Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[truthseeker2010]

When is the decision expected, I have heard that Rafale have already won the competition?

 

[sancho]

When is the decision expected, I have heard that Rafale have already won the competition?

Shortlisting in the next days, or weeks, final decision between this summer and the end of the year.

RBE-2 AESA V/S CAPTOR-E?

Does the RBE-2 AESA have only 1001 T/R Modules due to the small size of the cone of the Rafale?Is this true?Also how would the RBE-2 AESA and Captor-E compare?

Thales says around 1000, the figures discussed in different forums are 850+ modules. Compared to the Captor - E it will have a clear performance disadvantage (although the final design of Captor - E is still not fixed yet), because of the way bigger diameter, which translates into higher number of modules and longer range. The swashplate design, also gives the advantage of a wider angle of the field of view, but on the other side the disadvantage of more mechanical parts, which needs more maintenance.
When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet. The radar will not be ready in time for the first MMRCA deliveries, maybe even delays the licence production. Aviationweek reported after Farnborough, that the early Captor - E will be not mature and very limited in modes (most likely only A2A modes). The Captor M so far has AFAIK no air to sea modes, which is logical, because the EF partners don't needs them, beceause EF will not be used in the maritime attack role.

The EF and its techs are very high capable and has a high potential, but the problem is, that this translates into high costs as well. Combined with the financial problems of the partner countries, it is clear why they need us as a partner, because we would have to pay for additional A2G capabilities, CFTs, AESA and it's modes...
We will be a partner (mainly for production of parts) and therefor have to fund parts of the development, in this case of further developments and upgrades.
That all needs time and has a risk of delays, but this is exaclty what IAF don't wanted from the start! They want a fighter with good multi role capabilities, that is proven, ready and fast to induct, which all speakes against the EF.

 

[GareebNawaz]

Are we still planning for 126+ aircraft say around 200 planes?

There was even a thread saying we are going to buy 260 and split it amongst to com
Petitors

 

[kingdurgaking]

Shortlisting in the next days, or weeks, final decision between this summer and the end of the year.




Thales says around 1000, the figures discussed in different forums are 850+ modules. Compared to the Captor - E it will have a clear performance disadvantage (although the final design of Captor - E is still not fixed yet), because of the way bigger diameter, which translates into higher number of modules and longer range. The swashplate design, also gives the advantage of a wider angle of the field of view, but on the other side the disadvantage of more mechanical parts, which needs more maintenance.
When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet. The radar will not be ready in time for the first MMRCA deliveries, maybe even delays the licence production. Aviationweek reported after Farnborough, that the early Captor - E will be not mature and very limited in modes (most likely only A2A modes). The Captor M so far has AFAIK no air to sea modes, which is logical, because the EF partners don't needs them, beceause EF will not be used in the maritime attack role.

The EF and its techs are very high capable and has a high potential, but the problem is, that this translates into high costs as well. Combined with the financial problems of the partner countries, it is clear why they need us as a partner, because we would have to pay for additional A2G capabilities, CFTs, AESA and it's modes...
We will be a partner (mainly for production of parts) and therefor have to fund parts of the development, in this case of further developments and upgrades.
That all needs time and has a risk of delays, but this is exaclty what IAF don't wanted from the start! They want a fighter with good multi role capabilities, that is proven, ready and fast to induct, which all speakes against the EF.

Regarding Captor-E .... what is provided to india?... it has to be definitely AESA

 

[palash_kol]

Boeing Gets India OK For Four More P-8I Maritime Planes
By Nikhil Gulati and Santanu Choudhury
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

On the Indian Air Force contract for 126 combat planes, Chadwick said the deal is expected to be awarded later this year or early next year. "I think with best intentions, the IAF will want to get to the finish line sooner rather than later, but what they want to ensure is that the process they take to the final selection is fair," he said.

Six companies worldwide have been chosen to bid for the estimated $10 billion fighter jet contract, the largest in the world for 15 years. Lockheed and Boeing are pitted against aircraft from United Aircraft Corp., France's Dassault Aviation SA, pan-European manufacturer Eurofighter Typhoon Gmbh and Sweden's Saab AB.

Chadwick said if Boeing is selected for the fighter jet contract, it is in a position to rapidly deliver the planes to India. "We have the ability to provide a more rapid production approach for the IAF, should they choose to do it, that can get aircraft quicker into their inventory than they planned," he said. "We can ramp up and still work with partners to deliver those quicker."

