Debunking Indian claims of F-16 firing AIM-120C AMRAAM

[alphibeti]

I hope nobody wrote this but I thought the serial number on the missile was from Taiwan which could happen as India and Taiwan have joint exercises.

Yes, you're right - it is the number for Taiwan contract. And Indians are caught pants down. In fact, many people have mentioned that fact yesterday in several threads here on PDF.

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

Modi is unsatisafied with the mighty SU30s

https://twitter.com/x/status/1101863221533790210

 

[Philip the Arab]

Modi is unsatisafied with the mighty SU30s

https://twitter.com/x/status/1101863221533790210

Key word "Could" I doubt it would have made much a difference since Pakistani pilots evidently perform better than their Indian counterparts in the modern world and the pilots would have little experience flying the jet.

I do think Pakistan should bring SAM systems about 20 km from the LOC so that if Indian planes try doing anything like before they will be stopped before Pakistan has to scramble jets.
And also Pakistan should make sure there are plenty of Anza's in case India tries attacking with attack helicopters or just to shoot down helicopters in general.

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1101891109712814080

 

[Philip the Arab]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1101891109712814080

Good laugh imagine if they actually did that, of course Imran Khan would win because of his sports experience and him being younger.

 

[Chhatrapati]

india seems to have a beef with Taiwan

Beef or not, that source seems @Dubious given the official sources show, the part is not sold to Taiwan but to Czech Republic, Hungary, Jordan, Malaysia, and Canada. It reads as follows.

"Raytheon Co. Missile Systems, Tucson, Ariz., was awarded on 28 December 2005, a $50,739,270 firm fixed price contract modification to provide for 102 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile Air Vehicles under the foreign military sales program for the following countries: Czech Republic, Hungary, Jordan, Malaysia, and Canada. Total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete in July 2008. Headquarters Medium Range Missile Systems Group, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00016)."

Source : http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3193

And we know Pakistan purchased Jordanian F-16 package. The second deal was stopped by the US.

 

[Dubious]

And we know Pakistan purchased Jordanian F-16 package. The second deal was stopped by the US.

So database didnt update it?

We are opening the F-16 scenario so anyone can come and count

 

[PurAzamBaHadaf]

So database didnt update it?

We are opening the F-16 scenario so anyone can come and count

What I still don't get it and excuse me for this since I am more invested into the Army, wouldn't the US require an explanation since the F16 isn't to be used to attack overseas and we need their permission? Also, by "opening the f16 scenario" do you mean that personnel from media or government will be able to verify no F16 was shot down?

 

[Chakar The Great]

On February 27th amid heightening tensions between India and Pakistan in Kashmir, an Indian Air Force MiG-21 aircraft was shot down by Pakistan. In the ensuing war of words over the incidents, both sides made varying claims about the incident, with India saying they had downed a Pakistani aircraft, while Pakistan stated it had downed two Indian aircraft. India acknowledged the loss of one, while Pakistan denied any losses of aircraft.

Against this backdrop, when images of apparent aircraft wreckage started popping up on social media, different interpretations were offered on what the images actually show. This post focuses on claims that pictures released by Pakistan actually showed parts of an F-16, purportedly downed by India.

The two tweets below are examples of claims made regarding the aircraft pieces.



ANI

✔@ANI

File picture of cross section of F16 engine and wreckage of downed Pakistani F16 jet



Tuku@tukupanti

step to confirm that its a F16 debris

1. check box no. in 1st img.

2. search it in F16 database, link below.http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16 …

3. It's Jordan F16. How it's reached Pak, link below.https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/us-pakistan-f-16-deal-is-dead-islamabad-mulling-jordan-f-16-fighter-jets-instead/ …

credit of info- @SamStein357 #Abhinandan


The tweets above claimed to show F-16 parts, so we’re focusing on these for the verification. First, comparing two of the images released by Pakistan, we can determine they are two different perspectives of the same aircraft part. The colored arrows point out details that can be used for matching, such as a service hatch and a bent metal pipe.

