Debunking India's Military supremacy claims

[BetterPakistan]

Ho

Pakistan will never ever dare to use a nuke in a battlefield.

and that modi will never dare to confront Pakistan. We won't need a nuke to dismantle your forces, few chapatis will be enough

 

[Praise Kek]

and that modi will never dare to confront Pakistan. We won't need a nuke to dismantle your forces, few chapatis will be enough

Your forces can be dismantled with just some dry daal & melted snow.

 

[Safriz]

Your forces can be dismantled with just some dry daal & melted snow.

I opened this thread for technical discussion where members can come up with technical arguments against my posts.
But in true Indian style all you are doing in launched ad hominem attacks. Don't waste bandwidth and go elsewhere.

 

[Praise Kek]

PAF is so tiny that it has only 156 4th gen fighters.
Whereas IAF has 342 4th gen fighters

 

[BetterPakistan]

Your forces can be dismantled with just some dry daal & melted snow.

Really? than why that poor soldier is being beaten by his senior officers? Such crap military can't win wars. A few months back when Pakistan and India was going to standoff in back of uri attack, 60-70k indian soldiers applied for holidays so that they don't participate in the so called war, is this the military you are discussing about? Wake up kiddos, the world is not that much simple like what is being aired on indian news channels.

I remember Pakistan-India standoff in 2002 when both countries just stood-off but didn't went to war and in that standoff India lost 789–1,874 soldiers which is considered non-combat deaths. You can browse this right here :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_India–Pakistan_standoff

PAF is so tiny that it has only 156 4th gen fighters.
Whereas IAF has 342 4th gen fighters

and this tiny PAF destroyed 60-75 indian aircrafts while losing only 20 in 1965 war.
In 1971 war, this tiny PAF destroyed 130 indian aircrafts while losing 42 aircrafts.

 

[Praise Kek]

Really? than why that poor soldier is being beaten by his senior officers? Such crap military can't win wars. A few months back when Pakistan and India was going to standoff in back of uri attack, 60-70k indian soldiers applied for holidays so that they don't participate in the so called war, is this the military you are discussing about? Wake up kiddos, the world is not that much simple like what is being aired on indian news channels.

I remember Pakistan-India standoff in 2002 when both countries just stood-off but didn't went to war and in that standoff India lost 789–1,874 soldiers which is considered non-combat deaths. You can browse this right here :-

Fail.
No Indian soldier applied for leaves, that was just fake news by Pakistan media.

Pakistan military is so rag that they attack own frigates and try to assassinate own chief & President.

247 Pakistani soldiers were captured by a band of tribals in FATA.

 

[BetterPakistan]

Fail.
No Indian soldier applied for leaves, that was just fake news by Pakistan media.

Pakistan military is so rag that they attack own frigates and try to assassinate own chief & President.

247 Pakistani soldiers were captured by a band of tribals in FATA.

What? I mean, seriously?

This is really amusing for me.

Here you go kid. It was RSS who tried to assassinate Indian army chief as claimed by times of India.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...cord-in-army-in-1950/articleshow/56845089.cms

"247 Pakistani soldiers were captured by a band of tribals in FATA"
Prove the above statement.

Nobody trusts your blind lies, I am presenting proofs while you are blindly saying everything. Kid go ahead and prove it or deal with the reality in mature way.

You are new here and viewing your profile tells me that you are filled with bunch of indian newspapers crap but don't you worry PDF will correct you anytime you want.

 

[Mrc]

PAF is so tiny that it has only 156 4th gen fighters.
Whereas IAF has 342 4th gen fighters

342 is also tiny by international standards

 

[Praise Kek]

What? I mean, seriously?

This is really amusing for me.

Here you go kid. It was RSS who tried to assassinate Indian army chief as claimed by times of India.


"247 Pakistani soldiers were captured by a band of tribals in FATA"
Prove the above statement.

Nobody trusts your blind lies, I am presenting proofs while you are blindly saying everything. Kid go ahead and prove it or deal with the reality in mature way.

You are new here and viewing your profile tells me that you are filled with bunch of indian newspapers crap but don't you worry PDF will correct you anytime you want.

It has been debunked son of Cariappa himself:

The assassination attempt report too is preposterous, Air Marshal (retd) Nanda Cariappa, General Cariappa's son, told Outlook magazine.

"I think it is implausible, I have never heard about it, quite honestly, and nobody I know has ever heard about it. In 1950, one year into being the commander in chief, he was in good terms with the politicians. I can’t think of anybody who would want to bump him off," said Air Marshal (retd) Nanda, who retired from the IAF 20 years ago.