 

[saumyasupratik]

Thales says around 1000, the figures discussed in different forums are 850+ modules. Compared to the Captor - E it will have a clear performance disadvantage (although the final design of Captor - E is still not fixed yet), because of the way bigger diameter, which translates into higher number of modules and longer range. The swashplate design, also gives the advantage of a wider angle of the field of view, but on the other side the disadvantage of more mechanical parts, which needs more maintenance.
When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet. The radar will not be ready in time for the first MMRCA deliveries, maybe even delays the licence production. Aviationweek reported after Farnborough, that the early Captor - E will be not mature and very limited in modes (most likely only A2A modes). The Captor M so far has AFAIK no air to sea modes, which is logical, because the EF partners don't needs them, beceause EF will not be used in the maritime attack role.

The EF and its techs are very high capable and has a high potential, but the problem is, that this translates into high costs as well. Combined with the financial problems of the partner countries, it is clear why they need us as a partner, because we would have to pay for additional A2G capabilities, CFTs, AESA and it's modes...
We will be a partner (mainly for production of parts) and therefor have to fund parts of the development, in this case of further developments and upgrades.
That all needs time and has a risk of delays, but this is exaclty what IAF don't wanted from the start! They want a fighter with good multi role capabilities, that is proven, ready and fast to induct, which all speakes against the EF.

Yeah many forums say instead of 1000 it only has 834-850 but they aren't sure because maybe the image posted can be a mockup or only a prototype.Also thales cleverly say's closer to 1000 not exactly 1000 so maybe it only has 850 T/R modules.The modules are made up of Galium Arsenide does that make a difference?If possible could you provide the detection capabilities of the RBE-2 AESA against a 3m^2 target I don't think it's going to be more than 200KM's at most

Shouldn't the Rafale have smaller RCS than Typhoon due to extensive use of composites and the intake design?Also the SPECTRA would be of a lot of use here.So wouldn't capabilities be enough to compensate for the smaller diameter Radar?

In comparison to the Rafale RBE-2 AESA how many T/R modules will the CAPTOR-E have?The Captor-E is only going to be integrated in the Tranche 3B Typhoons for the RAF I believe?

Rafale F4 is going to RBE-2 AESA and M88-X with 90KN thrust along with newer OSF, SPECTRA and HMD with viewfinder?They've been improving it for the Emritereans?Which variants of the Typhoon and Rafale were offered for the MMRCA specifically?

 

[angeldemon_007]

When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet.

Eurofighter group has approved the aesa radar finally by the end of 2010. It is now funded...

FARNBOROUGH: Eurofighter gets AESA radar deal, but Italy looks to F-35

 

[bhagat]

New offset rules won’t apply to multi-role fighter contract: MoD


The Defence Ministry has decided that new rules that relax defence offset obligations to include the civil aviation and internal security sectors will not apply to the upcoming $10 billion contract for medium multi-role combat aircraft.
After considering a report of an expert committee constituted to look into the merits of applying the new offset rules to the multi-billion dollar contract that requires the winner to pump back 50 per cent of the contract value into the Indian market, the Defence Ministry has decided that older rules restricting the investment to the defence sector will remain in force.

The committee was set up after representations by the defence industry that argued the Indian market is not mature enough to absorb offsets to the tune of $5 billion that are expected to come in when the winner of the deal is announced.

In fact, all six contenders were asked to hold their offset proposals as the decision was being taken.

In the new Defence Procurement Policy announced earlier this year, the ministry opened the offsets field from the defence sector to include civil aviation and internal security.

As per government estimates, the value of offset contracts is expected to exceed Rs 10,000 crore in the 11th plan.

It is learnt that the defence minster was in favour of strengthening the domestic defence sector and dismissed suggestions that the winning contender also be allowed to invest in the aviation and internal security sectors.

The decision comes as the Defence Ministry is in the final stages of selecting contenders who will go into the next stage of commercial negotiations.

Air Chief Marshal PV Naik had been on record to say the finalists for the deal to supply 126 new fighters to the Air Force would be announced by the end of March.

He said that he was “extremely hopeful” that the contract would be finalised by the time he retired in July.

While there is anticipation that a “down select” will be made shortly, sources say that there is no pressure on the Defence Ministry to take a hasty decision.

In fact, contenders are likely to be asked to extent their commercial offers that are set to expire by the end of April by one more year.

The ministry is, however, certain that it will conclude the contract in the coming financial year

New offset rules won’t apply to multi-role fighter contract: MoD

 

[SpArK]

Polish Vipers.... Wonderful view..​

 

[sancho]

Yeah many forums say instead of 1000 it only has 834-850 but they aren't sure because maybe the image posted can be a mockup or only a prototype.Also thales cleverly say's closer to 1000 not exactly 1000 so maybe it only has 850 T/R modules.The modules are made up of Galium Arsenide does that make a difference?If possible could you provide the detection capabilities of the RBE-2 AESA against a 3m^2 target I don't think it's going to be more than 200KM's at most

Shouldn't the Rafale have smaller RCS than Typhoon due to extensive use of composites and the intake design?Also the SPECTRA would be of a lot of use here.So wouldn't capabilities be enough to compensate for the smaller diameter Radar?