A YouTube video from the scene also presents a walkaround view of the same part, establishing the same. (1:56 onwards)


The imagery appears to show an exhaust consistent with an R-25 enginefound on the MiG-21bis. Additional imagery from the scene helps us verify this is the tail section. For example, this image:

If we rotate the image 180 degrees and put it side-by-side with a MiG-21’s tail, we have a good match.

For completeness, we can also match the section with the box which was claimed to contain an F-16 serial to this same piece.

According to a MiG-21 service manual available through CIA’s archive, we can determine that this is the thermocouple service hatch. Another manual for the aircraft states that the thermocouple junction box is located in this part of the aircraft, so it’s possible that is the function of the numbered box.

In fact, if we take a closer look at the service hatch, we can see a “CU” format serial number on there, which is used on the upgrade Indian MiG-21bis aircraft.

So, taken together, this is all so say that the claim about the writing on the junction box proving this is be an F-16 part is not correct. This is in fact very much part of an Indian MiG-21.

But what about the other fragment that was matched to an F-16, suggesting it was part of the engine? We don’t have a good match to an F-16 there, either. On the left below, we see an F-16 GE F110 engine being removed from the aircraft. (U.S. Air Force photo) On the right, a close up of the fragment from Pakistan. Note the uniform rectangular distribution on the F-16 engine cover, while the piece in Pakistan in showing different patterns and thicknesses of supports on the piece, while also curving inward.

Here, YouTube gives us another interesting point of comparison. Reportedly, a MiG-21bis was shot down in Croatia in 1991, and the wreckage of the aircraft is on display at the “museum collection of the homeland war in Turanj“. The YouTube walkaround of this wreckage shows features which match better to a MiG-21 than an F-16.

In summary, there’s no compelling evidence offered as of yet that an F-16 would have been shot down, and all signs point to MiG-21 wreckage having been on display thus far.

 

[aziqbal]

no F16 was not downed its not even a myth its a plain lie

what we need to establish now is the nature of the second IAF aircraft

2 seater either Su30 or Mirage 2000

 

[Dubious]

What I still don't get it and excuse me for this since I am more invested into the Army, wouldn't the US require an explanation since the F16 isn't to be used to attack overseas and we need their permission? Also, by "opening the f16 scenario" do you mean that personnel from media or government will be able to verify no F16 was shot down?

Well I am also not sure...
1) Pak clearly said we didnt use F16.
2) The indians narrative is we used ones we bought from somehwere else
3) We are prob giving permission to professionals to come and see for themselves and journalists are allowed to take note of the process.

Beef or not, that source seems @Dubious given the official sources show, the part is not sold to Taiwan but to Czech Republic, Hungary, Jordan, Malaysia, and Canada. It reads as follows.

"Raytheon Co. Missile Systems, Tucson, Ariz., was awarded on 28 December 2005, a $50,739,270 firm fixed price contract modification to provide for 102 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile Air Vehicles under the foreign military sales program for the following countries: Czech Republic, Hungary, Jordan, Malaysia, and Canada. Total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete in July 2008. Headquarters Medium Range Missile Systems Group, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00016)."

Source : http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3193

And we know Pakistan purchased Jordanian F-16 package. The second deal was stopped by the US.

What really is dubious is the number of times india has to change its story

 

[PurAzamBaHadaf]

Well I am also not sure...
1) Pak clearly said we didnt use F16.
2) The indians narrative is we used ones we bought from somehwere else
3) We are prob giving permission to professionals to come and see for themselves and journalists are allowed to take note of the process.

What really is dubious is the number of times india has to change its story

I see... I hope PAF does go with option 3 because then we might see another story from the Indian Govt which should be entertaining shall I say

no F16 was not downed its not even a myth its a plain lie

what we need to establish now is the nature of the second IAF aircraft

2 seater either Su30 or Mirage 2000

I was watching this show I think on ARY where an Air Vice Marshall (forgot the name.... bad memory jeeezz) mentioned how it was an Su30... now I am no expert but it made me think it might be true since he must have some inside information.

