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France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade

The retrofit, which includes a Rs 30 billion proposal to augment the capabilities of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to retrofit 47 Mirage-2000Hs in Bangalore in as many months, after four were readied in France within 40 months of the deal being inked, would, doubtlessly enhance the Mirage-2000H's operational relevance but one which senior IAF officers believe makes little sense for such an astronomical price.
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/france-tries-to-tie-rafale-with-mirage-upgrade

so , it will take 40month to upgrade first 4 in france then rest will upgraded in india..

how much time it will take , ...and how long the planes will fly after that..?

at $40ml , why not buy MIG-35 with AESA radar..
or simplly just LCA...
 
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IAF won't accept any last minute offers from contenders

New Delhi, Mar 28 (PTI) The Indian Air Force has decided against accepting any last minute offers from the contenders of the multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 126 fighter aircraft even as it rejected a bidder's proposal to equip its warplanes with a more powerful jet engine.

"No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials," IAF sources said here.

Six companies -- Lockheed Martin (F-16), Boeing (F/A-18 E/F), Dassault Aviation (Rafale), Saab Gripen, Rosoboronexport MiG 35 and EADS Eurofighter Typhoon are contenders in the USD 11 billion dollar contract of the IAF for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

fullstory

so , even boeing knows where they fail ...
 
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France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade

Insidious French attempts to link the Indian Air Force's (IAFs) long-postponed and contentious Mirage 2000H fleet upgrade to the $10 billion acquisition of Dassault's Rafale fighters in support of the IAF's requirement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), have further delayed the pending retrofit.

Ostensibly, the deal to upgrade the IAFs 51 Vajra (Thunderbolt) Mirage 2000Hs, widely expected to be confirmed by end-March with fighter manufacturers Dassault Aviation, official sources said, had been further deferred beyond the March 2011 deadline following unresolved price differences over the retrofit.

The IAF merely confirmed the upgrade agreement had not been signed but declined to elaborate.

Last month Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India in Bangalore that the "complex and lengthy" negotiations with Dassault Aviation to upgrade the Mirage 2000Hs to Mirage 2000-5 levels had "concluded satisfactorily" and would be announced "shortly" by the Ministry of Defence (MoD). But military and armament industry sources said in recent weeks that the retrofit had been "complicated" by pressure from a desperate France to "inter-relate" it to the MMRCA procurement reportedly nearing closure.

Rafale is pitted against Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RSK's) MiG 35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen for the MMRCA deal that is expected to increase to 200 fighters for around $16 billion.

On 10 March, ACM Naik had declared that the MoD would shortlist the MMRCA from amongst the six competitors by end-March and "hopefully" confirm the procurement four months later in July.

Believing Rafale to be in the MoD's shortlist alongside Eurofighter and F/A-18, the French were reportedly using the Mirage 2000H upgrade as leverage and possibly even an inducement to push their fighter so far only in service with the French military.

Earlier, in January 2008 Dassault's chief executive officer Charles Edelstenne, accompanying French President Nicolas Sarkozy on his India visit had made an unsolicited offer of supplying the IAF 40 Rafale fighters pending an "eventual decision" to augment its dwindling fighter fleet.

"If India is interested, we are ready to answer (with Rafale fighters). The offer stands," Edelstenne had declared, adding that the proposal to supply 40 Rafales was a "short term measure" keeping in mind delays that normally accompany all Indian defence contracts.

"We have some experience with Indian delays. Which is why Dassault has made the unsolicited offer," he stated. At the time the MoD and the IAF declined to comment on Edelstenne's offer.

Edelstenne also maintained that French government policies were more conducive than those of the United States for smooth defence ties with India.

"Our market is for countries that want to be independent of the US. The US policy (of imposing sanctions and stopping military deals) is well-known. We are a country which sells military equipment without any preconditions," he said.

The Dassault head was referring to US-imposed sanctions on India for its 1998 nuclear tests that impacted negatively on several domestic military projects and in providing spares to Indian Navy helicopters, a measure that severely curtailed their operational mobility. The sanctions, eventually lifted in October 2001 also impacted adversely on India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft programme, delaying its development by several years as it is powered by a US-supplied engine.

Meanwhile, the IAF and the MoD had dismissed Dassault's demand of $3.3 billion to retrofit the Mirage-2000H fleet as "highly inflated". Both concurred that each upgrade, costing around Rs 2.9 billion each, which included equipping the fighters with new avionics, advanced navigation systems, mission computers and a pulse doppler radar capable of identifying objects up to a distance of 70 nm, was roughly equivalent to the price of a new fighter but critically without the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

In comparison, upgrading the IAF's 63 MiG-29 fighters presently underway in Russia was costing $964 million or a reasonable $15.3 million. The retrofit would render the MiG 29 from being an aerial interceptor and air dominance fighter to becoming a fighter-bomber capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on ground and at sea with high-precision weapons under all weather conditions.

