Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[halloweene]

Lots of issues were raised here recently.
First price. I heared of that 30 billion and was told BS. (to be plain).
Second well cost. Don't forget ToT costs include a lot of training, industrial procedures (you just don't build a Rafale the same way as a F-35 or Mki, no judgements about planes, but building process is different)
Third is and often forgotten, industrialization costs. Tooling, training ppl on specific tools and process (eg the automated "tube" making of material composites). Again, no judgement about HAL or Reliance,
Quality assessment. Dassault is known to have one of the best worldwide.
Softwares. I know india is full of talented developers. Anyone has been within virtual center at Dassault? It is just like minority reports. And it is not only the software, but how to use it. See recent SAAB comments about it.
Finally, India will get as far as i was told, part of intellectual property of Rafale as far as new subcomponents will be built for indian Rafales.
If that is true (and i won't write it as a journalist, even if i'm the one that got confirmation from Dassault CEO about workshare during his conference), that is quite nice no?

 

[Sergi]

Lots of issues were raised here recently.
First price. I heared of that 30 billion and was told BS. (to be plain).
Second well cost. Don't forget ToT costs include a lot of training, industrial procedures (you just don't build a Rafale the same way as a F-35 or Mki, no judgements about planes, but building process is different)
Third is and often forgotten, industrialization costs. Tooling, training ppl on specific tools and process (eg the automated "tube" making of material composites). Again, no judgement about HAL or Reliance,
Quality assessment. Dassault is known to have one of the best worldwide.
Softwares. I know india is full of talented developers. Anyone has been within virtual center at Dassault? It is just like minority reports. And it is not only the software, but how to use it. See recent SAAB comments about it.
Finally, India will get as far as i was told, part of intellectual property of Rafale as far as new subcomponents will be built for indian Rafales.
If that is true (and i won't write it as a journalist, even if i'm the one that got confirmation from Dassault CEO about workshare during his conference), that is quite nice no?

You are countering your own argument.
You said 30 B$ is BS followded by huge list of expence !!!!
I know its life cycle cost but lets not go there.
If you can tell me
- what will be per "IndiaJet" cost ?
- is there any news about more off-shelf purchase
- whats the capacity of French production line per year ???

 

[sancho]

Point is we are cash starved at the moment and it will persist for another 2-3 years

Which rules out Pak Fa in the first place, as it is far more costly to operate and IAF could buy less of them compared to MMRCA with the same operational budget.
Also it's wrong that we have cash issues, the budget is still as big as last year and didn't the interim budget showed an increase of the defence budget?

 

[halloweene]

If you can tell me
- what will be per "IndiaJet" cost ?
- is there any news about more off-shelf purchase
- whats the capacity of French production line per year ???

i cant answer to that question, all depends on how it is calculated. And as you imagine, as it is negociated, noone will tell you. I can only give you fly away cost for a french one. Last numbers i heared about indians are around 85 to 120 M$ total procurement cost. But these values are just hot air imho.
About off the shelf purchase, they could only (if they must be one day) be decided after MMRCA cue to procurement procedure. (imagine what EF, Boeing or whoever would say in case...)
French production line is tailored for a rough max of 30 planes/year, but it would have impacts on Falcon lines etc. I doubt DA will go into it without VERY strong reasons. DA tend to be old fashioned inc., and not to fire people just for economicla reasons. It has obvoius advantages (soem of best engineers coul be payed bettter by other companis and stay, but also defects (they wont just hire someone for 6 months).

 

[sancho]

Finally, India will get as far as i was told, part of intellectual property of Rafale as far as new subcomponents will be built for indian Rafales.
If that is true (and i won't write it as a journalist, even if i'm the one that got confirmation from Dassault CEO about workshare during his conference), that is quite nice no?

Sounds interesting, but depends on what components we are talking right? IP rights of a custom SATCOM system for Indian Rafales, that you mentioned earlier might be not bad, but isn't an important joint development where India would benefit financially, like it would be the case if India would be partner in the EF consortum. The most benefits in these regards would come through joint developments and although there are several areas with potential to be a win win for India and France, so far there is nothing in that regard!
Which areas would you expect where IP right would be shared?

- whats the capacity of French production line per year ???

Dassaults production line can go up to around 30 as halloweene said, but the current rate is 11 and won't go much higher unless India and Qatar order fighters soon. Currently they are even trying to divert French orders to India or Qatar, to save money in the French defence budget, while the fighters might be added later to the production again, when more money is available again. So don't expect an increase theire, but that won't effect us that much anyway, since (sadly) only 18 should be build completely on their production lines.

 

[halloweene]

i have no clue sancho, just telling what a lil bird told me

 

[sancho]

i have no clue sancho, just telling what a lil bird told me

Ic, something else. Could be wrong but did you recently mentioned something about a new seeker of AASM, here or on IDF? Wasn't sure anymore and can't find the post anymore. Can you shed some light on that, or do you have a source to read up?

