Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[MilSpec]

What is this based on? Real world test data? Operational use data? It is apparent that you love all things Russian - da?

Let me know when ratheon/usaf publishes it's test data...

 

[dbc]

The most logical way would be, that IAF pays for the first 18 Rafales that will be produced by Dassault itself and which are already budgeted by the French forces. Lets assume a high system cost of $150 million each =>$2.7 billions, so roughly half of the budget, but obviously less than what you estimated.
That still leaves more than enough room for Apaches (although I would kick them first for Rudras or LCH, if I had to safe money somewhere), Chinooks and most likely the A330 MRTT.

It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables.
I've always wondered who pays for tooling that will be required by HAL? Is this part of the MMRCA cost estimate?

So your order of priority for the IAF is?
1. A330 MRTT
2. Chinooks
3. Apache

What about AWACS? IADS? light helicopters? Drones? LCA? Jaguar upgrade? Mirage upgrade? Sukhoi upgrade? PakFA and AMCA? Remember, the contract for the Mirage upgrade etc has been signed but payment from these will be due in 2014 and beyond.

 

[dbc]

Let me know when ratheon/usaf publishes it's test data...

But they do publish the results of the test. So it is well known if a missile test met test objectives.
Besides that there is operation history from Vietnam and beyond. So how have Russian BVR missiles performed in combat?

 

[MilSpec]

But they do publish the results of the test. So it is well known if a missile test met test objectives.
Besides that there is operation history from Vietnam and beyond. So how have Russian BVR missiles performed in combat?

Sure use the operational data R27T, from 1991 stock used by ethopia with Prgs 21 seekers as the combat history of vympel okb.
If you choose to believe that IAF inducts missiles without testing them then, good for you.....

Also note IAF fields Python v, Mica and IAF has also expressed interest in integrating Meteor for MKI in the past.

 

[dbc]

Sure use the operational data R27T, from 1991 stock used by ethopia with Prgs 21 seekers as the combat history of vympel okb.
If you choose to believe that IAF inducts missiles without testing them then, good for you.....

Also note IAF fields Python v, Mica and IAF has also expressed interest in integrating Meteor for MKI in the past.

Like the French Durrandal that was too expensive to test until close to its use-by date? And do expand on that Ethopian conflict tell us all how well those Russian missiles performed.

 

[MilSpec]

Like the French Durrandal that was too expensive to test until close to its use-by date? And do expand on that Ethopian conflict tell us all how well those Russian missiles performed.

well if, ethopian conflict is your benchmark for operational validity, then you win... Aim 120 is the best, we are just uneducated to realize that.

 

[rockstarIN]

IF Russian BVRs were not reliable, then IAF would not have purchased it. (Even CAG was skeptical about its performance) We got the deliveries of our latest Mig-29Ks from 2009 onwards and the missiles are of Russian R series. Whereas we could integrate Derby or MICA which was already available in the market for Mig-29K.

It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables.
I've always wondered who pays for tooling that will be required by HAL? Is this part of the MMRCA cost estimate?

So your order of priority for the IAF is?
1. A330 MRTT
2. Chinooks
3. Apache

What about AWACS? IADS? light helicopters? Drones? LCA? Jaguar upgrade? Mirage upgrade? Sukhoi upgrade? PakFA and AMCA? Remember, the contract for the Mirage upgrade etc has been signed but payment from these will be due in 2014 and beyond.

LCA - there is a separate portion of budget for DRDO for testing purpose. Moreover, only 4-5 LCAs will be delivered in 2014-15 of which HAL pegged the price @26 million per jet.
-MKI upgrade - there is no MKI upgrade going on now, not in 2014-15 for sure.
AMCA- No needed to be funded by IAF, will be from DRDO/HAL fund.
Mirage Upgrade - Upgrade already started and, few got fully upgraded till now in France. So payment might have started last financial year itself.

 

[he-man]

IF Russian BVRs were not reliable, then IAF would not have purchased it. (Even CAG was skeptical about its performance) We got the deliveries of our latest Mig-29Ks from 2009 onwards and the missiles are of Russian R series. Whereas we could integrate Derby or MICA which was already available in the market for Mig-29K.




LCA - there is a separate portion of budget for DRDO for testing purpose. Moreover, only 4-5 LCAs will be delivered in 2014-15 of which HAL pegged the price @26 million per jet.
-MKI upgrade - there is no MKI upgrade going on now, not in 2014-15 for sure.
AMCA- No needed to be funded by IAF, will be from DRDO/HAL fund.
Mirage Upgrade - Upgrade already started and, few got fully upgraded till now in France. So payment might have started last financial year itself.