In comparison to the Rafale RBE-2 AESA how many T/R modules will the CAPTOR-E have?The Captor-E is only going to be integrated in the Tranche 3B Typhoons for the RAF I believe?

Rafale F4 is going to RBE-2 AESA and M88-X with 90KN thrust along with newer OSF, SPECTRA and HMD with viewfinder?They've been improving it for the Emritereans?Which variants of the Typhoon and Rafale were offered for the MMRCA specifically?

Exactly there is a lot of discussion about it, but based only on pics that are available on the net (and imo are PS). The GaN modules that are under development now by EADS and Thales, are more capable and will improve the radar detection range of the RBE 2 AESA in later batches and there is also talk about AESA arrays placed around the airframe of the Rafale, to get 360° radar detection (not official though), maybe similar to what the Russians plan at Pak Fa. That would counter the swashplate advantage of the Captor - E, but still I think it will remain inferior in detection range (no official number for RBE 2 AESA range, but it's expected at 140Km for such a target).
Captor - E design as I said is still not fixed and the number of modules rumored goes up to 1400, while most of the other radars have 1000.
All EF tranche 3A that are on order so far, will have the normal Captor M radar. The UK had funded an AESA demonstrator, for flight tests, but that's it. The partners didn't funded the radar development, nor did they ordered the T3B fighters, which will get AESA radar and it will depend completely on Indias decision, what the future of EF will be.
If India don't buy the EF, it is likely that the partners cancel their T3B orders (Italy already did it in favour for F35s) and will retro fit AESA during later upgrades in there present T2 and T3As.
That is the same faith the Gripen is going through, because Swedish forces will order Gripen E/F only when an export customer orders it, otherwise they simply upgrade their older fighters with some techs that are tested now in the Gripen NG demonstrator.

All Eurocanards are developed with high ammounts of composites and RAM materials, EF has also ducted air intakes, just like the Rafale, so the biggste advantage here is the smaller size. On the other hand, the fixed fuel probe of Rafale increase the RCS again (at least compared to clean configs), both are expected below 1m² in clean configs.
As I explained in ealier posts, the French went with a smaller radar on purpose, because they plan with multiple sensors for the future, not only the radar. They can detect enemy radars with SPECTRA from distances and even guide weapons at them, so they counter the smaller diameter with other detection capabilities.

Rafale F3+ will have an upgrade M88 engine, but the upgrade is for less costs, not for more thrust, but Dassault offered us since years the integration of Kaveri - Snecma engine if we buy Rafale.
The M88-3, -9, or -X with 90kN is not needed for the French forces and their aims with Rafale, the UAE instead wants higher payloads and therefor needs more thrust, so that is not included in the MMRCA offer.
What exactly the EF T3 includes is hard to say, because the EF partners still didn't fixed the development yet and as I said above, it will depend on India mainly. If we join as a partner, we have to fund certain things and if we want more capabilites, it's of course free for us to fund more.
From the techs and capabilities that are cleared and funded, the Rafale offers one of the best (imo even the best) package in the competition. If India would go for it, we should fund the integration of HMS, Indian weapons like Sudharshan LGB, or Helina ATGM, the Kaveri engine and CFTs.

Eurofighter group has approved the aesa radar finally by the end of 2010. It is now funded...

FARNBOROUGH: Eurofighter gets AESA radar deal, but Italy looks to F-35

Not correct, the EF consortium (the companies) pre-funded the AESA radar development till this march this year, but anything above is dependent on funds of the partner countries and that is still not cleared.

 

[sancho]

Some new pics and a video of a Rafale strike a Libyan ammunitions depot, showing 4 hits at different targets with AASM, at a single fly over (a capability that seems to be important for IAF, according to some reports):

 

[dbc]

Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime
So what you "think" you would see in the video, is not even produced or integrated into the Rafales of French forces.

La version INS/GPS/laser sera produite en série à partir de la fin 2012

Yes series production or mass production may begin end of 2012 when SAGEM have sufficient orders for SBU-64 kits to justify investment in a production line. The French have ordered 300 units so far this is not enough to begin series production.
The video is sufficient evidence for me, the seeker on the AASM is unmistakably laser, but if you prefer to believe a blog that is your choice.