 

[ziaulislam]

i think per jet cost will be 150million purely due to the fact that rafale producion has been limited till date, its isnt like f-35 or f-16 or even typhoon which cost is down or will be down due to huge orders.
second is the weapon package and training as well as infrastuture it will cost alot.
last is what will be the life cycle cost.?
what i dont understand is how come rafale cost is less than typhoon, it doesnt make sense?

 

[he-man]

i think per jet cost will be 150million purely due to the fact that rafale producion has been limited till date, its isnt like f-35 or f-16 or even typhoon which cost is down or will be down due to huge orders.
second is the weapon package and training as well as infrastuture it will cost alot.
last is what will be the life cycle cost.?
what i dont understand is how come rafale cost is less than typhoon, it doesnt make sense?

Dammit
The deal is in real danger

 

[MilSpec]

Capability wise it won't, but as a package of operational, industrial and technological benefits it is and that's what M-MRCA is about!

I have often wondered about this mythic industrial benefit, What exactly is it. Some explanation would help.

What new manufacturing process or metallurgical processes will this introduce?

We make russian planes on German and Japanese CNC machines, when it comes to stamping, forming, drawing, deep drawing, forging, casting, machining, planing, profiling EDM/ECM, SLS, I don't see much of a industrial process shortfall. So it might be a good practice to ask what are the Industrial technological benefits that Rafale offers.

 

[he-man]

I have often wondered about this mythic industrial benefit, What exactly is it. Some explanation would help.

What new manufacturing process or metallurgical processes will this introduce?

We make russian planes on German and Japanese CNC machines, when it comes to stamping, forming, drawing, deep drawing, forging, casting, machining, planing, profiling EDM/ECM, SLS, I don't see much of a industrial process shortfall. So it might be a good practice to ask what are the Industrial technological benefits that Rafale offers.

Nothing.
Its a screwdriver job,everyone knows it.

Most of all fat cats of hal know it that after this,they can relax for next 10 years with their pathetic building speed.

Now sancho will come and contradict me but hal has proven its failure for anything worthwhile for decades now,ain't gonna change

 

[MilSpec]

Nothing.
Its a screwdriver job,everyone knows it.

Most of all fat cats of hal know it that after this,they can relax for next 10 years with their pathetic building speed.

Now sancho will come and contradict me but hal has proven its failure for anything worthwhile for decades now,ain't gonna change

buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....

 

[Dillinger]

buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....

The thing is that most of our posters have no idea of the organisational dynamics, MoD's idiocies and the actual technical details involved. Start by asking him which project has HAL failed in, Tejas? How is that possible when the MoD ensured that HAL never designed the product in the first place thanks to the sudden and ad hoc (at least that's how it looks to me) decision to set up the ADA and pull the Tejas's design responsibility away from HAL thus rendering HAL in to a systems integrator. But the blame still is hung around HAL'S neck. That is not to say that HAL hasn't made its share of mistake, it has most definitely, but people need to understand the context otherwise appropriating blame is all we'll be left with rather than the more important follow up step of finding the solution.

 

[MilSpec]

The thing is that most of our posters have no idea of the organisational dynamics, MoD's idiocies and the actual technical details involved. Start by asking him which project has HAL failed in, Tejas? How is that possible when the MoD ensured that HAL never designed the product in the first place thanks to the sudden and ad hoc (at least that's how it looks to me) decision to set up the ADA and pull the Tejas's design responsibility away from HAL thus rendering HAL in to a systems integrator. But the blame still is hung around HAL'S neck. That is not to say that HAL hasn't made its share of mistake, it has most definitely, but people need to understand the context otherwise appropriating blame is all we'll be left with rather than the more important follow up step of finding the solution.

I will openly criticize HAL's older generation of managers for not pushing harder on Mod for budgetary needs training, engagement, delivery, quality regime, scrap, rework etc. But maligning the premier agency that has implemented more engineering projects than the rest of the private sector of the country combined is something i will never accept.

HAL has and will make mistakes, that's why MoD is there to ensure to keep checks and balance. But using a top organisation as buzz word for negative implications is nothing short of disservice to convictions and hard work of thousand of engineers and technicians who have devoted their lives in service of the nation.

 

[halloweene]

Ic, something else. Could be wrong but did you recently mentioned something about a new seeker of AASM, here or on IDF? Wasn't sure anymore and can't find the post anymore. Can you shed some light on that, or do you have a source to read up?

Air&Cosmos, Feb 2013. summed it up here eurofighter @ starstreak.net • View topic - Typhoon export prospects snapshot

We make russian planes on German and Japanese CNC machines, when it comes to stamping, forming, drawing, deep drawing, forging, casting, machining, planing, profiling EDM/ECM, SLS, I don't see much of a industrial process shortfall. So it might be a good practice to ask what are the Industrial technological benefits that Rafale offers.

Obviously Rafale team (not only Dassault) will not communicate about that before any signature... (and probably not after either as they consider it is client privilege to do so)