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Read the notes I geve on SC and EF has better weapons, the radar will of course be very close to MKI, just like the Captor M is now, but EF has a way lower RCS, which means it detects MKI earlier and will shoot the better weapon first!
On what basis are you arguing that MKI is better in WVR? Canards, high TWR, speed, HMS + WVR missile? EF has it all too, but is way lighter as well. If you assuming this only because of TVC, I think you are a bit overestimating it, Su 35BM should be a better match to EF in this regard.


Where did you get that from? Flankers have an external payload of 8t!

Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki

Empty weight: 18,400 kg
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg

see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...

b.t.w i was asking talking about detection and firing.. what EFT weapons has so that it can fire more than 200 km? nothing.. MKI will detect EFT atleast by 100 KM and it has got archer.. the same distance it AIM or Meteor can take over now with Novotar i think it will surely eat EFT... this is what my argument on BVR... while in WVR.. you know the power plant of MKI? w.r.t to EFT it is way too huge and in WVR i dont think any Fighter RCS or Infra red will have any effect .. it is detected even F-22 will be detected and for sure MKI can carry more Infra red /WVR weapons compared to EFT .. and it can engage more EFT at the same time... so you mean to say EFT will kick of MKI.. MKI to can Kick of more EFT easily very easily... You forgot a basic thing.. Russians usually concentrated on agility and manouveours ... i doubt your claim on EFT..
 
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Lol yeah man.... Coz su-30 is indeed Gods gift to aviation... and so r PAK-FA and LCA.

Never said that... But when people make wrong claims and pass judgements out of extrapolated data without giving it any thought ..it pisses me off... you are entitled to your opinion ..

Lets not make this f16 vs MKI thing
 
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Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki

Empty weight: 18,400 kg
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg

see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...

b.t.w i was asking talking about detection and firing.. what EFT weapons has so that it can fire more than 200 km? nothing.. MKI will detect EFT atleast by 100 KM and it has got archer.. the same distance it AIM or Meteor can take over now with Novotar i think it will surely eat EFT... this is what my argument on BVR... while in WVR.. you know the power plant of MKI? w.r.t to EFT it is way too huge and in WVR i dont think any Fighter RCS or Infra red will have any effect .. it is detected even F-22 will be detected and for sure MKI can carry more Infra red /WVR weapons compared to EFT .. and it can engage more EFT at the same time... so you mean to say EFT will kick of MKI.. MKI to can Kick of more EFT easily very easily... You forgot a basic thing.. Russians usually concentrated on agility and manouveours ... i doubt your claim on EFT..

Lets not bring F22 in here...one on one MKI is good against everything but F22...
 
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the total weapon payload is 14t , out of which this 8t can be carried on wings the rest 6t will be carried within as dumb bombs ..

Not really:

Aircraft performance

Maximum ordnance, kg 8,000

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-30



Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki

Empty weight: 18,400 kg
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg

see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...


That explains the wrong figure!

The MTOW of Su 30 MK versions are 34.5t, the external payload on the 12 weapon stations 8t (which is the same for all Su 30 versions, Su 34 and Su 35). The MTOW can be increased depending on customised equipment that is integrated (canards, TVC, more internal fuel...), but the payload for the hardpoints remains the same, because it is dependent on the loads the hardpoints can carry, not what the whole fighter can carry!
Here is an example, the heaviest weapon MKI can use at the moment is KAB 1500, but it can carry only a total of 3 because only the centerline and the inner wing stations are able to carry such loads.
Lets add 4 x Kh 31 (1 under each intake and 1 each wing), so another 2400Kg and all that is left are 4 x hardpoints for AAMs (lets say 600Kg) => around 7500Kg payload!


Will add more on that later tonight, not time now, but just to make you think about it. The EF is not like an F16, just a smaller fighter, but was developed exactly to counter Russian Mig 29 and Flankers. Unlike the US, the Europeans highly focused on maneuverability for dogfights as well and the EF is the counterpart of Europe for Russian Flankers, or US F15s. High thrust, low wingloading, very good TWR, big radar, weaponload config geared on A2A, not to mention the canard design to increase maneverability!
In all these points, the EF is far away from beeing less capable then the MKI, that lacks behind at 2 main points, weight and RCS!


More later, Cya!
 