As for 247 Pakistani soldiers captured:

Pakistani Militants Hold Army Troops Hostage
By ISMAIL KHAN and CARLOTTA GALL
SEPTEMBER 4, 2007
PESHAWAR, Pakistan , Sept. 3 — Close to 300 Pakistani soldiers and officers have been held captive for four days after they were seized by pro- Taliban militants in a tribal region near the Afghan border without a shot being fired, government officials said Monday.
It was the first time government officials acknowledged that so many men had been captured and that they were being held hostage. The government has asked tribal elders to intercede to seek the release of the soldiers, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the embarrassment the capture has caused the government.
The militants have demanded that the military withdraw from the restive area of South Waziristan and release 15 of their men from government custody.
The capture of the soldiers on Thursday was a serious setback for the Pakistani military in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. It demonstrated the confidence of the militants in South Waziristan, one of seven Pakistani tribal regions that has been described as a virtual Taliban state, where the government has so little control that the military can move only with the consent of the local militants.
Foreign fighters are also known to live and operate in South Waziristan, but the captors of the soldiers seem to be Pakistanis who are sympathetic to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

342 is also tiny by international standards

342 is also tiny by international standards

Nope it will be fifth largest inventory in the world.

 

[Mrc]

Nope it will be fifth largest inventory in the world.

Compare it with first... which is 7000 plus gen 4 .. 300 plus gen 5... shupa pawa

 

[BetterPakistan]

It has been debunked son of Cariappa himself:

really? than why 6 soldiers were punished to hang??

As for 247 Pakistani soldiers captured:

captured, only for 4 days and no one of them was killed. This happened in 2007 when Pakistan hasn't launched offensive in FATA because Pakistan had tried to dialogue with them because they were also Pakistanis but that dialogue failed and after that Pakistan launched an offensive on them in 2014 under General Raheel Sharif and till now 9000 terrorists have been killed there by Pakistan Military and 450 were hanged and 96% of north waziristan was cleared and was under control of Pakistan Army (statistics till november 2016). In 2 years Pakistan military the most battle hardened force dismantled all those terrorists and its been 70 years "Freedom Fighters/Hizb-ul-Mujahideen" whom you call terrorists and which they are not, are still alive and India 0.7 million soldiers haven't eliminated them yet and won't ever eliminate them. Uri attack in which 4 attackers killed 19 of your soldiers proves your military 70 years of experience in Jammu & Kashmir.

 

[Praise Kek]

really? than why 6 soldiers were punished to hang??



captured, only for 4 days and no one of them was killed. This happened in 2007 when Pakistan hasn't launched offensive in FATA because Pakistan had tried to dialogue with them because they were also Pakistanis but that dialogue failed and after that Pakistan launched an offensive on them in 2014 under General Raheel Sharif and till now 9000 terrorists have been killed there by Pakistan Military and 450 were hanged and 96% of north waziristan was cleared and was under control of Pakistan Army (statistics till november 2016). In 2 years Pakistan military the most battle hardened force dismantled all those terrorists and its been 70 years "Freedom Fighters/Hizb-ul-Mujahideen" whom you call terrorists and which they are not, are still alive and India 0.7 million soldiers haven't eliminated them yet and won't ever eliminate them. Uri attack in which 4 attackers killed 19 of your soldiers proves your military 70 years of experience in Jammu & Kashmir.

No one was hanged.


the fact that Pakistani soldiers were captured by tribals shows how weak and undisciplined they and they were in captivity for several months not four days.

In PAF Badaber six TTP Soldiers killed 29 Pakistani military personnel.

In Bannu Convoy attack 27 Pakistani soldiers killed.

 

[Immanuel]

A factual Comparison between India's Brahmos Missile and Pakistan's Babur and Raad Cruise Missiles.