Dassault officials, however, rationalised this huge upgrade cost by maintaining that the retrofitted fighters would provide IAF commanders the operational flexibility to commit fewer aircraft on combat missions for higher success rates, thereby rendering the programme cost effective.

Additionally, the upgraded electronic warfare systems, including radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, electronic jammers and countermeasure systems and enhanced fuel capacity would keep the Mirage-2000Hs operationally relevant for over two decades.

Glass cockpits and helmet-mounted displays would complete the upgrade, in addition to arming them with Rafael Armament Development Authority's medium-range stand-off AGM-142 Raptor/Have Nap/Popeye air-to-surface launched cruise missile, specially configured for the IAF and codenamed "Crystal Maze" with an 80-100 km range. They would also be armed with MBDA's MICA, the anti-air multi-target, all weather, fire-and-forget short and medium-range missile systems.

The retrofit, which includes a Rs 30 billion proposal to augment the capabilities of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to retrofit 47 Mirage-2000Hs in Bangalore in as many months, after four were readied in France within 40 months of the deal being inked, would, doubtlessly enhance the Mirage-2000H's operational relevance but one which senior IAF officers believe makes little sense for such an astronomical price.
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/france-tries-to-tie-rafale-with-mirage-upgrade

I think IAF should take a Firm stand on this issue , if the contract is signed now , then first upgraded aircraft will be delivered in 2014 and last one could be delivered in 2018 ,
These upgrades were meant to increase the service life of Mirages by 15-20 yrs
I Say dont upgrade the mirages and retire them in 2020 instead of planned 2030
and buy 126+36 Gripen NG
Navy can then opt for F35B/C for Nmrca DEAL
 
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I am a big favourite of EFT, RAFELE, F/A/-18F winning MMRCA. whilst there a ae people complaint the EFT lacks A2G capability I don't know why that is an issue as this was only a problem in tranche 1-2 not 3 which is the one offered to India.

Just one Q, if the Rafele is inducted what kind of future growth is there in the platform? EADs say India will become their 5th partner and they have big plans for future tranches/upgrades, Boeing has the international Super Hornet road map with many future upgrades that will be available to IAF. What about the Rafele? I know there are plans for AESA but beyond that?
 
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I am a big favourite of EFT, RAFELE, F/A/-18F winning MMRCA. whilst there a ae people complaint the EFT lacks A2G capability I don't know why that is an issue as this was only a problem in tranche 1-2 not 3 which is the one offered to India.

Just one Q, if the Rafele is inducted what kind of future growth is there in the platform? EADs say India will become their 5th partner and they have big plans for future tranches/upgrades, Boeing has the international Super Hornet road map with many future upgrades that will be available to IAF. What about the Rafele? I know there are plans for AESA but beyond that?

Dassault itself is in big problem now ... Still they havent linked a deal for Mirage upgrade... IAF will one day say enough of Mirage lets buy more of MMRCA... and Dassault is going to be in a big problem then... They are still in 90's era of super power.. "buy what we give".. absolutely pathetic .....
 
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Does anyone know why there are NO pictures of MMRCA field trials in India?? It would have awesome to see these flying in the deserts of Rajasthan or the mountains of Kashmir with IAF pilots/aircrew, operating out of IAF airfields.
 
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so , it will take 40month to upgrade first 4 in france then rest will upgraded in india..

how much time it will take , ...and how long the planes will fly after that..?

at $40ml , why not buy MIG-35 with AESA radar..
or simplly just LCA...

I think it could be because its battle tested (Kargil) successfully. But there could be more to it, IAF should clarify why they prefer upgrading Mirage rather than buying more MMRCA/LCA/Sukhoi?
I don't believe that Mig-35 would be good idea, its just a prototype as of now, even more since there are none in Russian air force. The future (road map) looks rather bleak for Mig-35.
 
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I think IAF should take a Firm stand on this issue , if the contract is signed now , then first upgraded aircraft will be delivered in 2014 and last one could be delivered in 2018 ,
These upgrades were meant to increase the service life of Mirages by 15-20 yrs
I Say dont upgrade the mirages and retire them in 2020 instead of planned 2030
and buy 126+36 Gripen NG
Navy can then opt for F35B/C for Nmrca DEAL

I think going for MMRCA would be one way to go, but hoping to get F-35 in future is not so good idea. India has already invested in FGFA and imagine the horror of having MMRCA, Su-30, LCA, FGFA, AMCA, and additional F-35 :woot: So many platforms, vendors, spares to keep up.

Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik indicated today that the potential multiplicity of aircraft types in his fleet inventory was a major cause for concern, and that by the end of the decade, the IAF would hopefully have an inventory of just five fighter types: the upgraded Su-30MKI (272), the MMRCA (126), the PAK FA/Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (200-250), the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (100)and the Tejas MK-II (150-200). "If it were upto me, I would have a single aircraft type. But we don't live in a perfect world," the Air Chief said.
Livefist: Multiplicity Of Fighter Inventory A Nightmare: IAF Chief
 
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Why Eurofighter Gets No Respect
by James Dunnigan
March 28, 2011

Faced with more large cuts in its budget, Britain's Royal Air Force fears the worst. Over a decade of cutting corners because of similar economy moves is catching up with RAF. For example, a recent government investigation revealed that a lack of spare parts for the new Eurofighter limited the amount of time pilots could spend in the air. This, in turn, led to only eight pilots being certified as qualified to perform ground attack duties in the Eurofighter. While the Eurofighter is mainly an air-superiority ("fighter") aircraft, there is very little call for that sort of thing at the moment. Ground attack, on the other hand, is very much in demand. The RAF currently has 62 Eurofighters, an aircraft that will replace about 120 remaining Tornados.
Two years ago, Germany and Britain decided to cut back on the number of Eurofighters they will buy. Thus the final 37 Eurofighters Germany agreed to buy for its Luftwaffe (air force), will instead be offered for export. Germany would have preferred to just cancel the final 37 aircraft, but this would have resulted in over a billion dollars in cancellation fees. But the export option will hurt the Eurofighter project, as Germany will sell their 37 aircraft for whatever they can get, thus denying the Eurofighter consortium export sales.

Also in 2009, Britain decided to not take all of its third batch (or "tranche", as they like to call it in Europe) of 88 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. This will cost Britain $2 billion in increased maintenance costs and penalties. Britain will take 40 of the fighters from the third batch, and resell another 24 to Saudi Arabia. In effect, Britain is pulling out of the Eurofighter program, and cancelling 16 of the aircraft it was to have received from the third batch. The British government believes that 184 Eurofighters will be sufficient, and that it cannot afford any more than that.

Originally, Britain planned to buy 232 (Germany was to get 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87.) Britain already has 144 Eurofighters on order from the first two batches, and will end up with 184. There are currently 260 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters in service, four years after it first entered service.

Development of the Eurofighter began in the 1980s, and the first flight took place in 1994. Each aircraft costs over $120 million, including development costs. Current estimates indicate that about 600 will eventually be built. The Typhoon is a somewhat stealthy multi-role fighter. It is fast, maneuverable, and carries a lot of weapons. It also can be used for attack missions. This 23 ton aircraft will be the principal fighter in the air forces of Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy. The Typhoon is closer in capability to the F-15, than the F-22, and is competing with the F-35 for many export sales. The Typhoon was recently purchased by Saudi Arabia, mainly to provide protection from Iran.

But some users, like Britain and Germany, see no urgent demand for the new Eurofighter. So when it comes time to make budget cuts, spare parts for the Eurofighter, and fuel to get pilots in the air for training, are among the first things to go.
 
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EUobserver / Libya strikes showcase French warplane
ANDREW RETTMAN

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Many commentators believe the Libya air strikes are a pre-election advert for President Nicolas Sarkozy. Some believe they are also an advert for France's badly-selling Rafale jet fighter.

Several EU diplomats and even one foreign minister speaking off the record in Brussels in the run-up to the Libya campaign pointed to next year's French presidential elections as a big reason for Sarkozy's enthusiasm to take on Libyan dictator Colonel Gaddafi.

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Dassault spokesman: 'the Rafale is the only aircraft in the world which has an omnirole - it can do air combat, bombardment, observation.

But looking in detail at French operations in Libya, military analysts have also said that France is using the war to promote its badly-selling €60-million-per-unit Rafale fighter.

Rafale jets fired the symbolic first shot against Gaddafi at 17.45 Libyan time on 19 March, destroying four tanks on the outskirts of Benghazi. The strike took place three hours before the US and UK began bombarding Gaddafi anti-aircraft bases, with the French ministry of defence swiftly posting a set of Rafale pictures on its website.

David Cenciotti, an Italian jet-fighter-pilot-turned-analyst, told EUobserver that the Rafale strikes were highly irregular because in a normal operation the anti-air-defence bombardment would have come first.