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Oh regarding conspiracies:

MMRCA goes hot : the Rafale team under bribery attacks

The tension surrounding the Indian deal is increasing fast since it has been announced that the shortlist could be made public next month.
Rumors of bribery attempts during Aero India have surfaced : Apparently, an India officer in charge of the static display tried to get money from Dassault in exchange of a better slot on the parking. Dassault complained to the Aero India authorities who set a trap to catch the man when he came to get the money. What is very odd is the amount of the bribe asked by the officer, which is ridiculous (less than $500)
One might wonder why someone would take risks for such a small price unless, may be, it was a deliberate attempt to discredit Dassault.

A quite similar case occured during the final run of the Korean contest in 2002. The Dassault Rafale was then competing against the Boeing F-15K. After the end of the technical evaluation, the Rafale was leading the race and Dassault was suddenly accused to have bribed a Korean officer to promote the Rafale offer. It is worth noting that the bribe in question was also very low ($8,300) and eventually proved to be bogus.

It seems that the history is repeating in India and that the game is once again turning dirty. Since the begining of the MMRCA competition, the Indian authorities have insisted on the fact that bribery would not be tolerated. In this context, one tricky mind might try to manipulate his competitors and lead them to make an illegal move that would disqualify them..

Rafale News: MMRCA goes hot : the Rafale team under bribery attacks
 
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8t maximum payload is for the external 12 wing stations..

but the figures also tells you about maximum internal fuel which is 9640kg , whereas if the fuel be filled at nornal levels of 5270kg..this difference can be utilize to carry the internal weapon load of 4t..
infect when it said that su-30mki can carry 32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs each weight 120kg , it clearly means that it is the internal weapon load capacity of 4t..
 
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"MKIs were no match to their new f16s" I appreciate your sense of humor
Let me guess, you are still hearing those old news where Su30 beat F16. Let me tell you the last couple years update of Red flag.
After those previous losses in exercises USAF fielded their latest F16 which had aesa and all. The result were Su30 became to vulnerable. I just gave example, Rafale and EF were able to beat Su30 without aesa during the exercises not to mention the block 52 and block 60 F16 hs mny changes apart from aesa.

I hope you guys also understood that air superiority concept.
 
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Let me guess, you are still hearing those old news where Su30 beat F16. Let me tell you the last couple years update of Red flag.
After those previous losses in exercises USAF fielded their latest F16 which had aesa and all. The result were Su30 became to vulnerable. I just gave example, Rafale and EF were able to beat Su30 without aesa during the exercises not to mention the block 52 and block 60 F16 hs mny changes apart from aesa.

I hope you guys also understood that air superiority concept.

USAF F-16's are not AESA equipped, when did this become a F-16 vs MKI thread?
 
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8t maximum payload is for the external 12 wing stations..

but the figures also tells you about maximum internal fuel which is 9640kg , whereas if the fuel be filled at nornal levels of 5270kg..this difference can be utilize to carry the internal weapon load of 4t..
infect when it said that su-30mki can carry 32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs each weight 120kg , it clearly means that it is the internal weapon load capacity of 4t..

Don't just guess and speculate when the official Sukhoi site clears says 8000Kg payload and please think about it logically, because you are mistaken on several points!

1) Only stealth fighter has internal and external payloads, the one for the internal weapon bays, the other for the external wingstations.

2) Internal fuel and payload has no relation and that is pretty easy to understand, when you think about it logically.
The maximum internal fuel is 9640Kg, so if the MKI carries only 4 x AAMs (around 600Kg), does it mean that the internal fuel can be increased for 7400Kg?
Of course not, because the fuel tank is only big enough to carry 9640Kg, that's why it's called maximum internal fuel!

And you can turn it around as well, if you carry only half the fuel, does it mean you can carry a higher load on the wingtipstation?
Of course not, because it has a load limit that allows only AAMs on this station and no matter what the load on other hardpoints, or the internal fuel tank are, you can only carry this specific load on this hardpoint!

3) Here you can see the weaponload config of Su 30 versions and as you can see, the 32 bombs are located at the centerline, air intake and mid wing hardpoints:

http://www.knaapo.ru/media/rus/about/production/military/Su-30MK2_sheme_b_eng.gif


Once again, the payload of the Flanker is 8000Kg, which is the addition of the load limit, from all 12 hardpoints!
 
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Regarding your TWR calculations, you have different figures of internal fuel for single and twin engine fighters. While it is full internal fuel for some, it is only 75% for others, so equal basic specs are important!

A normal A2A config for MMRCA (Mig 29K because it was fielded in the trials and no reliable specs of Mig 35 are available), would be 4 x AAMs (= 600Kg) and the a 1250l (1000Kg) centerline fuel tank, while MKI carries same weapon load, but only 5000Kg internal fuel and all fighters with dry thrust.

