Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[he-man]

buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....

I don't need to .
The products developed by them speak for them.its u who is chest thumping and not me.

If we have to move forward,hal needs to be disbanded and privatised,otherwise we will keep on importing 70 pc of stuff even after 50 years from now

 

[he-man]

And for the love of god I know the engineers are good and dedicated so I am laughing at the sarkari setup and poor planning and not at the talent pool

 

[sancho]

I have often wondered about this mythic industrial benefit, What exactly is it. Some explanation would help.

Take Samtel for example, they get the chance to produce not only the HMS that they already produce, but also the FSO optronics system, most likely including the IRST and even some displays.
This would not be possible, if the deal would not include the high offset clause, which demands production parts in whatever form (licence production, JVs, ideally even in co-development) back to the Indian industry. The AESA production at BEL, including ToT and source codes will also help our own developments in that regard. I hoped that the French would go for more co-developments, but sadly that didn't happend so far, but anything that can help us wrt to development or production of techs, systems or even weapons must be highly welcomed!

 

[sancho]

Finally, a tri-modes version is being developped.

Which sensors are they aiming too? GPS/INS, laser and IR in once? Would be great operationally, but might make the AASM even more costly isn't it? Sadly still nothing about a much needed wingkit and even worse no re-design of the 125Kg version to make it quadpack compatible.

 

[sancho]

Ithat has implemented more engineering projects than the rest of the private sector of the country combined

Is that a big thing by the fact that there wasn't and still isn't (in all fields) a competitior to HAL in the aero field in India? Who else was able to build the MKIs, or upgrade the older fighters so far? But look at the changes now and how TATA is pushing out licence produced helicopters from several different companies in high numbers, if I'm not wrong at even higher rates than HAL does it with their helicopter production lines and in a shorter time since they started with it.
HAL had the comfort zone of no competition so far, but that is changing and HAL just like the other PSUs have to improve themselfs to remain competitive.
That's what the Russians btw had learned in our market as well! The comfort zone of having nearly a monopoly in India is over and they have to provide higher quality, better reliability and more timely delivery too.

 

[dbc]

@sancho what is India's acquisition budget for 2014? According to what I've read I estimate it to be 8 billion USD.
Obviously India cannot afford to buy everything it needs this year. How do you see MoD prioritizing acquisitions in 2014?
What is more important? AWACS? Tankers? Chinook? Apache? M777? MMRCA? Submarines? Assault ship? Since the MMRCA will likely eat up a bulk of the acquisition budget in 2014, is the army and navy willing to defer or delay their plans to accommodate the MMRCA?

 

[sancho]

@sancho what is India's acquisition budget for 2014? According to what I've read I estimate it to be 8 billion USD.
Obviously India cannot afford to buy everything it needs this year. How do you see MoD prioritizing acquisitions in 2014?
What is more important? AWACS? Tankers? Chinook? Apache? M777? MMRCA? Submarines? Assault ship? Since the MMRCA will likely eat up a bulk of the acquisition budget in 2014, is the army and navy willing to defer or delay their plans to accommodate the MMRCA?

The interim budget for 2014/15 is planned around $36 billion, not sure how you get to $8 and MMRCA is logically not a single payment, but diverted over several years and so that's not an issue either. Nobody here can tell you what should have priority, that's up to MoD.

 

[rockstarIN]

Even all those payments will be spread out in coming years.

 

[dbc]

The interim budget for 2014/15 is planned around $36 billion, not sure how you get to $8 and MMRCA is logically not a single payment, but diverted over several years and so that's not an issue either. Nobody here can tell you what should have priority, that's up to MoD.

Yes 36 Billion USD is the total budget of which the amount allocated for capital acquisition is 12.2 Billion USD and not 8 Billion as I had incorrectly stated earlier of which the IAF's share is 5.3 billion USD. Assuming 20% of 20 billion dollars is paid to Dassault in 2014 it still takes a big chunk out of the IAF's budget for 2014. Which acquisitions do you think the IAF will defer to pay for Rafales?

India’s Interim Defence Budget 2014-15: An Appraisal | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

 

[rockstarIN]

Yes 36 Billion USD is the total budget of which the amount allocated for capital acquisition is 12.2 Billion USD and not 8 Billion as I had incorrectly stated earlier of which the IAF's share is 5.3 billion USD. Assuming 20% of 20 billion dollars is paid to Dassault in 2014 it still takes a big chunk out of the IAF's budget for 2014. Which acquisitions do you think the IAF will defer to pay for Rafales?