"The French intervention is, among other things, aimed at putting the Rafale under the spotlight," he said. "For sure, the French air force was confident that Benghazi was free of SAM [surface-to-air-missile] sites, but I think it was mainly a demo."

The Rafale fighter already got its 'battle proven' stamp in Afghanistan in 2007 and will have little chance to show off in air-to-air combat in Libya: the only Gaddafi plane it destroyed so far was an old Yugoslav-made Galeb hit while on the ground.

Jean-Pierre Maulny, the co-director of the Paris-based Institute for Strategic and International Relations (Iris), explained that Libya is better in promotional terms than Afghanistan, however.

"Nobody speaks about the Rafale in Afghanistan because people don't understand the Afghanistan conflict and its objectives so well. In Libya it's very clear - we are trying to stop a dictator from killing his people. Positive French public opinion, the way the French press is reporting on this war, it all creates a certain reaction abroad," he said.

"The decision to make the first strike was a political one, not a tactical one," he added. "Promoting the Rafale is not a primary objective, but it is a secondary effect."

For his part, Paul Holtum, an expert at the Swedish arms-control NGO Sipri, added: "I understand that the 'marketing possibilities' have also been discussed with regard to a Swedish decision on whether to send the Gripen for action over Libya ... However, the air campaign might be of more interest with regard to markets for advanced missiles and guided bombs rather than combat aircraft."

Rafale manufacturer, the Paris-based Dassault Aviation, has so far sold almost 300 of the planes to the French military but not a single one to another country.

Dassault is in talks to sell 60 to anti-Gaddafi coalition partner the United Arab Emirates and 36 to Brazil. Up until late February, it was in talks to sell 14 to Gaddafi himself.

Company spokesman Stephane Fort told this website that the Cenciotti theory is "propaganda not reality." He said the Rafale was used to hit Gaddafi's tanks because it was right for the job: "The Rafale is the only aircraft in the world which has an omnirole - it can do air combat, bombardment, observation. All this in one flight, with one pilot in one plane."

French diplomats and members of the French military establishment also rejected the theory.

The former chief of the French air force, General Jean Rannou, told EUobserver: "It was not in any way a communications mission. Benghazi was hemmed in by Gaddafi tanks. If we hadn't struck quickly on Saturday, they would have entered the city and it would have been too late."

He added: "Gaddafi's air defences were not so dangerous, so the risk we took was not big."

As for Sarkozy's re-election, French contacts pointed out that Libya is "a gamble" because if the war turns ugly it could harm him in the polls.

Libya in any case did nothing for his centre-right UMP party in local elections on Sunday (27 March), when the opposition Socialist party stormed to victory on 36 percent.

"This election was dominated by worries about the economic situation in France. But I think international issues, foreign policy will be a bigger factor in the presidential elections next year," the Iris think-tank's Maulny said.
 
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Typical, you proved once again that you have the stamina and guile to convolute the discussion to cover up your repeated attempts to deceive the reader.

It's not my fault when you have no arguments and come with such funny stuff that a targeting pod is used for escorts, just to distract from the fact that no EW pods were available.


AASM kits are available in three version

SBU-38 GPS + INS (with CEP <10 meters)
SBU-54 GPS + INS + IR (with CEP of 1 to 5 meters)
SBU-64 GPS + INS + Laser (with CEP of 1 to 5 meters)

The problem is, that the laser version is still under development and testing phase only and was never ordered by the French government. :disagree:


French Mirage 2000 carries a Dassault SABRE (Systeme de Autoprotection par BRouillage Electromagnetiques) jamming pod below the tail fin, the antenna is located just above exhaust nozzle.

LOL, so the internal EW system of the Mirage is protecting the Rafale?
So why the F18 Growler needs dedicated external jamming pods and ECM wingtip pods, when internal systems are enough?
You are so desperate! :lol:


Try to stay focused, you claimed the Rafale went in unsupported on day 1 of the conflict. I established that it was accompanied by the Mirage 2000, so why does the Rafale deserve your praise and not the Mirage?

Who said they need it? Mirage 2000s are excellent multi role fighters (that's what I always said and why I support the M2K upgrade), that (except of recon, deep penetration strike missions) served in the same air defense and CAS missions that Rafale did as well. The only difference is that they use LGBs, while Rafale AASM. You forget that the Mirage is still the prime fighter in high numbers of French airforce, but both serves in the same roles today, alongside each other.

I can only repeat it, just look at the official statements, even from YOUR own government:


Defense.gov News Transcript: DOD News Briefing with Vice Adm. Gortney from the Pentagon on Libya Operation Odyssey Dawn


5:42 - Q: So it has not yet begun enforcement?

