood, one can never feel free if their daily struggle is the next meal. In this case, a person without economic means can never be free ,cause they are bonded with the heaviest shackles known to the humanity. What China is doing is to target the very essence of human freedom so that people can be happy and content. In a sense , Africa and India are the places where people enjoy least freedom cause people are tied down by their very existence.

The only Real freedom in the world is the freedom to make mistakes.

Everyone have to do the "right thing" to survive, we do not get to choose that. That choice is made for us. The only real freedom is the freedom to do the "wrong thing".

That does not necessarily bring "happiness" but it certainly brings "satisfaction" and more importantly it helps people and society "evolve".

That is what democracies thrive on, Mistakes and the freedom of the people to make them, learn from the and then evolve from them.

What India needs is more good governance. Not more democracy. - Lee Kuan Yew

Here's an ancient Chinese proverb.

Only when a person is properly fed and clothed, will he understand what is shame and what is honor.

Maybe that chinese proverb is applicable in a barbaric and uncivilized society. But in a civilized and ancient society like India, even the person who is not fed or clothed property knows what shame and honor is.

Good governance and democracy usually go hand in hand. Then there is the formative stage, the stage where you make mistakes, the stage where you learn from your mistake and then the stage where you evolve into a mature democracy with a mature governance system.

Short cuts don't work.

 

[beijingwalker]

The only Real freedom in the world is the freedom to make mistakes.
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I believe the basic freedom is the rights for food, clean water, education, medicare, shelter...only after those needs are secured will you start to think about freedom in a deeper sense, that's why China is evolving gradually year after year without major turbulence.

 

[TISSOT]

I believe the basic freedom is the rights for food, clean water, education, medicare, shelter...only after those needs are secured will you start to think about freedom in a deeper sense, that's why China is evolving gradually year after year without major turbulence.

You are free to have your beliefs. That is a freedom too.

However there is no evolution without turbulence. That is the law of nature and there is no changing that. Without evolution there is only stagnation and eventual decay and death.

Finally animals are never secure, yet they desire freedom over water, food or shelter.

 

[sweetgrape]

The only Real freedom in the world is the freedom to make mistakes.

Everyone have to do the "right thing" to survive, we do not get to choose that. That choice is made for us. The only real freedom is the freedom to do the "wrong thing".

That does not necessarily bring "happiness" but it certainly brings "satisfaction" and more importantly it helps people and society "evolve".

That is what democracies thrive on, Mistakes and the freedom of the people to make them, learn from the and then evolve from them.

I am interested in what's the "mistake" you mentioned here? and it is privilege in democracy only?