 

[MuslimRao]

I used to wish Pak had more Russian equipment, now I thank Allah for he is the greatest of planners. They are out in full force supporting India and trying to make this look bad for Pakistan. Your equipment is bad and you should feel bad Russia. It underperformed. Israel constantly defeats your AA systems and now Pakistan destroyed your fighter aircraft. Either start selling to us or force Indians to fly on autopilot this looks terrible for the Russians

Wouldn't put it past them to cover this up. I guarantee somewhere in Russia one of two things is happening:

An SU-30 is being quietly delivered to India by sea.

A frozen factory in Siberia is working tirelessly to produce a clone to the jet we downed as fast as possible while Putin stares them down.

 

[Pukhtoon]

On February 27th amid heightening tensions between India and Pakistan in Kashmir, an Indian Air Force MiG-21 aircraft was shot down by Pakistan. In the ensuing war of words over the incidents, both sides made varying claims about the incident, with India saying they had downed a Pakistani aircraft, while Pakistan stated it had downed two Indian aircraft. India acknowledged the loss of one, while Pakistan denied any losses of aircraft.

Against this backdrop, when images of apparent aircraft wreckage started popping up on social media, different interpretations were offered on what the images actually show. This post focuses on claims that pictures released by Pakistan actually showed parts of an F-16, purportedly downed by India.

The two tweets below are examples of claims made regarding the aircraft pieces.



ANI

✔@ANI

File picture of cross section of F16 engine and wreckage of downed Pakistani F16 jet



Tuku@tukupanti

step to confirm that its a F16 debris

1. check box no. in 1st img.

2. search it in F16 database, link below.http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16 …

3. It's Jordan F16. How it's reached Pak, link below.https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/us-pakistan-f-16-deal-is-dead-islamabad-mulling-jordan-f-16-fighter-jets-instead/ …

credit of info- @SamStein357 #Abhinandan


The tweets above claimed to show F-16 parts, so we’re focusing on these for the verification. First, comparing two of the images released by Pakistan, we can determine they are two different perspectives of the same aircraft part. The colored arrows point out details that can be used for matching, such as a service hatch and a bent metal pipe.

A YouTube video from the scene also presents a walkaround view of the same part, establishing the same. (1:56 onwards)


The imagery appears to show an exhaust consistent with an R-25 enginefound on the MiG-21bis. Additional imagery from the scene helps us verify this is the tail section. For example, this image:

If we rotate the image 180 degrees and put it side-by-side with a MiG-21’s tail, we have a good match.

For completeness, we can also match the section with the box which was claimed to contain an F-16 serial to this same piece.

According to a MiG-21 service manual available through CIA’s archive, we can determine that this is the thermocouple service hatch. Another manual for the aircraft states that the thermocouple junction box is located in this part of the aircraft, so it’s possible that is the function of the numbered box.

In fact, if we take a closer look at the service hatch, we can see a “CU” format serial number on there, which is used on the upgrade Indian MiG-21bis aircraft.

So, taken together, this is all so say that the claim about the writing on the junction box proving this is be an F-16 part is not correct. This is in fact very much part of an Indian MiG-21.

But what about the other fragment that was matched to an F-16, suggesting it was part of the engine? We don’t have a good match to an F-16 there, either. On the left below, we see an F-16 GE F110 engine being removed from the aircraft. (U.S. Air Force photo) On the right, a close up of the fragment from Pakistan. Note the uniform rectangular distribution on the F-16 engine cover, while the piece in Pakistan in showing different patterns and thicknesses of supports on the piece, while also curving inward.

Here, YouTube gives us another interesting point of comparison. Reportedly, a MiG-21bis was shot down in Croatia in 1991, and the wreckage of the aircraft is on display at the “museum collection of the homeland war in Turanj“. The YouTube walkaround of this wreckage shows features which match better to a MiG-21 than an F-16.

In summary, there’s no compelling evidence offered as of yet that an F-16 would have been shot down, and all signs point to MiG-21 wreckage having been on display thus far.

This is the most comprehensive debunking of Indians' claim of having shot down an F-16. you deserve some +ives for the effort.
Is this your article and are you Veli Pekka? >https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2019/03/02/falcon-vs-bison-verifying-a-mig-21-wreck/

 

[HAIDER]

This is strange they have piece of missile , but no piece of plane. Seems either pilot was ridding on missile. Or secretly ,Pakistan has modified JF17 to launch AIM 120C.