VADM GORTNEY: That’s a tough one to say based on how you call – do we have airplanes patrolling over Libya to enforce a no-fly zone? No, ma’am, we do not. But I would say we are beginning that because we’re setting the conditions to be able to reach that state.


7:16 - Q: just to be clear, there are no U.S. aircraft involved at this point ?

VADM GORTNEY: No U.S. aircraft over land at this time. No, ma’am

Q: And no involved in air strikes right now?

VADM GORTNEY: Not at this particular time. No, ma’am.


8:00 - Q: When did this start in relation to when the French launched their fighter jets? Was this after they had launched, before they launched? Do you anticipate launches will continue? And when you talk about critical nodes, is Gadhafi’s upper echelon command and control considered a critical node of his air defense?

VADM GORTNEY: First question?

Q: When did the Tomahawks first get launched in comparison to when the French --

VADM GORTNEY: It was after the French flew their particular missions the Tomahawks were launched. About a time of flight of about an hour from launch to impact. First impact was at 15:00 Eastern Standard Time.


Facts:

- French fighters made the first strikes, when Libyan air defense was not destroyed and before the cruise missile / B2 strikes began

- No US fighters were involved in these attacks

- No dedicated EW fighters supported that attacks, or recon and air defense missions
 
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It may be Rafale, not F-18..my guess..!!

Not if the article is true and it's about a last minute offer for a higher thrust engine, because the offer to integrate the higher thrust Kaveri - Snecma engine was made years ago and the present M88 engine offers more than enough thrust.


whilst there a ae people complaint the EFT lacks A2G capability I don't know why that is an issue as this was only a problem in tranche 1-2 not 3 which is the one offered to India.

Because so far it is not cleared which weapons and capabilities will be included (funded and integrated) in the Tranche 3, that is on offer for India. The T3As that the partners ordered, are just T2s, with the setups to integrate T3B capabilities later. Neither AESA radar development, nor CFTs, TVC, engine and avionic upgrades, or the integration of Brimstone, Storm Shadow, or Taurus are fixed so far.
As long as the partner countries don't do that, it is a risk for IAF to buy a fighter where they have to pay for most of this upgrade, or that will not have important capabilities!
Look at Libya now, the RAF EFs was upgraded with some basic ground attack capabilities, but are deployed only in the air defense role and escort the Tornados. What does it tell us about the confidence of RAF in the EF and A2G?


Just one Q, if the Rafele is inducted what kind of future growth is there in the platform? EADs say India will become their 5th partner and they have big plans for future tranches/upgrades, Boeing has the international Super Hornet road map with many future upgrades that will be available to IAF. What about the Rafele? I know there are plans for AESA but beyond that?

First of all, India could be a partner in the EF consortium, not EADS! Dassault is very quiet about their offer, they just stated that it will be beyond a buyer seller relations and from Brazil it is reported that Brazil would be the production hub for all Rafales that would be ordered in S. America. We could guess that India could be the same for Asia, or the middle east.
The Super Hornet options has nothing to do with India alone, they are available for any export country, just like the options of EF (TVC, CFTs, weapons, naval EF), or Rafale (HMS, CFTs).
 
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I think it could be because its battle tested (Kargil) successfully. But there could be more to it, IAF should clarify why they prefer upgrading Mirage rather than buying more MMRCA/LCA/Sukhoi?
I don't believe that Mig-35 would be good idea, its just a prototype as of now, even more since there are none in Russian air force. The future (road map) looks rather bleak for Mig-35.

Mirage 2000 is already available and IAF has tremendous experience with it, most MMRCAs will not be ready anytime soon and apart of the Mig and Rafale offer no commonality, which will delay training and induction. LCA MK1 will be available in the next 2 years, but requires time to be proven and ready, not to mention that the M2K-5 will be more capable. We already have ordered many Su 30s to counter the shrinking fleet numbers, caused by phasing out the Migs, with the last batch coming in 2016 only. If we want to replace M2Ks with Su 30s, it would be possible only by 2018, or later, which should make clear why it's a bad idea.
The Mirage 2000 is the 2nd best multi role fighter in the fleet and will be an important bridge to a modernised IAF fleet beyond 2020, that's why IAF wants to have it as capable as possible and why they want a complete overhaul of the fighter (Dassault reportedly offered a cheaper upgrade with less changes, which IAF refused). The only other possibility would be, to overhaul the fighters in France, but integrate cheaper Israeli parts, but as we see at the A50 Phalcon AWACS, the more teams are involved, the higher the risk of delays. So IAF is balancing the upgrade between high capability and low risks, which makes it more costly, but totally worth it!
 
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