Mass production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sancho]

The video is sufficient evidence for me, the seeker on the AASM is unmistakably laser, but if you prefer to believe a blog that is your choice.

So what are my choices? On the one hand the rafale newsblog, that clearly has more knowledge of French fighters and weapons than you have, as well as the official press release of Sagem (the manufacturer of AASM), stating that the weapon will be produced only 2012 onwards and on the other side I have your eyes.

I think it's obvious who is more reliable and I would suggest to get some new glasses!

 

[sancho]

Ministry posers tie down jet deal - Questions to competing vendors for one of the single-largest military orders

SUJAN DUTTA


New Delhi, March 31: The Indian Air Force’s seven-year effort to buy 126 medium multi-role combat planes — one of the single-largest military orders in the world — is for now mired in a flurry of questions that the defence ministry has asked the competing vendors.

This could result in a delay in signing the contract even after the IAF has completed evaluating and ranking the six aircraft in the competition, a senior air headquarters source has said.

Last month, at the Aero India exhibition in Bangalore, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik said: “The contract negotiation committee (CNC) is likely to start in a week or two and the contract is likely to be signed by September.”

Then on March 10 he said: “The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year.”

But today, on the last day of the current financial year, the air headquarters officer said there was no intimation from the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) on the choice of the aircraft.

Indeed, in the defence ministry itself, there are conflicting views on whether a CNC will at all be required.

Defence minister A.K. Antony insists that the acquisition of the aircraft be transparent and comply with the Defence Procurement Policy (DPP). The DPP allows for both — the formation of a CNC or the selection of major procurements “for strategic considerations” without the lengthier process of bargaining over the price.

Eight global powers are backing their respective companies in the high-stakes game to win the Indian Air Force order that looks set to top $ 12 billion.

The US is supporting Lockheed Martin and Boeing with the F-16IN Super Viper and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain are backing the Eurofighter Typhoon; France has pitched Dassault Aviation’s Rafale; Sweden, the Saab Gripen and Russia the RAC MiG 35.

When Naik said in Bangalore that he expected the contract to be signed by September, he qualified it by adding that “dissatisfied vendors put a spoke in the wheel” — meaning that a losing contender may manipulate allegations that would lead to long-winded investigations and further hold-ups.

This is worrisome for the IAF because its fighter fleet is being steadily depleted.

The IAF has an “authorised” strength of 42 fighter squadrons. Unofficial sources say that it is making do with just 30 now and in three years that could come down to 27, blunting its numerical superiority over Pakistan’s (and considerably less than that of China’s).

The IAF completed the flight evaluation trials by a crack team of test pilots in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh and the weapons’ firing trials in the manufacturers’ choice of ranges last year. It submitted its report and evaluation of the aircraft on nearly 600 counts in July.

The IAF officer said that the process required the flight evaluation trial (FET) report to be examined at first and then a study of the commercial, offset (re-investment) and transfer of technology offers. The ‘offset’ requirement for the contract lays down that the vendor must source and/or plough-back 50 per cent of the value of the order (of more than Rs 42,000 crore) from Indian companies.

The commercial bids are due to expire at the end of April this year. If a choice is not made by then, the bids will have to be re-submitted and the vendors will have to be asked to keep it valid for another year till April 2012.

The tender requires that deliveries of 18 of the 126 aircraft be made in “flyaway” condition. The balance 106 are to be manufactured under license and transfer of technology in India, inevitably with the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in 36 to 48 months from the signing of the contract.

The Requests for Information (RFI) for the aircraft were first sent out in 2004.

Already, IAF headquarters has noted with concern, there have been disconcerting events that threaten the process of the procurement. In December, a file on the “offsets” proposal went missing till it was found on a South Delhi street.

Last month, the country manager of one of the possible vendors, Dassault Aviation (Rafale), was suspected of illegal liaisoning with an IAF officer in Bangalore.

The defence minister himself is uncomfortable with US Ambassador Timothy Roemer’s statement that the India-US strategic partnership hinged largely on an American company winning the contract. And a UK audit report has found that there is a shortage of spares that limits flying time of pilots on the Eurofighter Typhoon.

IAF sources say that while prudence demands that the decision be a studied one, they worry that the longer the process, the more there could be controversies even as the fighter fleet gets depleted.

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Ministry posers tie down jet deal

 

[dbc]

So what are my choices? On the one hand the rafale newsblog, that clearly has more knowledge of French fighters and weapons than you have, as well as the official press release of Sagem (the manufacturer of AASM), stating that the weapon will be produced only 2012 onwards and on the other side I have your eyes.

I think it's obvious who is more reliable and I would suggest to get some new glasses!

I don't need glasses, but you definitely need an education to figure out what serial production means.