Dry thrust / gravitational field strength (9.807 m/s²) / emptyweight + internal fuel + payload = TWR

That translates into this ranking (corrected):

1. EF - 0.70
2. Rafale - 0.65
3. MKI - 0.64 (forgot to add the weaponload)
4. F16IN /Mig 29K - 0.58
6. F18SH - 0.55
7. Gripen NG - 0.53

As we can see the EF is clearly the number one with Rafale 2nd and MKI close 3rd.
That actually is the point, EF was designed for air superiority, just like the Flankers are and therefore are designed with high TWR, low wingloading, high climb rates in mind. In most of these fields it is superior to MKI, because the latter suffers from the weight that was added through twin seat layout, canards, TVC, BARS PESA radar...
The TVC of course will be a benefit in terms of maneuverability, but at basic maneuverability the EF is superior, which makes it more than a match in dogfights.
Even for Rafale it is similar, because although it's not developed mainly for air superiority, it was developed with high maneuverability in mind as well. In most specs in this field it is very equal to MKI, be it TWR as shown above, or climb rates and has even clearly lower wingloadings. Rafale is designed to be good in low speed maneuverability, which makes it good for dogfights and this was shown during ATLC and the combats with F22s (with TVC!)

In BVR the Rafale will rely on the passive detection features mainly, while the radar is clearly inferior to MKI. EF instead offers a very capable Captor M with ranges around 160Km for a 5m² target, BARS is given with up to 200Km for the same target, but the important factor will be the RCS less than 1 vs around 15m²!
Even with the addition of an external fuel tank, the EF will not reach a size that MKI could detected at such maximum ranges. The EF on the other side, will detect MKI way beyond the 160Km, will avoid detection, get closer to the target and shoots first.
That's why I said earlier, that we are not talking about just a smaller fighter like the F16, but a smaller fighter designed for same air superiority role and geared with the same features as well. Even when you compare A2A weapon loads or maximum range, the EF is more than comparable to MKI, 12 x AAMs maximum (10 + fuel tanks) vs 12 x AAMs for the MKI. Ferry range 3700Km vs 3000Km, both offers HMS, capable self protection suits.

One also have to think about the differences that the Su 35BM has compared to Su 30 MKI and that it's more geared for air superiority. Changes like:

- higher thrust engine (SC and 3D TVC capable)
- lower weight and RCS (canards that the early Su 35 had was deleted, just like the vertical stabiliser, or airbrakes, not to forget the advantage of the single seat layout + integration of composites and RAM materials)
- more capable IRBIS-E PESA radar

These features makes it way more comparable (if not superior) to the EF in the air superiority role than the MKI and once again shows where the downsides of MKI lies, compared to such highly capable fighters.
 
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USAF F-16's are not AESA equipped, when did this become a F-16 vs MKI thread?
I read all this from official sources even from AF websites. Are you sure about this ??/
Also we just got carried away with the discussion on ASF, its not F16 vs MKI ...sorry to be off-track...
 
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I read all this from official sources even from AF websites. Are you sure about this ??/
Also we just got carried away with the discussion on ASF, its not F16 vs MKI ...sorry to be off-track...

She is right, the only F16s with AESA so far are UAEs Block 60.
 
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Internal fuel and payload has no relation and that is pretty easy to understand, when you think about it logically.

i never said that the wingstation paylaod can be increased by reducing fuel weight , but load on the centerline between the two air intake could carry addition load by reducing internal fuel load ,
 
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Regarding your TWR calculations, you have different figures of internal fuel for single and twin engine fighters. While it is full internal fuel for some, it is only 75% for others, so equal basic specs are important!

coz twin engine going to comsume twice the fuel compare to single engine for the same range mission , therefore equal basic specs are important...
A normal A2A config for MMRCA (Mig 29K because it was fielded in the trials and no reliable specs of Mig 35 are available), would be 4 x AAMs (= 600Kg) and the a 1250l (1000Kg) centerline fuel tank, while MKI carries same weapon load, but only 5000Kg internal fuel and all fighters with dry thrust.

assuming that all fighter are given same mission..
As we can see the EF is clearly the number one with MKI and Rafale together on 2nd place!
That actually is the point, EF was designed for air superiority, just like the Flankers are and therefore are designed with high TWR, low wingloading, high climb rates in mind. In most of these fields it is superior to MKI,
TWR helps in climping , but for agility , aerodymamic feature plays a decisive role..
 
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