India’s Interim Defence Budget 2014-15: An Appraisal | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

First of all, MMRCA is not about US$ 20 billion, which already stated in this tread itself. Secondly the total cost of MMRCA, whether it is 12 Billion or 20 BL, it is the life circle cost, we do not need to pay in the stright terms. The first payments will be for 16 jets on fly away conditions, which will only arrive in 2017 (may be delayed depending upon signing of contract) and the setting up the facilities in India, which will start immediately in India. So there not be any 'heavy' payments for MMRCA in 2014-15.

 

[halloweene]

Which sensors are they aiming too? GPS/INS, laser and IR in once? Would be great operationally, but might make the AASM even more costly isn't it? Sadly still nothing about a much needed wingkit and even worse no re-design of the 125Kg version to make it quadpack compatible.

yes

Some nice news today in Air & Cosmos. Export will allow to implement new industrial process on Rafale, like canards building using "adding carbon filaments" (dunno how to translate) technique. Good for RCS , for india and for france

 

[Abingdonboy]

Also it's wrong that we have cash issues, the budget is still as big as last year and didn't the interim budget showed an increase of the defence budget?

Indeed, mr @he-man keeps harping on about these budget constraints but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There is no such budget constraints- none at all, the defence budget is still growing year on year and India's GDP growth this year and next will be a healthy 5-6%, with a little work from the next GoI you will see a return to the good old days of 7-8+ plus from 2016. With a "Mr business" forecasted to be the next PM of India, a return to high GDP growth looks pretty certain.

buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....

Ignore him sir! He is either a false flagger or has some serious issues...


for eg:

Some random Pak member comes along and blows hot air out his backside:

i think per jet cost will be 150million purely due to the fact that rafale producion has been limited till date, its isnt like f-35 or f-16 or even typhoon which cost is down or will be down due to huge orders.
second is the weapon package and training as well as infrastuture it will cost alot.
last is what will be the life cycle cost.?
what i dont understand is how come rafale cost is less than typhoon, it doesnt make sense?

His response:

Dammit
The deal is in real danger

 

[dbc]

First of all, MMRCA is not about US$ 20 billion, which already stated in this tread itself. Secondly the total cost of MMRCA, whether it is 12 Billion or 20 BL, it is the life circle cost, we do not need to pay in the stright terms. The first payments will be for 16 jets on fly away conditions, which will only arrive in 2017 (may be delayed depending upon signing of contract) and the setting up the facilities in India, which will start immediately in India. So there not be any 'heavy' payments for MMRCA in 2014-15.

Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.

 

[he-man]

Indeed, mr @he-man keeps harping on about these budget constraints but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There is no such budget constraints- none at all, the defence budget is still growing year on year and India's GDP growth this year and next will be a healthy 5-6%, with a little work from the next GoI you will see a return to the good old days of 7-8+ plus from 2016. With a "Mr business" forecasted to be the next PM of India, a return to high GDP growth looks pretty certain.


Ignore him sir! He is either a false flagger or has some serious issues...


for eg:

Some random Pak member comes along and blows hot air out his backside:




His response:

Ya man.
Not the first time I have been called a false flagger and won't be last.

I don't give a damn what u think but at least have some knowledge about financials of the economy before making tall claims.

The deal was delayed to cut back current account deficit and they were waiting for next financial year

 

[he-man]

Indeed, mr @he-man keeps harping on about these budget constraints but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There is no such budget constraints- none at all, the defence budget is still growing year on year and India's GDP growth this year and next will be a healthy 5-6%, with a little work from the next GoI you will see a return to the good old days of 7-8+ plus from 2016. With a "Mr business" forecasted to be the next PM of India, a return to high GDP growth looks pretty certain.


Ignore him sir! He is either a false flagger or has some serious issues...


for eg:

Some random Pak member comes along and blows hot air out his backside:




His response:

Plus a man not even residing in india is calling me false flagger is the biggest joke of all time.
U may well be a defence middleman always advocating western stuff without bothering about fiscal position.

Next time don't bother comment