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Defence alert over Pakistan's air space violation

Im still not sure what the IA shot down..
I checked with somebody who should know this detail.. he says all the falco's are accounted for..
Is the PAF flying "black" falco's now??

I am not sure what you mean by 'black'. Are you referring to the color(but the debris is not black) or the secrecy?
If secrecy, then let me ask you this: Is there any information about how many UAV's are owned and operated by Pakistan's various armed forces? I am sure that no country, incl. India , the US and the Pakistan will be upfront about these numbers.

So how to account for losses?

Let me also give the old example of the RJAF Starfighters. Has PAF officially acknowlegded the loss of at least one RJAF loaner? If it has, I would be very surprised(and wrong:) ). The first Pakistani acknowledgement came by way of Kaiser Tufail, right? Again, please correct me if I am missing something in this paragraph.

@Areesh:
Read the forum link you sent again. Members are saying that it is defi. possible that this is a Pakistani UAV.
Moral: Read before post! Might defeat own arguments!!!
Oh, and one more thing that I learned thanks to WJ's nice link to Vayu-sena:
After shooting the UAV with a Sidewinder AIM-9L, the debris was painted in IAF colors(!!!)
The Indian Air Force does not paint roundels on its UAVs!! So that is tampering of the evidence, wouldn't you say? Inadmissible in any court of law, I might add.

ANyway Areesh, my last request is to actually post some facts , photos, anything here. I only see your loyalty to certain other members. But sometimes its good to see some original stuff too, I mean what else is the difference between man and man's best friend?
 
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@Areesh:
Read the forum link you sent again. Members are saying that it is defi. possible that this is a Pakistani UAV.
Moral: Read before post! Might defeat own arguments!!!

Read this genius...

Well, i have seen almost all drones and UAVs of Pakistan (Pak Army n PAF) and this is none of our UAVs. The reason is that non of em has such landing gear assemblies ( red circled ). So, it may be some UAV but it not ours.

Alleged UAV shot down.

Well a face palm would have been enough for your post. But any ways I might not mind answering idiots once in a while. :)
 
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Read this genius...



Alleged UAV shot down.

Well a face palm would have been enough for your post. But any ways I might not mind answering idiots once in a while. :)

Why do you constantly feel the need to troll? Do you honestly think the PAF is oh so superior ? Lossess have been incurred on both sides....only a moron would go into denial mode...
 
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Why do you constantly feel the need to troll? Do you honestly think the PAF is oh so superior ? Lossess have been incurred on both sides....only a moron would go into denial mode...

Troll??? I am only questioning the credibility of IA's super dooper achievement. Any problem with that???

I won't call you john doe's best friend any ways.;)
 
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Olive green color?
Must be the Army Aviation Mushaks, there are airstrips in the area and AJK is all very close to the LOC.
Not necessarily a SIGINT operation since the aircraft in question are not suitable for it, could be the weather resulting in a different flight path or inexperience of a new pilot.
 
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@john..
No need to get all hyped up..
But yes.. the falco's are all accounted for.. serialized and everything else. Since these are built under license.. and on record.
What are you bringing in the RJAF 104 for?? that was a jet on loan.. and not acknowledged?.. its there in the PAF's official history.. difference being its not listed as a kill.
Need I remind you of the IAF's spurious claims regarding PAF's Mirages being shot down in 71?.. I dont think that needs to be bought up and this turned into a flame war.
In this case.. I checked for the falco's.. which apart from a single mishap in KP.. all are accounted for.
So if the incident did occur.. it is not the Selex Falco which was bought down..that is all..
I am prepared to listen to arguments and a reasonable conclusion can be reached.. as we did on the last air battle thread.
So.. If its not the Falco.. what other possibilities does that leave us?
The PAF operates one other platform which is the one made by IDS..
Both of them are operated by a single joint command..
And since the word from this command is that NO UAV has been lost..
Its does not belong to the PAF..
So.. Then it boils down to the PA..or another establishment
Till the wreckage is displayed.. we cannot ascertain what was shot down.
 
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So.. Then it boils down to the PA..or another establishment
Till the wreckage is displayed.. we cannot ascertain what was shot down.

Well Santro John Doe did gave this link in which the wreckage of the alleged Pakistani UAV is shown by IA.

Alleged UAV shot down

The fact is that this topic was discussed earlier too. And response from one Pakistani member was:

Well, i have seen almost all drones and UAVs of Pakistan (Pak Army n PAF) and this is none of our UAVs. The reason is that non of em has such landing gear assemblies ( red circled ). So, it may be some UAV but it not ours.

So, the question arisies that why indians gave this news. Actually, we shot down indian UAV by F-16. After that, they made it a matter of their pride to shoot one of ours. As they were unable to do so (we bacame careful), they came up with this story. Another argument to support this is that 400m is a very samll distance. If there army was there, so was ours. And as this small mutual distance, a fire should have resulted in a responce from our side (considering tensions at that time).

Alleged UAV shot down.

So do you agree with that member or can you recognize any PA UAV from this wreckage. Good to know that no PAF UAV was shot down. Let's examine PA. Thanks.
 