Mki's are old and overrated,need immediate upgrades.

Mirage 2000 upgrade is without engine,its max life even after that 40 million per plane upgrade will be like 10 years max.

A new mig 29 costs 40 million

Then lca,i don't even want to comment

 

[Abingdonboy]

Mki's are old and overrated,need immediate upgrades.

Riiiiiiight........ "old" and "overrated", easy meat for your Thunders eh?

 

[sancho]

So you are saying that Samtel cannot make these on their own so rafale deal will facilitate samtel in producing such subsystems... is that correct?

Yes, they can't do it alone, that's why they went for the JV with Thales.

Astra's seeker are nothing like the R77's

Where did I said it would? I said that the missile is aimed on the same performance and similar capabilities like the R77s, since the main idea is to replace them in the Indian inventory. But neither does it looks like we have met the performance, nor is it developed with much foresight, when you already develop NG fighters.

Is there any indian organisation developing FLIR systems by any chance, like IRDE?

I read that there were some developments in that direction, not sure which company it was, but by the fact that we are completely dependent on Israeli FLIRs or optical sights, the success should be limited. Aren't even the IR sights of the MBT upgrades Israeli, not to mention the FLIRs of combat helicopters or surveillance aircrafts?

It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables

Which is why took the „system“ cost, which includes most of this except for weapons, that will be added in seperate deals.

So your order of priority for the IAF is?
1. A330 MRTT
2. Chinooks
3. Apache

Those are at least the procurements that were reportedly the closest to be sealed and most likely aimed at the coming budget. What priority they have, is as said dependent on IAF, not on us. But yes, for me that order would be the way to go.

What about AWACS? IADS? light helicopters? Drones? LCA? Jaguar upgrade? Mirage upgrade? Sukhoi upgrade? PakFA and AMCA? Remember, the contract for the Mirage upgrade etc has been signed but payment from these will be due in 2014 and beyond.

You talked about the budget for new procurements, not upgrades or orders already taken like the A50 AWACS, or the Mirage upgrades. Even if they are due in 2014, they must had been budgeted earlier.

 

[he-man]

Oh yeah they indeed are.

Just look at the irst and radar performance and then try to be a smartass.

It was a good plane 10 years back,with that vintage pesa and a mediocre irst,not to mention an rcs in 8-10 m2 range its not anymore.

Then the al-31 has life of only 2000 hours,no fadec.

Therefore immediate upgrade is required

 

[Abingdonboy]

It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables.
I've always wondered who pays for tooling that will be required by HAL? Is this part of the MMRCA cost estimate?

So your order of priority for the IAF is?
1. A330 MRTT
2. Chinooks
3. Apache
.

From day one the IAF invited bids to provide all of the above, it was never just about the fighters alone, it was about the training, the simulators, weapons, the industrial benefits, etc etc and what was invited were PACKAGES including the above.

 

[he-man]

From day one the IAF invited bids to provide all of the above, it was never just about the fighters alone, it was about the training, the simulators, weapons, the industrial benefits, etc etc and what was invited were PACKAGES including the above.

Cannot disagree with u here.
The only contention is timing of orders.

For that antony needs spanking

 

[sancho]

The only contention is timing of orders.

Which is caused mainly because of the delays in the IAF evaluation, or now the delays in the industrial negotioations between Dassault and Indian counterparts and not because MoD is waiting. Without that Dassault/Reliance issue, I'm sure that the deal would had been signed last year, now everything is dependent on the new Government.
Btw, the MMRCA RFP was aimed ait first delivery in 2015/16, while FGFA was aimed at 2017/18, so there was never a planned gap in the induction of these fighters like you want it, simply because both projects have different aims.

 

[he-man]

Which is caused mainly because of the delays in the IAF evaluation, or now the delays in the industrial negotioations between Dassault and Indian counterparts and not because MoD is waiting. Without that Dassault/Reliance issue, I'm sure that the deal would had been signed last year, now everything is dependent on the new Government.
Btw, the MMRCA RFP was aimed ait first delivery in 2015/16, while FGFA was aimed at 2017/18, so there was never a planned gap in the induction of these fighters like you want it, simply because both projects have different aims.

Here u are wrong.
The project inking and also the fgfa project has been delayed to decrease the current account deficit,the negotiation claim is bullshit.

Its all related to money.

But yes we need rafale,there is simply no going back now,lets hope bjp does not start inquiry on the said deal