The missile is a Russian company NPO and Indian private venture joint production. It is a rearranged P-800 from Russia. The P-800 in use with Russia has a range of 600 Km, but due to international regulations a country cannot export missiles of over 300 km range and cannot export nuclear missile of any range. Russians had to limit the Brahmos range to 295 Kilometers. All versions of Brahmos in use with India won't go beyond 295 kilometers. But there is a problem with this stated range.
The missile can only travel the full 295 kilometer if flying at 14 Kilometer altitude. Lower the flight altitude, lower the range. At low altitude the missile has lowest range of only 120 kilometers. That's because the missile is a supersonic missile and on paper being supersonic looks good but high speed has it's demerits. Once anything crosses the speed of sound it creates a shock wave or wall of compressed air in front of it which it has to keep pushing to move forward. That's because air simply can't get out of the way fast enough to make way for the missile , and accumulates. Higher the speed above sound and denser the wall of compressed air and more energy needed to push it. At higher altitudes air is thin and this effect is less pronounced. At lower altitude air is dense and the problem is magnified. That's why reduction in Brahmos range with reduced altitude .
For a missile flying that high to increase range, the stealth is compromised and enemy sees it from far away.
So in Brahmos case two main requirements for a cruise missile, range and stealth are compromised because it's supersonic. Other problem is invulnerability. Brahmos cannot make tight turns and cannot go round the mountains and buildings same as subsonic cruise missiles do to avoid detection and increase accuracy. It's just too fast to do that and can only make gentle adjustments to it's flight path.
No wonder most advanced armies prefer using a subsonic cruise missile, such as European Storm shadow, American Tomahawk and Pakistani Babur and Raad.
The other problem is cost and weight to range ratio. Brahmos being supersonic has to endure high levels of stress and heat due to air friction .Also the engine used to obtain supersonic speeds is called Ramjet engine, and it is, not fuel efficient. So the missile also carries far more fuel than a Subsonic missile.
For that reason it needs to be made of better and expensive alloys ,increasing cost and weight.
At 3 million a piece and weighing 3 tons for ground and naval version, the missile goes only 295 km, or less than half as far as Pakistan's babur.
Babur cruise missile only costs a few hundred thousand a piece and goes more than twice the range of Brahmos, while weighing less than half at 1.4 tons.
The bulky missile also cannot carry much explosives and only has a warhead of 250 Kg compared to Babur's 350 Kg.
It is argued that the missile compensates for carrying less explosives by kinetic energy of impact which is very high and can cause substantial damage.
But we did calculate kinetic energy of impact for Pakistan airforce's anti ship missile CM-400AKG and it was 200Kg equivalent of explosives when the CM-400AKG impacts target at Mach 5.
Brahmos impact speed is about half that.
Stipulating by theses known parameters Brahmos will have total destructive power of 250kg warhead and another 100 kg equivalent of warhead power, making its impact and warhead explosion equivalent of 350 kg of chemical explosives. That's same as Babur albeit at much lower costs.
Every missile needs a launcher and so does Brahmos. It wasn't difficult or expensive to fit a few trucks with Brahmos land version tubular launchers, the problem arises when India wanted to introduce sea and air versions of Brahmos. The missile was just too big in length and breadth to be able to be fitted on any Indian naval platform without major modifications to the ship or submarine. A total of 13 Indian Navy ships have been fitted with Brahmos Ship to Ship and Ship to shore missiles. But the problem of range remains as it is. To fire the missile in sea skimming mode or a Combination of High altitude and low altitude flight the Indian Navy ships will have to come within less than 200 Kilometers of enemy Ships or coast. That will be well within range of Pakistan Navy's C-802 Missiles. The Brahmos will also lose stealth as mentioned earlier and very much likely to become a target of Pakistan Navy's 5000 Rounds per minute CIWS automated guns.
However it can be argued that anti ship capability is the only viable characteristic of Brahmos. Pakistan is using much cheaper options such as C-802 and now home made Zarb Missile.
About Submarine Launch of Barhmos. A submerged pontoon test fire of the missile was conducted in 2013 and hailed successful. But the missile needs special Launch tubes or Vertical Launch system VLS, as the missile is too wide for Submarine Torpedo tubes.These special wide vertical tubes will have to be retro fitted on existing Indian submarines. that is an extremely expensive undertaking and the time frame needed to do the job is many months taking the submarine out of service. No such attempts have been made and no Indian submarine is even undergoing any conversion for Brahmos launch.
On the other hand Pakistan built Babur Cruise missiles keeping in view Submarine design and dimensions. A standard Submarine Torpedo tube is 533 Millimeters in diameter. Babur Cruise missile was kept narrow at 520 Millimeter diameter,so that it could be fitted in an existing Pakistani submarine Torpedo tube without any significant and expensive modification to the submarine. The capability was first demonstrated on 09th of January 2017 when an unspecified submarine launched a Babur cruise missile from Torpedo tube. The only modification required to the submarine was to the software of fire control system.
About Air launch Brahmos. The Private firm Brahmos corporation did modify the missile for air launch. Reducing the weight from 3 Tons to 2.5 Tons and developing a special rail to be fitted to Indian jets.
Trouble was that Indian air force had no jets capable of lifting an 8 meter long 25000 Kilo missile. The largest Indian airforce jet the SU-30MKI simply doesn't have enough structural strength to hang 2.5 tons on a single hard point.
The solution was to modify the jets specially for Carrying Brahmos. Again an expensive undertaking. But Indian Government did agree to pay for the project. A total of 40 IAF SU-30 had to be structurally strengthened for carrying a single the missile under the belly . Additional metal frames had to be welded to the jet to increase strength,making it heavy and effecting overall performance,reducing range. So far only one such jet has been handed over to IAF and completing modification on 39 more will take many more years.
So in effect so far only one IAF jet can carry and fire a Brahmos. It's another thing that even that hasn't been done yet and the project is still experimental .But IAF jets are not ready as explained above,and no deliveries have been made by Brahmos manufacturer.