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that looks like a vertical stab to me where the hand is..
So the closest one I can think of is the
falco.gif

But since the one posted by john has an angle at the rear of the fin.. so it isnt the falco
 
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@Santro:
Thanks for the reply. I am not sure where to look for the official losses of the PAF in 1971, hence I was not too confident about whether PAF has publicly acknowledged the use, let alone the loss of the RJAF jet.
ANyway back to topic. You are aware of the use of the Falco and the domestic UAV, right. Assuming that your source is accurate about the falco not being lost, I wonder why the IA labeled this UAV 'Italian'.
If they are wrong about it being Italian, then what are the other possibilities? Amazingly , I found the answer right here in defence.pk answered by Taimikhan! I quote:
"These are basically the ASN series of Chinese UAV being used by PA.
ASN-105 Alfa and ASN-206 kind of UAVs."

More about the ASN 105:
ASN-104/105 Unmanned Reconnaissance Aerial Vehicle - SinoDefence.com

Also, I was amazed to see the number of domestic UAV developments in Pakistan. I think the private sector is leading the way here. Anyway, couldn't it be one of these?
 
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Ok. Thanks Santro for your response. As you said PAF didn't lost any UAV. And till now PA also didn't lost any UAV. So my claim that it was a pathetic attempt by some one in Bharati military who created this story of shooting down Pakistani UAV to save the face of "mighty" Indian military. A story indeed created to satisfy fan boys like John Doe who are now having problem with the news which they themselves posted with a lot of pride. Ah Fan boys. I pity them.;)
 
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@ John Doe

Ah... The disgust. John Doe can you feel it in your post. I hope you do.

I wonder why the IA labeled this UAV 'Italian'.

Well may be some problem with the script. It wasn't written with the perfection it needed. May be next time they might come forward with something better.

If they are wrong about it being Italian, then what are the other possibilities?

Are you having problem in believing the news which you yourself posted. What a shame... Looks like your lecture on modus operandi back fired for you. :D

Amazingly , I found the answer right here in defence.pk answered by Taimikhan! I quote:

What is so amazing in that... He just named the chinese UAV's which PA uses. Did he said any where that these UAV's were shot down by IA. Or the alleged Paksitani UAV shot down in this incident is one of these Chinese UAV's. Obviously no. Looks like our friend is trying to give some spin to his own posted news. I think I can call it as an epic fail.

Also, I was amazed to see the number of domestic UAV developments in Pakistan. I think the private sector is leading the way here. Anyway, couldn't it be one of these?

It could be anything. It could be Russian, American, French, German or even some alien UAV. But doesn't change the fact that you are trying to spin the story and finding it difficult to prove the "news" which you posted out of fanboyism.

On a serious note I would still accept your claim if you give us some solid undeniable proof about this alleged "achievement". I even don't ask you to give proof for other two UAV's which IA claimed to shot down. Just give me the proof about this specific UAV which as claimed by IA is of Italian origin by the way.
 
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@Areesh:

You will notice the difference in my style of writing with you and your kind vs. how I write to others. Your posts should make it clear to anyone why I treat you like 'Man's best friend' .

See how other intelligent members of this forum write, if you don't want to learn from me. An intelligent man is one who considers all possibilities and does not dismiss a different thought process.

I don't know if you are a man or not, yet I know enough to not call you 'intelligent'.

The proof that you keep asking for is right there, Mr.Helen Keller! Look at the silly photo and read the article!!!

You are reading from what Santro and I are discussing, and like grown-ups we are discussing various possibilities. So far, there is nothing to suggest that this debris does not belong to a Pakistani UAV. If the IA says its is Italian, I'm happy to believe them, since there is no evidence to the contrary.

You are not worth anybody's time, so unless you outdo your usual antics, I'll bid you adieu.
BTW, check this out from another discussion forum, where they acknowledge this UAV being Pakistani and that ISPR acknowledged this loss:

"
02-07-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Uzair
India is now showing some wreakage of a Pakistani UAV they claimed they shot down. It's hard to say, it could well be an Indian UAV they are showing.

India Claims to Have Shot Down Spy Plane (AP Video)

ISPR has said a Pk UAV was lost, so I think it is a Pakistani UAV.
Shoaib
02-08-2003, 06:11 AM
I agree with Noman, most probably a pakistani UAV, what I would like to know is what kind of bird this one was.

As have been said about the Indian UAV shot down, this could be just for checking the speed and efficiency of the IA ... do we know how they claim to have shot it down? "
 
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@Areesh:

You will notice the difference in my style of writing with you and your kind vs. how I write to others. Your posts should make it clear to anyone why I treat you like 'Man's best friend' .

Does it include Riaz Mohammad also. I hope not. :D

See how other intelligent members of this forum write, if you don't want to learn from me. An intelligent man is one who considers all possibilities and does not dismiss a different thought process.

Well the intelligent here doesn't know how to spin the story. Disgust indeed.

I don't know if you are a man or not, yet I know enough to not call you 'intelligent'.