On the other hand the whole fleet of Pakistan's Mirage jets can carry and fire one Raad cruise missile from under the belly hard point. Thus making Pakistan air force Nuclear capable,while no such capability exists among Indian air force.No According to reports India has made arrangements with Russia to increase the range of Brahmos.. For doing that, all existing Brahmos missiles in the Indian arsenal will have to go back to the factory and refitted and reprogrammed. Whenever that happens, the missile will attain a maximum range of what Russian version of P-800 had, a maximum range of 600 kilometre at altitude, decreasing to less than 200 kilometre if the missile is sent on sea skimming or low flying mode.. However work hasn't started on the project yet. IAF has put a requisition for 200 Air launched versions of Brahmos.
On the other hand, being subsonic, both babur and Raad maintain the range in all flight profiles. 700 + km for Babur and 350+ Km for raad. The Pakistani air launched cruise missile Raad also carries much heavier warhead of 450 kg than Brahmo 250 kg
No wonder India is trying to make a subsonic cruise missile now, the Nirbhay, which is a few years away from induction.

Brahmos range isn't an issue, the MTCR limits will be removed since we are now a signatory. Second that Brahmos can't maneuver is absolute hogwash, this ability have been proven time and time again. Block 3 Brahmos is already deployed and even if it flies in a hi-lo config, you still little defenses that can stop it. Your entire surface fleet is under threat to such missiles along side the Club missiles. Your C-802 missiles are subsonic and can be easily tackled by our ships which have next gen Naval Buks and Barak missiles. With range increases to 600km, brahmos will have lo-lo range of 240km, more than enough for most needs.

As for Brahmos on Su-30mki, several MKIs have already been modified and once the testing is complete by end of this year, many more will be modified quickly since the aircraft that will undergo these upgrades have been identified. True, initial batch is for 40 MKI were identified for Brahmos but many MKI will also be added once they reach MLU shortly. You seem to forget we also have plenty of Russian and Israeli cruise missiles in our inventory till then.
Nirbhay from the onset was a next gen cruise missile, the requirements were quick hefty to begin with:

The missiles needs to be controllable i.s ability to slow down and speed up (this has been proven during the one successful trial)
The missile need to be programmable mid air, i.e many way points can be added or removed after launch (this has been proven during the one successful trial)
The missile should have the ability to be put into loiter holding pattern while a target is assigned (this has been proven during the one successful trial)

The missile eventually should be able to deploy around 20+ different types of warhead from HE, Bunkerbusting, Thermobaric, Fragmentation, Nukes, Cluster, Antiship etc
The missile should be deployable from ground launchers, MKI/Rafale, Submarines and ships

http://www.army-technology.com/news/newsindian-brahmos-block-iii-variant

Babur and RAAD missiles are easy targets for Akash SAM, Spyder-SAM and others already deployed in good numbers across the nation.

Agni-5 can carry a payload of 1.5 tons to 5000+km, with a smaller warhead, this distance goes our farther and can be upto 8000km, same go for the K-15/Shaurya missile which has a range of 750 km-1800km with a 1000kg-200kg payload, flies in cruise like trajectory at altitudes of 40-50 km with a speed of over mach 7.5. Also the tests were conducted from 50m, so this idea that it can't be launched beyond 10m depth is a myth. The missile has also proven 20-30 CEP, pretty accurate for nuke capable missile.

K-4 missile has a similar flight trajectory as the K-15 but at ranges over 3500 km with a 2 ton payload, you can be sure with a lighter load this range can be as high as 5000 km as well. It also has higher cruise speeds.

 

[Safriz]

Pakistan air force has demonstrated Nuclear capability. Indian air force has never shown any nuclear capability despite claims of completing "Nuclear Triad".
Question is how exactly Indian Air force fits into the nuclear triad?

 

[Immanuel]

Indian AF was deploying its nukes from Jaguars, Mirages and MKI in the form of unguided free-fall bombs, recently there have been tests of heavy 1000kg class glide bombs, both tested with and without a wing kit, allowing for a drop range for 30 km for the former and 100km for the later. It's not difficult to convert unguided nuke bombs into guided ones.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ide-bombs-in-Pokhran/articleshow/53780015.cms

Also Brahmos will eventually carry nuke warheads.