I would have felt embarrassed if you would have called me intelligent. Seriously...

The proof that you keep asking for is right there, Mr.Helen Keller! Look at the silly photo and read the article!!!

That article!!!Still you believe their is anything left in that article to be consider as a proof. What a joke.

So far, there is nothing to suggest that this debris does not belong to a Pakistani UAV.

It also doesn't suggest that it was Pakistani... ;)

If the IA says its is Italian, I'm happy to believe them, since there is no evidence to the contrary.

But still you don't believe them. Oh you want to consider all the possibilities.... But still you belive. OK. I admit I am talking to a confused individual here. This is where the problem lies. Your immaturity and confused personality.


You are not worth anybody's time, so unless you outdo your usual antics, I'll bid you adieu.

Huh.... Come on John you didn't need to said this. You also know how much worth you have in front of me.

BTW, check this out from another discussion forum, where they acknowledge this UAV being Pakistani and that ISPR acknowledged this loss:

Well most of them also believed the same which I believe. It was just a one liner by a "Pakistani" that ISPR admitted a Pakistani UAV loss. Where they admitted it is yet to be find by John Doe with his Google searching talent. No link buddy. Please provide us the news article where ISPR admitted this loss. As I said undeniable proof not some junk which you are very fond of sharing with us.

OK. As I said earlier. If you provide me with any strong, solid and undeniable proof I would not only accept your claim but I would also congratulate on this "achievement". So from now I might not respond to your irrelevant Blah Blah Blah except some good proof from your side.

:)
 
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You guys don't need to stress over a UAV being shot down.

I am interested more in the fact that how was it shot down. Like SAM, AA Guns or MANpads.

Maybe someone was playing with his R/C toy too near the border......hmmph
 
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I'll answer all the ladies questions:-) starting with:

@The President of the ART and PAINTING Fanclub:
Sorry to rain on your parade everywhere,
It's more a case of you have acquired the taste of egg in your face.
I suffer from the exact opposite disease as you and your club members. I specifically suffer from the "IHATELIARS Syndrome". It's incurable, I'm afraid, I will always be allergic to lies:-(
Since your own knowledge extends from Indian movies to Rubik cubes, then I guess honesty must be your middle name.

Now your posts; so many lies
Reflection indeed must be gruesome for you to comprehend
where to begin?
How about your worth in credibility.
So which is the better feat: Using 8 Modern jets to shoot down a slow lumbering drone, or shooting it down by rifle by a sentry? I would go with the latter, despite your excuses about it being too dark to see:-)
I deliberately posted the Indian link so your little heart goes pitter patter, but guess what, old habits die hard, since even the article mentions the shoot down time but hey desperate Doe, as they say, any port in a storm. And has it even crossed your mind, how could the Indians know, which and how many aircrafts were scrambled and for what purpose. As for your choice of method, the UAVs, don't follow any dedicated terrain hence you can't have soldiers standing at every brick and motor pointing towards the sky.
Just a passing thought:

If UAV stands for Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, then please note the following:
RAF pilots in WW2 shot, toppled and rammed V-1 and V-2's.

I actually found you a photo, NOT a painting!
Proof if it were needed, how dense you actually are, the likes of V-1s were commonly known as a flying bomb, a first generation SSM, unlike a UAV, it didn't loiter around and entered an Island of country from almost one direction, but I guess your uncle google will only inform you as little as you are able to understand, now, the other cheek please.


By the way, thanks for sending me the Vayu Sena article! Since you are using it as evidence, let me point out that 2 (TWO) UAV's entered deep into Pak territory, so where's the other one
I always knew your cherry picking habits hence the Vaya Sena article to feast your vision, sadly they mentioned two UAVs for the fan club, but I guess they forgot the ending, since in reality it must have been just one.
Also I hope you read how many PAF jets it takes to shoot one(1) UAV: Answer: EIGHT (8)!!!!!
Wow, this can be India's strategy right there to check PAF response times and strategies, no?
Albeit the figures seem highly exaggerated but then again, PAF would make sure, any intruder comes with a one way ticket. If the UAV hadn't been shot down, the likes of you could have mischiefed their souls.
BTW,I have commissioned my 1st std. niece to paint a picture of the UAV entering your airspace, will certainly post it here soon:-) She claims to be a member of the American Society of Aviation Artists too! Though they have not heard of her, why shouldn't I make this claim too? Who can find out, unless they go to the ASAA website.....
In the name of S M A Hussaini, lets move on

@John Doe Certain items in your category are usually regarded as past their shelf life or sell by date, when ever i think you couldn't decline further, you sink even lower in desperation to retrieve your wounded ego, as I said, so far, you have taken shelter in some Bollywood movie, made a pathetic attempt with a Cubist-Revisionist painting, dragged a RJAF aircraft into a non related article, called a missile a UAV, and above all refered to a member with a disgusting term, where as you dearly love to see, every thread turned into a Kolkota street, here is a suggestion, ask your dear Niece to paint you a couple of brain cells, even if you can't prove a worthy opponent, at least you will have something to boast about.
 
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